I have not heard of those -- I'll have to check them out
Grappling only vs. knife...
- Thread starter Cruentus
- Start date
I have not heard of those -- I'll have to check them out
KenpoTex
Senior Master
Unarmed against a knife sucks regardless of the context (standing, groundfighting, whatever). In our knife-defense training, we have to train to gain and maintain control of the weapon in all of these areas.
For those of us that carry a knife, it is critical to practice access and deployment from the different positions in which we may find ourselves.
Just like the BJJ mantra "position before submission," we have to create a window to access our weapon, it's not going to be as simple as just pulling it out. Trying to draw and open a folder while being subjected to a "ground 'n' pound" is not fun and if you don't do something to reverse the situation, you may not last long enough to get your weapon into play.
Agreed, I've got Vol. 1 and have found it to be excellent (slight clarification: DLO is a collaboration between Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny of the Dog Brothers, and Gabe Suarez of Suarez International). I really like the fact that they discuss the entire coninuum from weapons defense, to weapon deployment.
The video is worth the price just to see the portions where people tried to draw a weapon before they had established control or had neutralized the threat and got shanked multiple times as a result.
Link to DLO Vol. 1 http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=509
Link to DLO Vol. 2 http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=930
For those of us that carry a knife, it is critical to practice access and deployment from the different positions in which we may find ourselves.
Just like the BJJ mantra "position before submission," we have to create a window to access our weapon, it's not going to be as simple as just pulling it out. Trying to draw and open a folder while being subjected to a "ground 'n' pound" is not fun and if you don't do something to reverse the situation, you may not last long enough to get your weapon into play.
Agreed, I've got Vol. 1 and have found it to be excellent (slight clarification: DLO is a collaboration between Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny of the Dog Brothers, and Gabe Suarez of Suarez International). I really like the fact that they discuss the entire coninuum from weapons defense, to weapon deployment.
The video is worth the price just to see the portions where people tried to draw a weapon before they had established control or had neutralized the threat and got shanked multiple times as a result.
Link to DLO Vol. 1 http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=509
Link to DLO Vol. 2 http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=930
Nothing is a sure shot defense. That goes for empty hand defense and weapon defense. Of course, there are always some that seem to think that there is no hope at all when faced with a weapon. Of course, IMO, that usually means that the person in question hasn't found the best way for them, yet they assume that everyone falls into that category.
As some have already said, it comes down to mindset and how you train. There are some people out there teaching some very solid techniques or principles and some teaching things that will probably end up getting you killed.
As some have already said, it comes down to mindset and how you train. There are some people out there teaching some very solid techniques or principles and some teaching things that will probably end up getting you killed.
OP
OP
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Andrew; no disagreements from me. Love that skit btw too! 
Kenpotex; those vids look interesting. I have been saying for years that if your weapon isn't out when the event occurs, you have to establish control and buy time to access your weapon. We found this out through scenario training of our own. It really makes the case for training unarmed combat, and it also flies in the face of the conventional wisdom from weapon focused people ("I'll just pull my gun or knife"). I've been saying this for years, but what the hell do I know... lol
Kenpotex; those vids look interesting. I have been saying for years that if your weapon isn't out when the event occurs, you have to establish control and buy time to access your weapon. We found this out through scenario training of our own. It really makes the case for training unarmed combat, and it also flies in the face of the conventional wisdom from weapon focused people ("I'll just pull my gun or knife"). I've been saying this for years, but what the hell do I know... lol
KenpoTex
Senior Master
Exactly!I have been saying for years that if your weapon isn't out when the event occurs, you have to establish control and buy time to access your weapon. We found this out through scenario training of our own. It really makes the case for training unarmed combat, and it also flies in the face of the conventional wisdom from weapon focused people ("I'll just pull my gun or knife"). I've been saying this for years, but what the hell do I know... lol
Andrew; no disagreements from me. Love that skit btw too!
Kenpotex; those vids look interesting. I have been saying for years that if your weapon isn't out when the event occurs, you have to establish control and buy time to access your weapon. We found this out through scenario training of our own. It really makes the case for training unarmed combat, and it also flies in the face of the conventional wisdom from weapon focused people ("I'll just pull my gun or knife"). I've been saying this for years, but what the hell do I know... lol
As little as me?
That is what you know. 
Now back to the cave with you, as we need to get more scenario training in.
OP
OP
Cruentus
Grandmaster
As little as me?
Cave? I'll be hiding in the mountains, waiting to get my shot off...
Bodhisattva
Blue Belt
Grappling vs. knife:
step 1: Run
Step 2: If can't run, get BOTH HANDS on the knife hand
Step 3: Head butt, knee and throw your opponent until he stops moving.
Step 4: Leave. Why wait for the police?..in fact, maybe check Mr. Knife Guy's pockets for his wallet. Why not? He was going to stab you.
step 1: Run
Step 2: If can't run, get BOTH HANDS on the knife hand
Step 3: Head butt, knee and throw your opponent until he stops moving.
Step 4: Leave. Why wait for the police?..in fact, maybe check Mr. Knife Guy's pockets for his wallet. Why not? He was going to stab you.
Bodhisattva
Blue Belt
I think it's a pretty simple explanation, there is no reliable way to get a knife away from a person that wants to use it without a weapon.
Since a lot of people would rather believe that there is, and some instructors don't like to admit there isn't, "little things" like that get overlooked so that the fantasy can be made real in the dojo
Check out Straight Blast Gym's Karl Tanswell's Two-On-One defense against a knife attack. It is the only realistic knife defense I've seen in 20 years of looking at "knife defense nonsense."
Tanswell is a bodyguard, has been for years, and actually uses what he teaches. You'll find it all refreshing.
KenpoTex
Senior Master
Is Karl affiliated with SBG? Sounds like you may be talking about Jerry Wetzel's "Red Zone" system (which, as I've said in the past, I really like).
just trying to clarify...
Why wait for the police? Because the guy may come to, and decide that YOU attacked him. Or someone nearby saw it or it got caught on a security camera... Running away turns justifiable self defense into questionable behavior. Especially if there's any argument to be made about the reasonableness of the force you used.
Why not check his pockets for a wallet? Even simpler. YOU ARE NOT A CROOK. Or maybe YOU are; I'm not. And I won't train people I know or suspect to be crooks.
Bodhisattva
Blue Belt
Hey, Captain SensofHumor! Maybe you could recognize when people are joking? It makes the jokes funnier!
--
And, yes, I *AM* a crook. I went to "crook" college, and got my degree in "crookin'". I can crook it up, baby!
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
That's weird. All the cops that I know on a personal basis tell me that in a situation like this,"GO THE #%&! HOME!" According to them, 10 felons could beat you to hell and run a train on you and it's still gonna cost you an arm and a leg to prove that you were "innocent". "Oh, that guy over there was oppressing us with his just being there, & then he insulted our mothers, yeah. So we had to jump him and rape him. Not that we could help it, we're not responsible for our actions, we're so oppressed blahblahblahblah..." Yeah, I don't want any of that trouble. In a situation like that, you may win the battle but lose the war. Damn catch-22's...
OP
OP
Cruentus
Grandmaster
You want to always get yourself to safety. But that is different from "fleeing the scene" where you go away with no intention of notifying the police. Getting to safety and notifying the police as soon as possible (preferably by cell phone immediately when it is safe to make the call) is the most reasonable thing to do.
Listen to Cruentus and Jks9199 as they are both spot on. You need to notify the police and let them know what happend once you are safe. Also you need to explain what actions you took and why. Fleeing the scene and not notifying the police is definately not a good idea.
(it will probably come back to haunt you big time)
My friend just wrapped up a case where some punks were making this guy and his 4 year old daughter feel threatened, so he threatened them back (with his gun, he only showed it, BTW,which is legal here, he didn't point it.) It happened out of cell-phone range, but the punks made it back to town first, and called the cops on the guy. Guess who had to hire a lawyer?
Get to safety, and call it in ASAP. Don't let them beat you to it.
Get to safety, and call it in ASAP. Don't let them beat you to it.
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
Oh. Well, I might do that. Go home and then call, from behind a locked door, just me and my boom stick.
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
Another argument for open-hand strikes. Palm heel, chop, and slap the piss out of 'em while screaming,"I DON'T WANT TO FIGHT! STAY AWAY FROM ME! HELP!!! FIRE!!!"
