Grappling and Wing Tsun.

[jeff_hasbrouck]

The way Wing Chun works is that it tends to nip things in the bud so to speak , when the attack is still in it's infancy.
The arm drag is a great technique and I use variations of it in some of my knife defence stuff.

But the way he initiates it means that he will immediately be hit , because he is trying to clear the arm away from the centerline.

Wing Chun guys are like a baby with a toy , it's my centerline mine mine mine and your not having it.
So with a simple flip of the wrist he will go around that arm that's trying to clear and hit the guy , it is a technique called running palms.

On very skilled practitioners you maybe not able to move there arm at all off the center line , their force and focus can be that great.
Because to us if we allow our arms to deviate off the centerline it can be more costly than just having your arm captured , it can mean having various parts of your neck attacked which is not very pleasant.

Mook, I believe this is the only time I disagree with you. Let me just clue you into the grappling world real quick:

GRAPPLER-I don't care what obstruction is in my way, I will clear it or move on to the next opprotunity; And there is ALWAYS a next opprotunity.

You seem to have this fantastic idea in your head that WT can overcome all, it can't. Wrestlers are just the same as WT guys as they don't ever try to "force" an entry, they "creat an angle" of attack. And yes I know that in WT we follow our opponent like a turret with our stance, but this doesn't change the fact that I have successfully taken down many many WT/WC guys with a arm-drag to a singel/double leg. Don't get me wrong, I am a full believer in WT chi-sau. After I learned the dummy chi-sau, my eyes were opened to new realms of possiblity. But that doesn't change the fact that a wrestler can slip our guard just as easily as we can punch them.

I'm speaking from practical experience. Now I'm not saying Leung Ting WT is the best out there, but I trained it for a number of years and it is definately a legitimate branch of WT. I still have never had a single problem taking a LTWT guy down ever. Chi-sau is not going to save you from a take-down. Ya, sure you will know whats happening and you will formulate a quick and decisive response and it might even work out for you, once or twice.

The crux of the matter is, wrestlers (and some grapplers) are just as good (or better in some cases) as adapting to new variables just as quick as a WT man is. This effectually negates your entire comment about chain-punching saving your *** from an arm-drag. I've had it happen to me on multiple occasions. All I did was level change, and utilize a snatch single. Then I used a lift and sweep (like a Lau-sau/huen-bo for us WT guys). And then Sifu Bad-*** hits the ground.

I'm not trying to be abrasive, or mean. I'm just letting you know that you have no clue what you are talking about. And honestly, I don't have sugar coat it for you. You need to realize that grappling is so fast, and deceptive. Yes grapplers move the arm out of their way, but that is the most basic of ways to take someone down. Grapplers utilize the centerline all the time, and are just as good as controlling it as we are.

And im assuming that "So with a simple flip of the wrist he will go around that arm that's trying to clear and hit the guy , it is a technique called running palms." you mean huen-sau or Kau-sau (Circling hand, and plucking hand for the non-wt people viewing this).

Well again, all a wrestler has to do is a level change and since you were so nice as to move your arms out of the equation for him, he/she switches to a take-down.

I swear I need to start posting vids about just how flipin easy it is for a grappler to slip past our guard, because too many of us WT folks are so woefully ignorant of grappling it is embaressing. The guys I trained with for years hadn't the faintest idea of how to deal with a simple take-down; and had I known I would have showed them every solution there is. It opened my eyes to how many holes we have in our "perfect little system"... Anyways, eat it up grapplers, thats the only time im going to defend your asses in an arguement against WT.

So the thick and the vieny of this little dietraub is that, actually go grapple people before opening your mouth. Because honestly WT/WC people, your ignorance is starting to offend me.

Respectfully yours,

Jeff (Das Panda).

 

[Steve]

When you said "No such thing as anti-grappling", I honestly think that statement is a little more than silly. Anti-(anything) is the counter action of the "thing". Anti-grappling would be considered striking. And basically by ignoring this information and valuable way of looking at things, your curbing your own process and ability to learn in my opinion. But hey, ya'll do as you please, I am by no means a master, but from a personal point of view I try not to discount anything, no matter how rediculous it seems.

I think the idea is that "anti-grappling" is actually just grappling. If you are being grappled, to escape or counter, you are also grappling (by definition.) So, the term "anti-grappling" has taken on some baggage. There are different approaches to grappling. I think that the label causes problems, though. It implies things that people disagree with.

And if you wouldn't mind explaining "IMO", as I have no clue to what you are referring.

IMO = In My Opinion. Typically makes it clear that someone is knowingly posting an opinion as opposed to stating a fact.

 

[mook jong man]

I know I'm late to the discussion here, and not a wing chun guy. I trained for a few brief years, several years ago, but no longer.

Anyway, the comment you make above, here's something to think about: if you can control the head by placing downward pressure on it, then the head is an available target for a strike. Drive an elbow straight down into the back of the head or back of the neck. or punch down to the back of the head. Or strike the side of the head with a hooking punch or horizontal elbow. Or...

make sense?

That's exactly what you would do , after you have stopped their forward momentum.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's exactly what you would do , after you have stopped their forward momentum.

I think yes and no. It depends on how fast and well the guy comes in, how much you are surprised by it, etc. But if you can control the head, I'd say you could just go ahead and hit it. Why take an intermediate step? Again, it depends.

 

[mook jong man]

Mook, I believe this is the only time I disagree with you. Let me just clue you into the grappling world real quick:

GRAPPLER-I don't care what obstruction is in my way, I will clear it or move on to the next opprotunity; And there is ALWAYS a next opprotunity.

You seem to have this fantastic idea in your head that WT can overcome all, it can't. Wrestlers are just the same as WT guys as they don't ever try to "force" an entry, they "creat an angle" of attack. And yes I know that in WT we follow our opponent like a turret with our stance, but this doesn't change the fact that I have successfully taken down many many WT/WC guys with a arm-drag to a singel/double leg. Don't get me wrong, I am a full believer in WT chi-sau. After I learned the dummy chi-sau, my eyes were opened to new realms of possiblity. But that doesn't change the fact that a wrestler can slip our guard just as easily as we can punch them.

I'm speaking from practical experience. Now I'm not saying Leung Ting WT is the best out there, but I trained it for a number of years and it is definately a legitimate branch of WT. I still have never had a single problem taking a LTWT guy down ever. Chi-sau is not going to save you from a take-down. Ya, sure you will know whats happening and you will formulate a quick and decisive response and it might even work out for you, once or twice.

The crux of the matter is, wrestlers (and some grapplers) are just as good (or better in some cases) as adapting to new variables just as quick as a WT man is. This effectually negates your entire comment about chain-punching saving your *** from an arm-drag. I've had it happen to me on multiple occasions. All I did was level change, and utilize a snatch single. Then I used a lift and sweep (like a Lau-sau/huen-bo for us WT guys). And then Sifu Bad-*** hits the ground.

I'm not trying to be abrasive, or mean. I'm just letting you know that you have no clue what you are talking about. And honestly, I don't have sugar coat it for you. You need to realize that grappling is so fast, and deceptive. Yes grapplers move the arm out of their way, but that is the most basic of ways to take someone down. Grapplers utilize the centerline all the time, and are just as good as controlling it as we are.

And im assuming that "So with a simple flip of the wrist he will go around that arm that's trying to clear and hit the guy , it is a technique called running palms." you mean huen-sau or Kau-sau (Circling hand, and plucking hand for the non-wt people viewing this).

Well again, all a wrestler has to do is a level change and since you were so nice as to move your arms out of the equation for him, he/she switches to a take-down.

I swear I need to start posting vids about just how flipin easy it is for a grappler to slip past our guard, because too many of us WT folks are so woefully ignorant of grappling it is embaressing. The guys I trained with for years hadn't the faintest idea of how to deal with a simple take-down; and had I known I would have showed them every solution there is. It opened my eyes to how many holes we have in our "perfect little system"... Anyways, eat it up grapplers, thats the only time im going to defend your asses in an arguement against WT.

So the thick and the vieny of this little dietraub is that, actually go grapple people before opening your mouth. Because honestly WT/WC people, your ignorance is starting to offend me.

Respectfully yours,

Jeff (Das Panda).

First off , I am not W.T.
My Wing Chun is from Tsui Seung Tin lineage.

I didn't say you would use chain punching against an arm drag , for a start he has hold of one of your arms , how are you going to chain punch ?
What I would have said is that you may pivot 45 degrees as he tries to get to the side and use a barring arm to keep him off of you as you hit him with your other hand , but there are many variables with this , you may have to go into a semi sprawl position if he is going pretty low.

I am not ignorant to the ways of grappling either , I was primarily trained in grappling by two guys who used to fight in shootfighting competitions in Japan.
We don't live in a bubble over here in Australia you know , we actually have big tough Rugby League players who will try and tackle you to the ground and dump you on your **** as well as quite a few grapplers getting around the joint.

Along with chi sau I use quite a few grappling concepts to defend against take downs , If they change levels then we will partially change levels too and get the legs and hips back into a semi sprawl , we don't stand there completely upright as a guy is trying to wrap his arms around our legs or waist.
We actually train a lot of our take down defenses from within chi sau itself as well as from further out.

Of course a grappler can take a Wing Chun guy down if the Wing Chun person is not familiar with that type of attack.
But doesn't that hold true for everything , it's like if you don't know how to defend against chain punching with Tan/ Bong you are going to get your face smashed in.
It's self evident , it's not rocket science.

 

[mook jong man]

I think yes and no. It depends on how fast and well the guy comes in, how much you are surprised by it, etc. But if you can control the head, I'd say you could just go ahead and hit it. Why take an intermediate step? Again, it depends.

Your going to be trying to hit something as you are being picked up and driven backwards at a vast rate of knots , not an easy proposition.
Any strikes you do are likely to glance off the side of his skull , as well as that he might be shielding his head as he comes in.
Another possibility is that both your arms might be out of position due to him smacking them upwards or to the side as he comes in.

Ideally we try to step off the line of attack if we have time and control his nearside arm and strike down on the back of the occipital lobe with a Fook Sau in one movement , but usually this is only possible from long range and when its telegraphed.
But again there are a lot of variables with this , in a Rugby tackle the head will be down because they don't have to worry about guillotine chokes , but a skilled grapplers head will be up.

 

[geezer]

So the thick and the vieny of this little dietraub is that, actually go grapple people before opening your mouth. Because honestly WT/WC people, your ignorance is starting to offend me.

Respectfully yours,

Jeff (Das Panda).

Relax Jeff. You aren't the only WT/WC guy on here that was raised wrestling before you even heard of Wing Chun. And yes it's true that a lot of traditionally trained WC guys don't have realistic experience dealing with good grapplers. But that is changing. All the work different groups are doing with "anti-grappling" programs is, at least recognizing that there's a problem. And the one thing about grappling, is it can be safely tested. WC techniques that fail the test will change. The system will grow and evolve. It already is.

 

[Flying Crane]

Your going to be trying to hit something as you are being picked up and driven backwards at a vast rate of knots , not an easy proposition.
Any strikes you do are likely to glance off the side of his skull , as well as that he might be shielding his head as he comes in.
Another possibility is that both your arms might be out of position due to him smacking them upwards or to the side as he comes in.

Ideally we try to step off the line of attack if we have time and control his nearside arm and strike down on the back of the occipital lobe with a Fook Sau in one movement , but usually this is only possible from long range and when its telegraphed.
But again there are a lot of variables with this , in a Rugby tackle the head will be down because they don't have to worry about guillotine chokes , but a skilled grapplers head will be up.

sure, valid issues. As I say, it depends. But I wouldn't assume it's out of the question. Seems to me that people assume it's gonna be impossible. I just don't think so.

 

[Flying Crane]

Relax Jeff. You aren't the only WT/WC guy on here that was raised wrestling before you even heard of Wing Chun. And yes it's true that a lot of traditionally trained WC guys don't have realistic experience dealing with good grapplers. But that is changing. All the work different groups are doing with "anti-grappling" programs is, at least recognizing that there's a problem. And the one thing about grappling, is it can be safely tested. WC techniques that fail the test will change. The system will grow and evolve. It already is.

personally, I think that if he believes wrestling/grappling has such a clear advantage over wing chun, then he should stop wasting his time with wing chun and just train wrestling/grappling. If he believes that works best, then that's what he should do and not worry about what others are doing.

 

[Vajramusti]

Much depends on the school and the instructor. If you do enough good wing chun- you learn how to control a grappler for your purposes- not the grappler's.

An individual's learning and skill are the keys imo.

 

[Argus]

sure, valid issues. As I say, it depends. But I wouldn't assume it's out of the question. Seems to me that people assume it's gonna be impossible. I just don't think so.

I can't help but agree with mook here. It's neigh impossible. Consider this; when someone gets up underneath you like that, you have lost your connection to the ground. You cannot generate any real power this way, and the skull, and even the back of the head, neck, and body are quite tough. You're not likely to do any real damage in that circumstance.

I train occasionally with a guy who does Judo. One thing that I found to work against a tackle - at least the one time that we tried it, is to use your tuima to get off the line of attack, covering the closest arm with gan-sau, and coming to the side of the neck with gum-sau (pressing it sideways, off of the line, and not down, so you still have power from the ground. Also, in general, keep the hands lower than you normally would, and sink into your stance.) The important thing is not to let him get underneath you, and to keep the ground underneath any method of striking or controlling that you use.

That's all just in my very limited experience, though. I'd like to do some more grappling and really get a feel for it.

 

[Flying Crane]

I can't help but agree with mook here. It's neigh impossible. Consider this; when someone gets up underneath you like that, you have lost your connection to the ground. You cannot generate any real power this way, and the skull, and even the back of the head, neck, and body are quite tough. You're not likely to do any real damage in that circumstance.

I train occasionally with a guy who does Judo. One thing that I found to work against a tackle - at least the one time that we tried it, is to use your tuima to get off the line of attack, covering the closest arm with gan-sau, and coming to the side of the neck with gum-sau (pressing it sideways, off of the line, and not down, so you still have power from the ground. Also, in general, keep the hands lower than you normally would, and sink into your stance.) The important thing is not to let him get underneath you, and to keep the ground underneath any method of striking or controlling that you use.

That's all just in my very limited experience, though. I'd like to do some more grappling and really get a feel for it.

again, valid points. But, why not hit him before he can settle in and grasp you and uproot you? Hit him while he's coming in.

If you "receive" him as a grappler, then you are playing his game even if just for a few moments. You've handed him the advantage. Hit him before that happens.

wanted to edit to add: the back of the head and neck are actually quite vulnerable. Especially the back of the neck, following the spine from the base of the skull downward. If you drive an elbow down into the spine/vertebra, you can do some serious damage, instantly.

 

[mook jong man]

again, valid points. But, why not hit him before he can settle in and grasp you and uproot you? Hit him while he's coming in.

If you "receive" him as a grappler, then you are playing his game even if just for a few moments. You've handed him the advantage. Hit him before that happens.

wanted to edit to add: the back of the head and neck are actually quite vulnerable. Especially the back of the neck, following the spine from the base of the skull downward. If you drive an elbow down into the spine/vertebra, you can do some serious damage, instantly.

It depends on at what phase you detect the attack , if he is coming in from quite a distance as someone that is unskilled might do then by all means step off at an angle and give him a wack on the back of the neck or if his head is up then elbow strike him in the face.

But skilled people start in from much closer and before you know it the grab is already on , we like to prepare for that by training to counter the take downs from within chi sau range where you have minimal time to counter.

As far as receiving him as a grappler is concerned , you could argue that Wing Chun already contains elements of grappling , we grapple with peoples arms every time we are doing chi sau.

 

[Argus]

again, valid points. But, why not hit him before he can settle in and grasp you and uproot you? Hit him while he's coming in.

If you "receive" him as a grappler, then you are playing his game even if just for a few moments. You've handed him the advantage. Hit him before that happens.

wanted to edit to add: the back of the head and neck are actually quite vulnerable. Especially the back of the neck, following the spine from the base of the skull downward. If you drive an elbow down into the spine/vertebra, you can do some serious damage, instantly.

Well, that is a good point. It is always preferable to hit; turn that gum-sau that I described into a palm or fist. But I think you had still better move off of the line and cover with one arm.

One point, though. The spine is actually pretty tough. No doubt that you can cause some serious damage there with a good strike, but if the back of the neck is already in proximity to your elbow, I don't know how you are going to deliver one; isn't he already underneath you at that point? Moreover, even if you can deliver an effective strike, that's using lethal force. I'd prefer not to rely on that answer.

 

[Flying Crane]

It depends on at what phase you detect the attack , if he is coming in from quite a distance as someone that is unskilled might do then by all means step off at an angle and give him a wack on the back of the neck or if his head is up then elbow strike him in the face.

But skilled people start in from much closer and before you know it the grab is already on , we like to prepare for that by training to counter the take downs from within chi sau range where you have minimal time to counter.

As far as receiving him as a grappler is concerned , you could argue that Wing Chun already contains elements of grappling , we grapple with peoples arms every time we are doing chi sau.

yup, and again, this is why I keep saying, "it depends". I think people are quick to concede the advantage to the grappler, and in doing so they end up playing the grappler's game. If you yourself are not a grappling specialist, you will never beat him at his own game. Make him play your game, or at least make him play his game against your game. But don't play his game too. I am familiar enough with WC to recognize that it does contain elements of grappling so yeah, I'm with you there. In that context, using WC's methodology, including it's variant of grappling, would be consistent. But don't let it turn into a game of trying to out-perform a specialist in his own game. Look for ways to use your method against him, no matter what he is trying to do to you.

Here's where I think a lot of the problem resides. Grappling got a lot of attention in the UFC and other mixed martial arts venues. At least within the context of those venues, everyone perceived it as something that strikers were not prepared or capable of dealing with. That sort of became the conventional wisdom and I think now people don't question that wisdom, it's been accepted as gospel. I think it's not true, tho, and I openly question that wisdom. I don't accept it. I think the problem is really with the training methodology of grappling vs. striking, and admittedly there are some training advantages that grappling has.

The nature of grappling techniques is such that it is easy to really develop those skills because they are easier to use in the training hall. In the training, you get to really use those grappling techniques, and you can pull back the intensity so that nobody gets injured in the process, while still using the techniques with a lot of realism. That is a definite advantage when it comes to training. So a grappler has a better chance at developing a real comfort level and subsequently a real confidence in his techniques.

In a striking method, you cannot do that. You cannot dial back the intensity and still make the techniques work. If you hit someone for real, you injure him and maybe he even goes to the hospital. You run out of training partners very quickly if that's how you go about training. So if you dial it back, then the strikes are not effective and your partners needs to "acknowledge" them and pretend like they were effective, whether or not they would have been had they been real. This is a real disadvantage in training. You never get to really try it out on a live person and it can lead to questions or doubts about the ability to use them effectively. It resides to some degree in the realm of theory, and you need to be able to bridge that gap into reality when the fit hits the shan. That is a disadvantage in training, because you cannot practice doing it with absolute realism. But nevertheless, the potential is there and obviously there are ways to help bridge that gap, like hitting heavy bags, working on the dummy, etc., but it's still an approximation.

So when we see a matchup between a "grappler" and a "striker", when it's a competition type match the grappler has an automatic advantage: he can use his techniques for real, while a striker, in that context of a match cannot, and has some reluctance to even try. He ends up using less decisive strikes, because the goal of the match is not life-or-death. In the end, everyone wants to go home in more or less one piece. But given the nature of grappling techniques, the grappler doesn't have that same limitation. As I said earlier, the grappler can actually use his techniques, they are still effective, even if he dials it back so that there is no true injury, just push to the point of submission. It's much more difficult to dial back a strike "to the point of submission". So when the grappler drives in for the engagement, the striker sort of freezes up, doesn't use his strikes the way they were meant to be used, and ends up trying to grapple with the grappler. He gets taken down and tied up in a way that it becomes impossible to use his techniques effectively, and it's too late.

I say, you gotta use your strikes how they were meant to be used, and that means brutally and immediately. But that doesn't work for a competition type engagement.

This is why I say, use the strikes to their full potential, and don't, even for a moment, play the other guy's game. If he is shooting in to grapple and take you down, he should be receiving about three solid blows in the face while attempting to do that. If he grabs you, don't try to grapple him off, because you are playing his game. Hit the hell out of him instead and get him to let go that way.

If a grappler doesn't also have striking skills, he's not going to try to box against a boxer, or kick against a TKD guy. He's gonna try to engage and grapple against them. A striker should approach the encounter with the same mindset: no matter what the enemy does, you strike him.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, that is a good point. It is always preferable to hit; turn that gum-sau that I described into a palm or fist. But I think you had still better move off of the line and cover with one arm.

sure! set yourself up so you can hit him and don't end up grappling with him.

One point, though. The spine is actually pretty tough. No doubt that you can cause some serious damage there with a good strike, but if the back of the neck is already in proximity to your elbow, I don't know how you are going to deliver one; isn't he already underneath you at that point? Moreover, even if you can deliver an effective strike, that's using lethal force. I'd prefer not to rely on that answer.

you drive the point of the elbow straight down, into the spine. It could be the back of the head, the back of the neck, between the shoulder blades, or wherever you can strike it. Sink your body as you do it to get maximum effect. And yes, this could very well be lethal, so context matters a lot. I don't have much of any interest in competition of any kind, so this is the kind of thing to use when the threat to yourself or your loved ones is high enough to justify it.

But that's what a striking art is, or should be: immediately decisive. End the damn situation RIGHT NOW. This isn't a game. Don't go for complex strategies that might be useful in an agreed-upon competition that could last for several minutes. In a real fight you don't have time for that, you need to just END IT.

You should also be able to use a less lethal variant. You don't need to drive the point of the elbow into the spine. You could use the blade of the elbow, the bone on the forearm right below the actual elbow joint, and drop it into the spine. That will have less chance of actually breaking the vertebra or rupturing the spinal cord, while still getting a serious effect on the bad guy. But my point is, if you are a striking specialist, look for opportunities to strike. Don't grapple against the grappler.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

I think the idea is that "anti-grappling" is actually just grappling. If you are being grappled, to escape or counter, you are also grappling (by definition.) So, the term "anti-grappling" has taken on some baggage. There are different approaches to grappling. I think that the label causes problems, though. It implies things that people disagree with.
IMO = In My Opinion. Typically makes it clear that someone is knowingly posting an opinion as opposed to stating a fact.

Thank you for the clarification! I just didn't understand where you were coming from on that point.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

First off , I am not W.T.
My Wing Chun is from Tsui Seung Tin lineage.

I didn't say you would use chain punching against an arm drag , for a start he has hold of one of your arms , how are you going to chain punch ?
What I would have said is that you may pivot 45 degrees as he tries to get to the side and use a barring arm to keep him off of you as you hit him with your other hand , but there are many variables with this , you may have to go into a semi sprawl position if he is going pretty low.

I am not ignorant to the ways of grappling either , I was primarily trained in grappling by two guys who used to fight in shootfighting competitions in Japan.
We don't live in a bubble over here in Australia you know , we actually have big tough Rugby League players who will try and tackle you to the ground and dump you on your **** as well as quite a few grapplers getting around the joint.

Along with chi sau I use quite a few grappling concepts to defend against take downs , If they change levels then we will partially change levels too and get the legs and hips back into a semi sprawl , we don't stand there completely upright as a guy is trying to wrap his arms around our legs or waist.
We actually train a lot of our take down defenses from within chi sau itself as well as from further out.

Of course a grappler can take a Wing Chun guy down if the Wing Chun person is not familiar with that type of attack.
But doesn't that hold true for everything , it's like if you don't know how to defend against chain punching with Tan/ Bong you are going to get your face smashed in.
It's self evident , it's not rocket science.

Mook, I believe your tone is getting a little hostile lol. If you mean something, then explain it. Don't leave it to the imagination. I've been working on some anti-grappling/remedial techniques for armbars after the recent discussion. I've found that a gaun-dar (splitting arm/punch for those who don't know) with a juen-ma (turned stance for those who don't know) is a good way if you catch it soon enough. But you can utilize a fook-sau with an arm bar, or just use some wrestling anti-takedown manuevers. I'm gonna make some short video's one of these days, and I think if we all made some shorts of how we personally like to deal with a certain situation so everyone can see, we could really give each other some great ideas.... Maybe name it "Defense of the Week"/"Anti-grap technique of the week" or something like that where we all post our replies.

Anyways, best of luck!

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

Relax Jeff. You aren't the only WT/WC guy on here that was raised wrestling before you even heard of Wing Chun. And yes it's true that a lot of traditionally trained WC guys don't have realistic experience dealing with good grapplers. But that is changing. All the work different groups are doing with "anti-grappling" programs is, at least recognizing that there's a problem. And the one thing about grappling, is it can be safely tested. WC techniques that fail the test will change. The system will grow and evolve. It already is.

Thanks Geezer!

I suppose I just get a little "over" worked up over stupid stuff. I'm still young and full of piss and vinegar. I just hear and see so much negativity towards the grappling aspect of WT/WC/VT that it's literally making me sick to my stomach. The Leung Ting ***. in the USA or "NAS" section is notorious for this. I trained with them for about 7 years and all I kept hearing from my "seniors" is how awesome WT was and they couldn't back any of it up. As soon as I would start my takedowns their "precious" techniques would dissapate into a huge ***-whoppin lol.

I just see so much potential and hate when people under-utilize it.

Thanks for the calming words sir; again I always apperciate your contributions to my (and anyone else's that I read) threads!

All the best!

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

personally, I think that if he believes wrestling/grappling has such a clear advantage over wing chun, then he should stop wasting his time with wing chun and just train wrestling/grappling. If he believes that works best, then that's what he should do and not worry about what others are doing.

The "clear advantage" is that wrestlers/grapplers don't delude themselves into thinking they are invincible. I worry about what ya'll *******s do because you can talk as much **** as you want about grappling, yet you DON'T EVEN TRY to find out why they can beat you within 30 seconds. It's pathetic. I AM a wing tsun man, and a good one. You say "waste my time worrying about WT and what others do?" I don't consider it a waste of time to study my enemy. Or other disciplines of martial arts. I consider all that don't woefully ignorant. And please correct me if i've mistaken what you were trying to say; But from what I understand, you think that I am bashing WT? Not in the slightest. But i'll gladly call you an idiot for saying it isn't an intelligent thing to train against the opponents that are most dangerous. Yes I take the wrestlers sides when they are right. Right about WT not having any ground game, because honestly, you DON'T see it in MMA. Whether or not we actually have it, there is no exposure except for what people see in the ring. So before you go toting that "He's not good enough to be in our system" ****, why don't you check yourself before you wreck yourself. Stop assuming that you have all the answers and that me, by validating some grapplers point of view (which is by my reckoning spot on) should be condenmed on the spot. Again with the WT/WC/VT ignorance.

Geezer I'm sorry, but this is the kinda funky-chicken stuff i'm talking about.