I did judo for a while before learning wing chun. I noticed applying the wc principles to ground work improves the effectiveness of what I previously learned in judo. Plus wing chun dog leg training helps with dealing with grapplers. Not many sifus seem to teach dog legs anymore.
Grappling and Wing Tsun.
- Thread starter jeff_hasbrouck
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Hey, if anyone wants to try out any anti-grappling with me, I'd be game. I make no claims to being a bad *** (anything but), but I do like grappling, and I'd be curious to see how a different approach pans out on the mats.
Steve-- that's a great offer, and if I lived closer, I'd take you up on it except that I've sworn off grappling since I blew out my back last year. Now I'm like half a martial artist ...afraid to go at it with any gusto. I can only hope I will recover more with time. But as to your offer, that's exactly what people need to do. You want to work "anti-grapling? Then find a friend whose good at a grappling art and work on it!!! Besides, it's fun. Really beats getting punched anyway.
Regarding "anti-grappling" I see two legitimate things going on, or if you prefer, two aspects or stages.
The first stage is preventative anti-grappling. Since WC works in close, you are an attractive target for a grappler. The WC guy needs to be aware of how a good grappler sets you up and has to learn how to use his structure and techniques not to get taken down.
The second stage is recuperative anti-grappling. That's learning how to use escapes and reversals to recover your WC stand-up game.
What anti-grappling is not: It's not another method of fighting the grappler at his own game.
Danny T
Senior Master
Wing Chun has a strong grappling element to it. The first few moves on the wooden dummy is a clinch situation. Clinch is grappling, the action of trapping has a very strong grappling element. The control of the opponent's limbs is grappling. Most Wing Chun practitioners simply do not train full clinch or the ground aspect, some of us do.
Laap Geng Sau is not a clinch, thought it is a grab... to we can punch the guy in the face harder or attack the legs if done from the outside.
Wing Chun bridges, we don't grapple. There's a big difference. If your bridging cannot deny grappling entry, then it's not very effective wing chun.
WC_lun
Senior Master
Have to agree with Eric H on this. If someone has come all the way through your structure be in a clinch, you failed to do your job as a Wing Chun man. Of course everyone make mistakes and when we do, we must understand where that mistake put us and how to get out of it. This is where training with grapplers can be very helpful.
+1000
if someone is shooting low i would knee him in the face as he was shooting, otherwise you can spread your legs wide to take away his targets....
if they do grapple me to the ground, first of all you failed....but i will pound the back of his head or go for his eyes.... grapplers don't practice against eye thrusts.
if they do grapple me to the ground, first of all you failed....but i will pound the back of his head or go for his eyes.... grapplers don't practice against eye thrusts.
WC_lun
Senior Master
With respect KCO, this shows you do not train with grapplers. If you lift your knee, you are on one foot now, facing a person who is trying to take you off your feet. You're energy is coming forward and if your timing is perfect you might make solid contact with the person's head. This doesn't gaurantee they stop coming either. However, if you miss or to not stop thier momentum backed by thier entire body weight, you are in a terrible position because you have no base and no time to sprawl. You are stuck trying to recover while the grappler is putting you on your back. If you are on your back to the ground and he is pummeling you, its probably not the time to try for eye gouges and such. You must recover and preferably get back to your feet. Probably not going to happen if you don't have at least some REALISTIC training on how to do that. This highlights perfectly what I said about training with trained grapplers so you know what happens when you mess up, and how to keep them from doing what they want to do.
that's a lot of "if's" in your reply.....there's no way to know what i would do in a fight situation....it depends on everything.....but it will be my fight, i'm not going to wrestle you....the bottom line is one of us will get hurt-i'm going to do Everything i can to make sure that's you and not me.....the one thing most grapplers don't get is this aint MMA....there are no rules in my fight.
mook jong man
Senior Master
I don't recommend trying to knee strike them in the face either , there are ways to shield the face with the arms and then quickly hook the leg which you have so graciously given them with your attempted knee strike.
We have to accept that there may not be any target available for striking , so a better option would be to control their head by placing downward pressure on it so that it slows there forward drive and takes the head out of alignment with the rest of the body which will reduce there ability to generate power.
At the same time you are doing this you also want to be lowering your center of gravity and getting your legs and hips back out of reach , from this control position then you can apply some type of downward strike to the base of his skull or neck.
We have to accept that there may not be any target available for striking , so a better option would be to control their head by placing downward pressure on it so that it slows there forward drive and takes the head out of alignment with the rest of the body which will reduce there ability to generate power.
At the same time you are doing this you also want to be lowering your center of gravity and getting your legs and hips back out of reach , from this control position then you can apply some type of downward strike to the base of his skull or neck.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
All of this is sound advice. It is also, for what it's worth, a good example of sound grappling technique.
Just for the record - I'm a grappler and I have practiced dealing with eye pokes. (Both deliberate simulated eye pokes for training purposes and accidental real ones) I've also practiced delivering them.
Eye pokes, groin shots, throat grabs, etc are all valid techniques, but they are secondary to having solid delivery mechanisms. Once you are on the ground, the person who can control the position is going to have a huge advantage in both delivering and defending against such "dirty fighting" methods. If you are on the ground with a grappler and can't stop him from mounting you, then your attempts at poking his eyes are likely to provoke a (much more effective) retaliation in kind from on top.
(I won't get into the discussion of takedown defense, since my takedowns are pretty mediocre at best.)
mook jong man
Senior Master
Not to mention you trying to reach up to his face to poke his eyes is just going to give him the opportunity to apply arm bars or push your arm to the side and apply a choke.
The wheel has already been invented , all the work has already been done , just use the grappling concepts to get into a position of control and apply your Wing Chun from there.
Knee strikes can work, but only if the grappler leads with the head. Most experienced dudes aren't going to do this.
Standard TCMA response is to work the head and neck. I'm reminded of a story about Vince Black from the Tang Shou Tao (spelling?) assoc who had a wrestling system guy challenge him, clapped the guy on the ears which KO'd him when the guy went for takedown.
Specific to WC I've worked a lot of manipulating the head (usually with a wu sao, low gahn or kiu sao) and dividing one of the arms simultaneously. We use knee strikes, but only to hack at the legs once you've checked the grappler's gravity/momentum.
mook jong man
Senior Master
That's how we do them too , once we control the head and one of the arms .
Usually a Fook Sau on the back of the head or neck and a low gahn sau to control his closest arm.
It's one of the easiest things to underestimate unless you've dealt with it in a live setting. For me, I had to go do NHB grappling for a few months until I understood the single/double leg better as my WC brothers weren't well trained in those kind of takedowns.
chinaboxer
Green Belt
you cannot "technique" your way out of a "pressure" situation
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