Steve
Mostly Harmless
Okay. You're right and I'm wrong. Don't know what I was thinking.
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Grappling and Wing Tsun.
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Okay. You're right and I'm wrong. Don't know what I was thinking.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
If you come from a striking art and if you want to have a taste of the grappling art, you should try the following game.
- Both kicking and punching are allowed.
- Whoever can get a "環(Huan) –head lock", "圈(Quan)– under hook", "抄(Chao)- over hook", he wins that round.
Try this for 15 round daily, in 6 months, you will have a good understanding of grappling. It's fun and safe game which can add something new into your training.
- Both kicking and punching are allowed.
- Whoever can get a "環(Huan) –head lock", "圈(Quan)– under hook", "抄(Chao)- over hook", he wins that round.
Try this for 15 round daily, in 6 months, you will have a good understanding of grappling. It's fun and safe game which can add something new into your training.
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mook jong man
Senior Master
That is the thing , you are not wrong.
It depends on the skill level in chi sau that the practitioner has attained.
You can make almost anything work on the inexperienced , I regularly put them in arm bars , standing head and arm chokes , guillotines etc.
These things can and do work , but if I try them against someone who is quite savvy , I will get several rapid whacks in the head for my trouble.
So I am not right and you are not wrong , as with most things the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
mook jong man
Senior Master
We already have elements of this in chi sau, with the neck grabbing hand etc.
If I want to practice body to body grappling I will mostly just practice the basic pummeling exercise or work on striking from the various clinch positions.
chinaboxer
Green Belt
i really like this thread, because i have spent many many years, 26 to be exact, doing both wing chun and grappling, so i see both sides of this. and here's my opinion on the subject...
BJJ Steve and Mook are both right. but if you haven't spent many many years doing both, it's hard to understand the other person's perspective. the difference in opinion comes from not understanding the other side of the "coin".
Wing Chun is about developing a "body structure", connecting it to your elbows, and using your forearms to constantly uproot and hit your opponent while your mind chases their center. Mook is right when he says, that if someone trys to armdrag you out of position, you are in actuality trying to drag a chunners entire "body structure" out of position. and if the body, mind, spirit are focused together, the armdrag actually pulls the chunner not sideways but right into your center. but as Mook knows, if the opponents "body structure" is better than yours, it is the chunner that will get pulled out of position. you also have to realize that in order to get this type of "effect" (being pulled into someones center), you must have someone use FORCE.
What chunners have to realize is that BJJ Steve is ALSO correct, because a grappler doesn't PULL your arm, in other words, he doesn't FORCE your arm out, he controls your elbow at the center with grips (think of it as a pak sau) and then PUNCHES you with his "body structure" (which is also straight spine). in other words, a grappler PUNCHES with their "body structures" exactly like a chunner connects their "body structure" to their elbows and release that energy out the hand.
in wing chun, we do chi sau which is wrist to wrist, forearm to forearm. in grappling, they do chi sau which is "body structure" to "body structure". but in essence it is exactly the same. it's just that chunners extend their structure into their elbows.
so a proper armdrag is EXACTLY like a pak sau and punch. except a grappler replaces the punch with their "body structure". this is why i always say that wing chunners are actually grapplers in disguise, but the goal of the chunner is to use the "body structure" into the elbows and shoot that energy out the forearm and out the fist to knock out their opponent, while a grappler uses their "body structure" to get into an opponent's body structure and take them down to submit them.
the goal is the same for both, which is to get the power generated from the "body structure", and without using "physical" force, get it to your opponent's centerline and/or center of balance and release it.
Jin
BJJ Steve and Mook are both right. but if you haven't spent many many years doing both, it's hard to understand the other person's perspective. the difference in opinion comes from not understanding the other side of the "coin".
Wing Chun is about developing a "body structure", connecting it to your elbows, and using your forearms to constantly uproot and hit your opponent while your mind chases their center. Mook is right when he says, that if someone trys to armdrag you out of position, you are in actuality trying to drag a chunners entire "body structure" out of position. and if the body, mind, spirit are focused together, the armdrag actually pulls the chunner not sideways but right into your center. but as Mook knows, if the opponents "body structure" is better than yours, it is the chunner that will get pulled out of position. you also have to realize that in order to get this type of "effect" (being pulled into someones center), you must have someone use FORCE.
What chunners have to realize is that BJJ Steve is ALSO correct, because a grappler doesn't PULL your arm, in other words, he doesn't FORCE your arm out, he controls your elbow at the center with grips (think of it as a pak sau) and then PUNCHES you with his "body structure" (which is also straight spine). in other words, a grappler PUNCHES with their "body structures" exactly like a chunner connects their "body structure" to their elbows and release that energy out the hand.
in wing chun, we do chi sau which is wrist to wrist, forearm to forearm. in grappling, they do chi sau which is "body structure" to "body structure". but in essence it is exactly the same. it's just that chunners extend their structure into their elbows.
so a proper armdrag is EXACTLY like a pak sau and punch. except a grappler replaces the punch with their "body structure". this is why i always say that wing chunners are actually grapplers in disguise, but the goal of the chunner is to use the "body structure" into the elbows and shoot that energy out the forearm and out the fist to knock out their opponent, while a grappler uses their "body structure" to get into an opponent's body structure and take them down to submit them.
the goal is the same for both, which is to get the power generated from the "body structure", and without using "physical" force, get it to your opponent's centerline and/or center of balance and release it.
Jin
WC_lun
Senior Master
Very nice post. The only thing I would add is that a Wing Chun player must keep the structure strong so that the power is delivered effeciently and the opponent's structure is not stronger or inside of your own. This means the elbows connected to the hips connected to the feet. If the opponent's structure is stronger or they get on the inside of your structure, that puts the Wing Chun person in recovery mode and if not familiar with the processes of grappling can do exactly the wrong thing and the right time. Wing Chun does have the tools to successfully take on any kind of fighter. However, if you don't have much experience against a certain type of fighter, it can put a hitch into your repsonses...especially if put in unfamiliar territory. Wing Chun principles are equally valid in any setting, grappling or striking, or something in between. But just like you must work on your stand up to understand that and be sensitive to what an opponent would be doing, you must put some time in to those other areas.
chinaboxer
Green Belt
if you replace the word "wing chun" with "grappler" in the post, everything in it would still be 100% true.
This is why you need to think as a grappler does. When your opponent applies "arm dragging" like the following clip, he may lead you into a territory that you are not familiar with.
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mook jong man
Senior Master
By the same token grapplers need to think of what type of response their attack will invoke and which of their own targets will be exposed as they attack.
The video shows the grappler attacking with what we would call a 'latch' in our lineage , a typical reaction would be to roll into a low Bong Sau trap the arm and strike them in the throat with the edge of the hand/forearm.
So the arm drag would not be able to put on in the first place as he would have already been hit in the throat.
But I will concede there is nothing wrong with cross training in grappling , keeps you enthusiastic about training , and quite a bit of my knife defence work contains a very large grappling component.
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Not familiar? Actually, many people from the WT lineages who'd trained the Biu Tze Chi-sau sets will be very familiar with dealing with that kind of circular arm-dragging. At least if the arm-drag/hook punch sequence is still being taught (it was Biu Tze Chi-Sau, "Section III" back in the late 80's when I learned it).
Personally, I think training against a good wrestler's arm-drag is more practical.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
On a keyboard, so I can post some complete sentences now. What I meant by the last post is that there are some major differences between the arm drag video I posted and the one posted above by Kung Fu Wang. A proper arm drag isn't intended to pull you in a circle. It's really not intended to pull you anywhere, although it can. The idea is to get to your opponent's side and then attack their middle. Call it the centerline or your opponent's center of gravity or their hips or whatever, but that's the idea.
As I said before, a proper arm drag is really just to keep an opponent from turning back into you only long enough for you to fill the space.
You'll notice in the video I posted, the person executing the arm drag isn't skirting around the outside of his opponent. He's not pulling his opponent in circles or even really focusing on the arm at all. He's blocking his opponent from turning as he drives straight through his opponent. In Judo, the same principle is called Kuzushi. Regardless of what you call it, the entire point of it is to disrupt one's opponent's stance and compromise their base.
From conversations with people who train in WC, I undersatnd that you focus on a stable stance and attacking the centerline. I get that you train for this. I'm simply trying to point out that competent grapplers are training specifically to disrupt a stable stance and to obstruct an opponent's ability to attack the centerline.
Am I saying that a competent WC guy is defenseless? No. I have no way of knowing. I do know, though, that the theory is similar, and the relative skill of the people involved will play a big part. I also believe that if you haven't dealt with a skilled wrestler, it's eye opening. I'm not a great wrestler. The explosiveness, strength and fluidity of the attacks are pretty awesome.
I will also say that having trained with skilled judoka, the specific techniques are a little different, but the results are the same. The judo player will attack the center. It's called kuzushi, which usually precedes being hit with the Earth by about a second.
As I said before, a proper arm drag is really just to keep an opponent from turning back into you only long enough for you to fill the space.
You'll notice in the video I posted, the person executing the arm drag isn't skirting around the outside of his opponent. He's not pulling his opponent in circles or even really focusing on the arm at all. He's blocking his opponent from turning as he drives straight through his opponent. In Judo, the same principle is called Kuzushi. Regardless of what you call it, the entire point of it is to disrupt one's opponent's stance and compromise their base.
From conversations with people who train in WC, I undersatnd that you focus on a stable stance and attacking the centerline. I get that you train for this. I'm simply trying to point out that competent grapplers are training specifically to disrupt a stable stance and to obstruct an opponent's ability to attack the centerline.
Am I saying that a competent WC guy is defenseless? No. I have no way of knowing. I do know, though, that the theory is similar, and the relative skill of the people involved will play a big part. I also believe that if you haven't dealt with a skilled wrestler, it's eye opening. I'm not a great wrestler. The explosiveness, strength and fluidity of the attacks are pretty awesome.
I will also say that having trained with skilled judoka, the specific techniques are a little different, but the results are the same. The judo player will attack the center. It's called kuzushi, which usually precedes being hit with the Earth by about a second.
The clip that you posted is used to guide your opponent's arm under your armpit so you can have 2 points control on his arm (control his elbow by your hand, and control his wrist by your armpit). You can use it to enter from your opponent's front door into his side door, or the other way around.
The clip that I posted is called "撕(Si) -Tearing". It's used to drag your opponent's body circular or linear. The purpose is to move toward your opponent's blind site to let his leading arm to jam his back arm. You also force him to either fight against you, or yield into you. In either cases, you try to borrow his force to against him.
Here is an example of linear drag.
Unless you can prevent your opponent from grabbing your arm. The moment that he grabs your arm and apply "撕(Si) -Tearing" on you, it will mess up your plan. As long as you try to block (deflect) your opponent's jab, back fist, or upper cut, your arm will touch his arm. That will give him the chance he needs.
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mook jong man
Senior Master
I will try to explain what will happen , as simply as I can what can happen if you try to get to the side of a decent Wing Chun person.
They will pivot , this pivot is done with the entire mass of the whole body as one unit.
Think of the Wing Chun persons body as a heavy revolving cylinder.
So even if you have a hold of their elbow , it is debatable to whether you will be able to stop them pivoting to face you , and then you will be back to square one with them right in front of you again , except now they will be hitting you.
The whole body pivoting of Wing Chun can be extremely powerful , because the upper and lower body is locked and turns as one unified mass.
They will pivot , this pivot is done with the entire mass of the whole body as one unit.
Think of the Wing Chun persons body as a heavy revolving cylinder.
So even if you have a hold of their elbow , it is debatable to whether you will be able to stop them pivoting to face you , and then you will be back to square one with them right in front of you again , except now they will be hitting you.
The whole body pivoting of Wing Chun can be extremely powerful , because the upper and lower body is locked and turns as one unified mass.
chinaboxer
Green Belt
come on mook, you know better. you are basically saying that a chunner can "adjust" their body structure as one unit to keep a grappling "technique" at bay. but a grappler is not stupid, he will do EXACTLY the same thing, "adjust" their body structure to continue attacking an opponent's centerline and/or center of balance to uproot them. once again, you can replace the word "wing chun" with "grappler" in your post and it would be 100% correct.
you cannot compare "apples" to "oranges". you can't compare a grappling "technique" versus a wing chun "concept", that just isn't fair at all. that's like saying if a wing chunner uses a (insert any single wing chun "technique" here) a grappler will drive their body structure into their center and then cut the corner to take the chunner down.
Jin
chinaboxer
Green Belt
this is why i say wing chun boils down to two things..
1. learn to handle "pressure"
2. problem solve
but like all things in the pursuit of artistry of any kind, "simple does not mean easy".
Jin
chinaboxer
Green Belt
i also like to use "anti striking" against wing chunners. :wuguns:
"there are two ways to be fooled. one is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to accept what is true." - soren kierkegaard
"there are two ways to be fooled. one is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to accept what is true." - soren kierkegaard
What's the maximum angle that you can turn by your "pivot"? 45 degree? 90 degree? What if you need to turn more than 90 degree? Do you need to move your left leg forward (assume your opponent drags your right arm)? You may find out that even if you pivot and face your opponent, your opponent may still drag your body forward. Whether you will yield of resist after that, your opponent may just borrow you commitment (this is what grapplers do the best) .
I strongly suggest you to get a training partner. Allow him to drag your arm like shown in the "linear drag" clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy6j9rwcahA
Try your solution 10 times and record your success/failure rate. There is nothing better than to draw conclusion all by yourself.
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mook jong man
Senior Master
The maximum angle you would pivot and still be stable would be 45 degrees.
If you had to pivot more than that , you would just move one leg back to re-adjust the stance to face the opponent.
Assuming the right arm is being controlled , the left leg may remain in the one spot and the right hip and leg will go back.
In Wing Chun the posture is such that it is not committed in any direction , the body is perfectly upright at all times , the body weight remains centralised.
I watched the video and all I was able to glean was that young guy didn't have a decent stance , was leaning forward and susceptible to being dragged around anyway.
Old guy then turned the corner and gave him his back.
Anyway I think I have just about exhausted my input into this topic and rather than risk becoming repetitive and boring I will bid you all adieu.
I really have enjoyed the debate with you gentlemen , it has been very interesting so far , with viewpoints expressed intelligently and in a civil manner.
As we are all aware these type of topics can all too quickly degenerate into a state of general rancor , which can be a shame , because they often contain quite a few gems of knowledge as well.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I want to point out that the arm drag wasn't intended to be the entire conversation. I meant it to be an example of some of the principles that a competent grappler will bring to bear. The principles are similar, mook jong man, to what you talk about. The grappler uses his entire body as one unit. Again, using the arm drag as an example, the control on the tricep isn't to pull you off balance. Rather, it's to create a window of opportunity. Wrestlers use a variety of techniques to create these opportunities. This is just one.
The principles, however, are the same. It's to use their entire body as one unit to deny you the space you need to execute your technique.
I understand that in WC you place a lot of emphasis on the strength and stability of your stance. I get that. But grappling is also grounded in solid bio-mechanical principles. If you don't understand that, you could truly be in trouble the first time you encounter it.
As I said before, if we're just talking about it, we could go on for days. It will ultimately boil down to which person is more effective at imposing the principles of his style on his opponent.
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