Good Cop / Bad Cop

[KP.]

In this thread on the MartialTalk.Com > Arts > General Self Defense > Law Enforcement forum, a discussion about a particular technique took a left turn and became a discussion about police conduct.

It was claimed in the discussion by Drac that:

Any and all injuries sustained by the arrested parties could be avoided if they would comply with our simple request of "Sir/Mam, STOP resisting.."

Which I personally find somewhat ludicrous. I would not disagree if he claimed that "some" injuries, or even if he stated that "most" injuries. After all, the majority of this nation's LEO's are professional folks trying to do a good job. But it is also the case that police misconduct, and police brutality, are a problem in our cities police forces.

A bit later in the discussion, this point was made:

I don't disagree that there are far more good cops than bad. My point was that too many do go beyond where they are allowed to go. The closer one gets to the inner city, the greater that number becomes.

Ever stop to think that perhaps that is due to a relationship between the police AND the clientele? What (and who) the police have to deal with in the "inner city" is different from the suburbs. It doesnt excuse improper use of force, but the cop who acts like officer friendly in the projects is going to get his *** handed to him.

Not a PC answer perhaps, but the truth as I see it.

I don't disagree that the reality of the task of policing in the inner cities is that it is more stressful, and there are more "bad guys" around (or at least folks who really dislike the police), but does that excuse mistreatment?

There are real problems that exist between inner city communities and the police, systemic mistrust on both sides renders interactions in investigations and neighborhood policing efforts difficult at best. Does police violence make those relationships better or worse? And, does that serve to help or harm the police and community as a whole? Is it blown out of proportion, or does the rate of events, how ever few they may be when taken with all interactions over the nation as a whole, present real issues for how the police and community interact at local levels?

Does a person's social-economic background effect how they view the police because of past interactions or events? What can be done to change that if it is considered a problem. If it is not considered a problem, why not?

 

[Archangel M]

Mistreatment is in the eye of the beholder.

Some "mistreatment" is plain ******** from people who just didn't like getting arrested for what they did.

Some "mistreatment" is people thinking that running from a robbery and fighting with police should mean being asked nicely to turn around and put their hands behind their backs.

Some "mistreatment" is from people who think that they can be disrespectful, abusive, uncooperative and general *******s with the police and then not like the "attitude" they get back.

Some "mistreatment" is mommy not liking the way her little baby got treated after running from the police after a robbery, a car chase and a fight.

Some "mistreatment" is plain old ******** from people who want a lawsuit and a payday based on lies.

Some "mistreatment" is from aggravated, tired and beaten down cops who are good guys that have lost their focus.

Some "mistreatment" IS bad cops who should be removed from the job.


Find Chris Rocks video on getting your *** kicked by the police... #1 OBEY THE LAW.

 

[Cryozombie]

Find Chris Rocks video on getting your *** kicked by the police... #1 OBEY THE LAW.

Yeah... cuz the cops NEVER interact with anyone who hasn't broken the law...

No one gets pulled over for "roadside safety checks" just for driving down the road they are checking that night.

No one ever gets stopped because their vehicle matches the description of one thats being looked for.

No one gets questioned because something was stolen from their former employer, and even tho they didn't do the theft, they are questioned for it because they were reported as leaving on bad terms...

Hell man, I personally, years ago was stopped and ticketed for speeding in a residential area even tho I was driving under the posted speed limit. It was thrown out in court, but don't tell me I should have "Obeyed the Law" because I was, and the COP was in the wrong.

It happens sometimes.

 

[Archangel M]

Perhaps you didnt read the last 2 lines in my list?

The rest of my points are just as valid as yours DEAL WITH IT!!!!

 

[KP.]

Yeah... cuz the cops NEVER interact with anyone who hasn't broken the law...

More to the point, even if they have broken the law, are the standards "suggestions?"

And when those standards are violated, to what level must they be violated before meaningful action is taken.

The reality of police brutality would be tolerated (or at least willfully ignored) a lot more by the residents of inner cities where I have lived if it were believed that the bad cops were treated the same way as any other criminal. But the perception (and in at least a few high profile cases, the reality) is that such is not the case. Moreover, even if recent changes have been bringing that sort of double-standard more into line of equal treatment, these communities exist with the knowledge of the past, and rightly or wrongly, the practices of 1978 effect perceptions in 2008.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I have friends and met some who are good police officers.

I have met some bad cops in my time as well.


I have met some who were just having a bad day as well.


I have I been hit by cops before? Yes.

Was I resisting? No. My hands were behind my back, and I was surrounded by the one officer questioning me and his backup. The back up was four other officers, plus others watching the vehicle.

What? This makes no sense, Rich you must have been doing something wrong to that many police officers "talking" to you. What the heck happened?

There had been two guys in two tone Grey and Dark Red Two Door Biuck Regal 1975 that were running over lawns in the wealthy neighborhoods. We were coming home from a teen club with live music, and were dropping people off at 11:00 PM. We had 6 guys in a four door 1978 White Oldsmobile Royale.

We were pulled over, and told to wait while more police showed up. Then a car driving a couple of young women in the back drove by and pointed at us. I heard one say, "yes that is them."

That is when the night got bad. I was in the back seat in February with the windows down (* to precent fogging so the police could watch us, but they had over ten cars present and could have put us in the back of them. *) freezing. The police officers had already secured the driver. They then proceeded to to talk to the passengers int eh front seat out of the car. Not nicely either. Lots of pushes and shoves, even while they were walking. Then it came to my turn. The officer(s) were upset and they opened the door. I asked if I was to get out or remain seated, asn they had opened the door previously and yelled at me when I went to get out. The officer just grabbed me and pulled me out by my hair. I got out and just stood there. He asked what my name was so he could go through our ID's to find me. Other officers came over to back him up. You see I was 6'2" going on 6'3" and about 200 to 210 lbs no gut. The officer that grabbed me by my hair was 5'5" and about 150 lbs. So I guess he needed back up. As some were carrying their flash lights and others were jsut acting too nervous for me, I stood straight and looked ahead with my hands behind my back and tried not to do anything wrong. I answered the officers questions with Yes Sir and No Sir and with data, Sir. I was then yelled at for about 3 minutes about calling him sir. So we then went through all the same questions again with me just answering with no response of sir, just the answer. He then asked me how old I was. I said 15. It being February as I mentioned and my birthday being in September. The officer, replied "Idiot, you are 16. You do not even know who old you are. How stupid are you?" I replied, "I will be 16 in September." He then hit me in the gut, with a followed up upper cut to the face as I was partialy bent over. I did not pull my hands from my back. I yelled I am not resisting, I only answered your question. I yelled as of course ten plus police cars got the neighborhood out. I then was taught a lesson. The officer is always in control. The officer is always right. The officer does not like to be corrected or told something he does not like to hear. It was a very enlightening experience being hit from behind and from the side and from the front. I was even kicked on the ground when I fell. I never once removed my hands from behind my back. I grabbed them and did not let go. When it was over, and while it seemed like a long time to me I am sure it was quite quick, I was placed back into the vehicle I had been a passenger in and told to wait. I did. The police came back to ask more questions. This time it was the 5'5" cop (* Yes this is when I startd to refer to bad police officers as Cops and I try to keep it that way in my mind as well *) and a 6'6" officer. The 6'6" officer said he would question me as I seemed to have a problem with the other officer. This officer then asked all the questions again. I realized also this is what made them upset. I knew exactly where I was and when the whole night. I had a brand new watch and kept checking it. So I knew at what time we picked up so and so and what time we got to the teen club and when we left and so forth. They though since I had actual data I was making it up. I was lying. This taller officer then got made at me and yelled at me that he was going to call my parents. I looked him in the eyes, and I stated, "Please call my parents, so I can tell them everything that has happened tonight." He then grabbed me by the collar and belt and started to pull drag me to the back of a police car. He stated, "I hope your parents can afford a fine for $500 for destruction of private property." As he was throwing me face firts into the back of the car, I look over my shoulder, and said something in anger. I stated, "Would that be cash check or charge?" He then yelled at me to not move or breath or anything. I was face down on teh back seat. He then slammed the car door into my legs. He yelled at me to move my legs. I bent them up. He closed the door. A few minutes later the officer in the front seat, told me I could begin to breath. So, I stopped my real shallow breaths and breathed normal. He then told me to sit up straight. I did.

30 minutes later, they let us all go. They wrote the driver up for doing 26 in a 25 zone. They then sent officers to all of our homes to tell our parents we had been pulled over for speeding and that we had started a fight with them, and then the ADA will be looking into resisting arrest charges and assaulting an officer charges.

That was Friday night.

Saturday all day I went and gathered data from listening to people talk about what they did Friday. By Monday morning I knew who the driver and passenger were and the vehicle they were in. As described above it was no way similar and no real way to get confused between the two.

On Monday Morning I went to see the school detective. He was very surprised to see me, as he had my name on a list of students to watch. You see he knew me. My Mom worked for the school and was a Union rep for her area. I was an A-B honor roll student that all the staff knew and knew was not a trouble maker.

I explained to him what happened. He asked me, what was more important to me, see the bad guys caught and my name getting clear, or having my day against the officer(s) that hit me. I told him I wanted my name cleared, as it would be hard to prove anything against that many officers in aprticular since the chief was there that night. He smiled and told me I was a smart kid.

They busted the two guys who did it. They caught them the next weekend, as they had been watching them.



My point it that it only takes a few to make it look bad for everyone. My experience with the police in general is not good, but I have had some good experiences as well, just the bad out weigh the good. And no I am not talking about the couple of speeding tickets I have gotten in my life. I was speeding, I may not have been treated well, but I was nto arguing that issue nor counting those incidents.

 

[The Last Legionary]

A little outdated as it's for 2004.

In the Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, one arrest is counted for each separate instance in which an individual is arrested, cited, or summoned for criminal acts in Part I and Part II crimes. (See Appendix II for additional information concerning Part I and Part II crimes.) One person may be arrested multiple times during the year; as a result, the arrest figures in this section should not be viewed as a total number of individuals arrested. Rather, this section provides the number of arrest occurrences that were reported by law enforcement.

National Volume, Trends, and Rates
In 2004, the UCR Program estimated the number of arrests in the United States for all criminal offenses (except traffic violations) at approximately 14 million. Law enforcement made an estimated 1.6 million arrests (11.8 percent of all arrests) for property crimes and 586,558 arrests (4.2 percent of all arrests) for violent crimes. Law officers made more arrests for drug abuse violations (an estimated 1.7 million arrests and 12.5 percent of all arrests) than for any other offense. (See Table 29.)

In 2004, the estimated rate of arrests in the Nation was 4,752.4 arrests per 100,000 residents. Arrests for violent crimes were measured at a rate of 200.4 arrests per 100,000 inhabitants—for property crimes, 565.8 arrests per 100,000 persons. (See Table 30.)

With me so far? Good. Keep reading

By gender, 76.2 percent of arrests in 2004 were of males. Males accounted for 82.1 percent of the total number of arrestees for violent crimes and 68.1 percent of the total for property crimes. (See Table 42.)

A review of the 2004 arrest data by race indicated that 70.8 percent of arrestees were white, 26.8 percent were black, and 2.4 percent were of other races (American Indian or Alaskan Native and Asian or Pacific Islander). Of all arrestees for violent crimes, 60.9 percent were white, 36.9 percent were black, and the remainder were of other races. Of all arrestees for property crimes, 69.3 percent were white, 28.2 percent were black and the remaining 2.5 percent were of other races. Whites were most commonly arrested for driving under the influence (893,212 arrests) and drug abuse violations (821,047 arrests). Blacks were most frequently arrested for drug abuse violations (406,890 arrests) and simple assaults (288,286 arrests).

There's the race data.

Sources:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/persons_arrested/index.html

 

[MJS]

In this thread on the MartialTalk.Com > Arts > General Self Defense > Law Enforcement forum, a discussion about a particular technique took a left turn and became a discussion about police conduct.

It was claimed in the discussion by Drac that:



Which I personally find somewhat ludicrous. I would not disagree if he claimed that "some" injuries, or even if he stated that "most" injuries. After all, the majority of this nation's LEO's are professional folks trying to do a good job. But it is also the case that police misconduct, and police brutality, are a problem in our cities police forces.

Why do you find that ludicrous? I've seen people comply while being arrested and no injuries happen. I've also seen people resist and yes, their arm will be twisted, they may be taken to the ground, they may have a knee across their shoulders. Again, what is so odd about that? Abuse would be beating on them after they're cuffed. Now, if they're cuffed and they start to spit or kick or try to twist away from the officer, again, that is resisting, so if they're brought to the ground again, that is not abuse.

IMHO, you seem to be under this impression that if any force is used, the cop is in the wrong. Let me ask you...have you had some bad run ins with the law?

A bit later in the discussion, this point was made:



I don't disagree that the reality of the task of policing in the inner cities is that it is more stressful, and there are more "bad guys" around (or at least folks who really dislike the police), but does that excuse mistreatment?

Lets put the shoe on the other foot for a moment. Please tell us, if you were an LEO, how you would handle someone resisting? If you seem to think that anything more than a gentle touch is abuse, please share with us how you would handle this?

There are real problems that exist between inner city communities and the police, systemic mistrust on both sides renders interactions in investigations and neighborhood policing efforts difficult at best. Does police violence make those relationships better or worse? And, does that serve to help or harm the police and community as a whole? Is it blown out of proportion, or does the rate of events, how ever few they may be when taken with all interactions over the nation as a whole, present real issues for how the police and community interact at local levels?

Are you kidding me?? Community policing is a huge thing with many PDs today. Interestingly enough, the PD I work for seems to concentrate the majority of their efforts on the Main St./North End area, where there is alot of businesses as well as low income housing. Hmm..there are 5 cops that take care of that area, vs. the 1 per district for the rest of the city. Some of these guys are walking so as to better interact with the public.

Does a person's social-economic background effect how they view the police because of past interactions or events? What can be done to change that if it is considered a problem. If it is not considered a problem, why not?

Why is the race card always brought into play??? Keep in mind that the officers I work with, know their areas well, as well as the regulars. Why are the regulars known so well? Because many times they're the problem people. So it doesnt matter if they're white, black, or pink...people control how they're viewed, and if they choose to always get in trouble, that is the label they will carry. The first step to bettering an area starts with the people. If an area has people that don't give a crap, well, nothing will change.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Youtube has a number of videos involving alleged cases of police brutality.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=police+brutalty&search_type=&aq=f

Some are crap, some look legit.

Anytime there is a protest you read stories of cops backing horses into people, knocking down, roughing up and dragging innocent reporters across gravel, etc. Recent reports indicate a disturbing trend where anyone with a camera is given "special attention" by uniformed officers during police actions, usually involving "accidental" smashing of equipment, and "incidental" injuries, from "involuntary" contact with non yielding objects such as walls, cars and of course the ground. PoliceAbuse.com has a list of over 100 active complaints.

Then there are the complaints that arose from the recent political conventions in the US.
http://www.rcfp.org/newsitems/index.php?i=2457

What you will rarely see however are the thousands of good cops who risk their lives daily, or who go out of their way to try to make a difference, often running solo at great risk to themselves. Rare is the front page report of a cop who did good, but an accusation of wrong will be there. The aquittal will be in secion C if mentioned at all. Cops on solo duty face the greatest risk of injury as even a basic traffic stop can turn deadly as anyone who's watched any cop video shows will know.

Bad cops need to be removed from the force, and punished.
It'd be nice if the good ones were recognized as well.

Now please stop sending me the PBA notices, my car window is full.

 

[The Last Legionary]

It's been my experience that the ones ranting most online about evil police are usually someone who has had run ins where the cops didn't recognize their being an exception to law and decency.

Some young "thug 4 life" type who gets pissed when the gumball flashers show up at 2am and tell him to turn his rapcrap **** off because people are trying to sleep, or they are hanging out in an upscale shopping center dressed like hobo's who got the rag pickers rejects with more *** crack showing than a plumbers convention.

You know. Scum suckers!
:btg:

 

[Carol]

Know what the LEOs are looking for.

Avoid being what they are looking for.

Makes any potential encounter go a lot more smoothly.

 

[MJS]

I work in a city that is home to a University. Every Thur-Sat night, its party night. Drive around the area around 11, 12 at night, and you'll see a huge number of people walking. Recently, there was a huge house party. Hundreds of people in the street. Campus security went and told them to quiet down and attempted to disperse the large gathering, which of course failed.

The city police were called. Now, on the midnight shift where I work, there is about 6 or 7 cops plus a road Sgt. Thats it. The entire shift responds because of the large group. Due to the fact that many of the kids were drinking, not leaving and also calling others who were not there, to come down to that location, officers from 2 other towns were called, as well as State Police.

Of course, there was tasers, OC, dogs, etc. which is all par for the course and perfectly within their rights due to the situation.

So, needless to say, the kids cried and complained and claimed that the police response was too much, too much force was used, cry, cry, cry. After a long investigation, the city cops were cleared, with no charges filed.

Now, this is a clear cut example of what many of us are talking about. When these punks were asked to leave, why didn't they? No, instead, they stay, call more of their friends to come down, and feel the need to throw bottles. Yeah, real mature people we have here, and they have the nerve to complain that too many cops came to the scene? Are you friggin kidding me?

ALL of this couldve been avoided if they acted like adults and did what was asked. So, to disperse the crowd, gas was shot off, but wait...thats too much force. All this could've been avoided if they just left. To disperse the crowd, dogs were used. But this was too much force. You have huge odds, so more cops are called to help. But this is too much force.

I stand by my past comments....people must love to bring on headaches for themselves, because if they just did what was asked, half their problems would go away.

 

[Cryozombie]

It's been my experience that the ones ranting most online about evil police are usually someone who has had run ins where the cops didn't recognize their being an exception to law and decency.

I rant often about cops online, havn't been arrested, I have no criminal record. BUT... I have been questioned for various things I was not involved in, treated like I was some kind of Douchebag because I was present or the one being "questioned".

My Father was a cop. My Hapkido instructor was a cop.

My Current dojo has cops in it.

I can say safely that I am OFTEN in social situations with cops who are not interacting with me because I am some kind of a criminal douchebag. And I guarantee most of you would be appalled by some of the things these guys talk/brag about... and I'm sorry to the LEO members on this board who think almost everything a cop does is justified, because if it was done, the guy must have been being a douchebag... If you could defend some of this behavior, It doesn't bode well for what we can expect from cops.

This is not to say I don't know some exceptional cops, or that I have not had good experiences with some as well... But don't expect me drink the kool aid and think that cops are always "in the right" because the truth is, been around em enough that I don't buy it.

 

[Archangel M]

Ive got friends who are black....Hispanic...Gay......

 

[Drac]

Like Rich Parson I was slammed around by a bunch of burb cops when my vehicle and description matched a 5 min old armed robbery..When checking me they found my off duty weapon and I was slammed into the hood of a police car..When they extracted my wallet and saw my badge and ID they let go...I shook the hand of every officer there and said Good Job..

 

[MJS]

I rant often about cops online, havn't been arrested, I have no criminal record. BUT... I have been questioned for various things I was not involved in, treated like I was some kind of Douchebag because I was present or the one being "questioned".

My Father was a cop. My Hapkido instructor was a cop.

My Current dojo has cops in it.

I can say safely that I am OFTEN in social situations with cops who are not interacting with me because I am some kind of a criminal douchebag. And I guarantee most of you would be appalled by some of the things these guys talk/brag about... and I'm sorry to the LEO members on this board who think almost everything a cop does is justified, because if it was done, the guy must have been being a douchebag... If you could defend some of this behavior, It doesn't bode well for what we can expect from cops.

This is not to say I don't know some exceptional cops, or that I have not had good experiences with some as well... But don't expect me drink the kool aid and think that cops are always "in the right" because the truth is, been around em enough that I don't buy it.

Hopefully I won't be accused of pointing figners here, but reading your post, I can't help but to think that there's more to the story here.

 

[Archangel M]

I just dont get the whole "all cops think that all cops are innocent angels". Ive never heard that. Any cop will tell you stories...However, a bunch of cops standing around talking "war stories" is far from "evidence: of anything.

And I do believe that there are plenty of "abuse" allegations that are pure BS.

 

[Carol]

I just dont get the whole "all cops think that all cops are innocent angels". Ive never heard that. Any cop will tell you stories...However, a bunch of cops standing around talking "war stories" is far from "evidence: of anything.

And I do believe that there are plenty of "abuse" allegations that are pure BS.

Somehow I don't think an "innocent angel" would last too long with the crowd that you folks have to deal with every day.

 

[Cryozombie]

Hopefully I won't be accused of pointing figners here, but reading your post, I can't help but to think that there's more to the story here.

Which story? About me being questioned? I have more than one, but the most recent isn't worst... If you want it, I'll be happy to share it.

 

[MJS]

Which story? About me being questioned? I have more than one, but the most recent is worst... If you want it, I'll be happy to share it.

I'm sorry, yes, the one where you were questioned, or whichever you feel more comfortable about sharing.