GM Wu Tunan Disciple M.Lilian

[windwalker099]

An interesting example of fast Taiji expression,
from GM Wu Tunan’s disciple, M. Lilian

​

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's Wu Taijiquan?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like training Taiji with fast speed. It makes me feel young. Who said that old people have to move slow. It's nice to see some effective kick/punch in Taiji solo form training.

 

[windwalker099]

That's Wu Taijiquan?

From my reading of his Taiji, Wu Tunan started in Wu-style, but developed something softer, more internal, deeply focused on emptiness, intention, and qi. It’s called Wu Taiji, but it’s very much his own.

He was known for his age, and for what some might call high-level internal skill.

 

[isshinryuronin]

From my reading of his Taiji, Wu Tunan started in Wu-style, but developed something softer, more internal, deeply focused on emptiness, intention, and qi. It’s called Wu Taiji, but it’s very much his own.

He was known for his age, and for what some might call high-level internal skill.

The people in this clip are a great endorsement for taiji. They exude vitality and love of life and having fun. Great that the children see this and while likely have little comprehension of what they're watching, one can see they're into it. "What? Old people can move like that?" No walkers for that bunch. That's TMA.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"What? Old people can move like that?" No walkers for that bunch. That's TMA.

It's so funny that in US, only young guys grow beard. Old guys don't grow beard at all. Our current vice-president (he is not old) grows beard. Our current president and previous president don't grow beard.

I don't like old Chinese grow beard. You are already old. Why do you want to look even older. Both of my MA teachers didn't grow beard at all.

 

[Same Trick]

Some good healthy reasons for martial arts beard -

“hair is a natural extension of our nervous system, balancing the electromagnetic field in our body. Our hair tips serve as an antenna that gathers energy from the universe”


Hair and Spiritual Energy: What is Their Relationship?



“These data support the hypothesis that human beards protect vulnerable regions of the facial skeleton from damaging strikes,”



Did beards evolve to protect men from punches? Here’s what U. of U. researchers discovered

 

[Same Trick]

Wu Tunan learned both Wu and Yang tjq.
However about fast taiji form regarding those styles there really aren’t any such set form, any such fast forms seen today are recent creations and in my mind a wrong thing.
In Yang/Wu any fast method should spontaneously grow from the authentic slow and even phased form, it’s an individual somewhat spirited spontaneous expression that spring forth and it may do so differently from time to time - it’s never a set fast form

 

[Teapot]

He was known for his age, and for what some might call high-level internal skill.

Didn't he lie about his age to pretend to be older than he is?

And by extension, a lot of his other claims would also have to be lies.

Apparently, the text on the left side says "中華民國十七年十月" which results in the year 1928. And this is for a documented 26-year-old Wu Tunan.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Wu Tunan learned both Wu and Yang tjq.
However about fast taiji form regarding those styles there really aren’t any such set form, any such fast forms seen today are recent creations and in my mind a wrong thing.
In Yang/Wu any fast method should spontaneously grow from the authentic slow and even phased form, it’s an individual somewhat spirited spontaneous expression that spring forth and it may do so differently from time to time - it’s never a set fast form

Define recent.
Yang Chengfu 1883 - 1936
Tung Ying Chieh 1898 - 1961

There are 2 fast sets from Tung Ying Chieh.
1) comes from discussions Tung Ying Chieh was having with Yang Chengfu. Yang Chengfu wanted a fajin set, and they were working on it. However Yang Chengfu died before it was finished. So Tung Ying Chieh finished it and called it the Yang Fast Form.
2) Tung Ying Cheih also created a second fast form based on his Wu/Hao and Yang style background. This Became the Tung Fast Form

 

[windwalker099]

Didn't he lie about his age to pretend to be older than he is?

And by extension, a lot of his other claims would also have to be lies.

History always interesting

The famed Wu Tunan (also known as the Northern Star of Taijiquan) was in charge. A discussion came up, with regards to categorization of styles,leading to a great deal of controversy as to where Chen Style Taijiquan belonged. Some suggested that it belonged to the External Division. At the time, the slow and gentle nature of Yang style Taijiquan was considered the standard of Taijiquan. What Chen Fake practiced certainly did not fall fall into this category.

Wu Tunan was respected for his ability. People who encountered him spoke about his internal quality,
not just the stories around him.

As with many things in China, especially from that era, the facts aren’t always clear. Historical records can be vague, stories often shaped by reputation, politics, or legacy, building.

It’s possible parts of his biography were stretched.
Not interested in why or what,

This thread not about it

 

[windwalker099]

Wu Tunan learned both Wu and Yang tjq.
However about fast taiji form regarding those styles there really aren’t any such set form, any such fast forms seen today are recent creations and in my mind a wrong thing.
In Yang/Wu any fast method should spontaneously grow from the authentic slow and even phased form, it’s an individual somewhat spirited spontaneous expression that spring forth and it may do so differently from time to time - it’s never a set fast form

Agree,

My exposure to Taiji fast sets was through the Tung/Dong Taiji line, part of my own Taiji journey.

Never quite understood the need for them. The long form, like any form, a method of training. Over time, the focus seems to have shifted, with the sets themselves often becoming more important than the demonstrable skills they were originally meant to cultivate, regardless of whether they’re practiced fast or slow.
Having said this, I do find them interesting to watch, appreciate the skill in practice..

In my teacher’s group, how one played the form varied depending on when they trained with him, shaped by each individual's level of skill. There was no emphasis on fast forms in fact, quite the opposite. The slower the practice, the more it reflected depth and refinement.

They could move quite fast when needed.

For some the "fast" becomes and end unto itself, more important then the theory behind the skills they’re meant to develop.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Over time, the focus seems to have shifted, with the sets themselves often becoming more important than the demonstrable skills they were originally meant to cultivate, regardless of whether they’re practiced fast or slow.

This is very common in many facets of life over time. Taking off one's hat indoors and shaking hands are rituals that had roots in warriors showing vulnerability and trust. Now we do them with little thought. MA kata and forms too. We carry on such rituals, forgetting the reasons they were originally developed. Like a song whose melody is remembered, but not the words. We can hum along, but we've lost the lyrics and the message the song was written to convey. We must take care not to let kata/forms become simple TMA ritual.

In Yang/Wu any fast method should spontaneously grow from the authentic slow and even phased form, it’s an individual somewhat spirited spontaneous expression that spring forth and it may do so differently from time to time

That fast can spontaneously grow from slow may be true, providing one has practiced fast. In my experience, moving slow can also develop some qualities that can help enable fast, but there are also differences between the two. I'm not familiar with taiji power generation (so I hope I'm not far off-base here) but it appears the full motion is executed in the same flowing manner throughout the technique.

In contrast, karate kata is normally executed with speed, requiring variable components: 1. Mild tension to provide a solid foundation to launch from. 2. Relaxed flow during the technique motion to allow speed without opposing muscles acting counter-productively. 3. High tension at impact (chinkuchi) to maximize power transfer.

I think there is a mental/spiritual difference between the two as well. A "slow" calm mind vs a "fast" slightly more excited mind. Both kinds, like the physical elements, IMO, need to be cultivated to be able to move both slow and fast, and to transition from one to the other.

 

[windwalker099]

In my experience, moving slow can also develop some qualities that can help enable fast, but there are also differences between the two.

Depends on the practice,why it’s done, and how. In many internal arts, the key idea is: "Yi leads the motion"
Slow connected, aware movement develops this. The requirements can be quite strict in practice.
All Taiji, if practiced according to the requirements is physically demanding.

Through the "Six Harmonies", both body and mind align:





Once these are in place, speed becomes irrelevant, as the interaction shifts from the physical to the intangible. For those reaching this point, most continue to go deeper through slow work.

I'm not familiar with taiji power generation (so I hope I'm not far off-base here) but it appears the full motion is executed in the same flowing manner throughout the technique.

IME, depends on the line of taiji, how it's expressed. Among the same lines using the same theory, It's very consistent.

Kinda depends like many things on what one is looking for and expectations.

 

[Same Trick]

Define recent.
Yang Chengfu 1883 - 1936
Tung Ying Chieh 1898 - 1961

There are 2 fast sets from Tung Ying Chieh.
1) comes from discussions Tung Ying Chieh was having with Yang Chengfu. Yang Chengfu wanted a fajin set, and they were working on it. However Yang Chengfu died before it was finished. So Tung Ying Chieh finished it and called it the Yang Fast Form.
2) Tung Ying Cheih also created a second fast form based on his Wu/Hao and Yang style background. This Became the Tung Fast Form

Is there any valid source from Yang Chengfu himself that he wanted to have have a specific “fajin set” ? As for now I think it’s solely a claim by the Dong family after YCF’s passing, so yes I say “recent” meaning students after YCF death,

 

[Same Trick]

Agree,

My exposure to Taiji fast sets was through the Tung/Dong Taiji line, part of my own Taiji journey.

Never quite understood the need for them. The long form, like any form, a method of training. Over time, the focus seems to have shifted, with the sets themselves often becoming more important than the demonstrable skills they were originally meant to cultivate, regardless of whether they’re practiced fast or slow.
Having said this, I do find them interesting to watch, appreciate the skill in practice..

In my teacher’s group, how one played the form varied depending on when they trained with him, shaped by each individual's level of skill. There was no emphasis on fast forms in fact, quite the opposite. The slower the practice, the more it reflected depth and refinement.

They could move quite fast when needed.

For some the "fast" becomes and end unto itself, more important then the theory behind the skills they’re meant to develop.

I think the set fast form thing in Yang/Wu came about as a “fast food” appetizer thing, but also as an answer to the wider popularity Chen family gong fu began to gain, jumping and stomping began to be seen by the public as the real Taiji, people forgot that the Yangs and Wu’s quite on their own stood tall among all martial arts before the Chen’s came to the big cities to capitalize on the name Taijiquan.

 

[Same Trick]

This is very common in many facets of life over time. Taking off one's hat indoors and shaking hands are rituals that had roots in warriors showing vulnerability and trust. Now we do them with little thought. MA kata and forms too. We carry on such rituals, forgetting the reasons they were originally developed. Like a song whose melody is remembered, but not the words. We can hum along, but we've lost the lyrics and the message the song was written to convey. We must take care not to let kata/forms become simple TMA ritual.

That fast can spontaneously grow from slow may be true, providing one has practiced fast. In my experience, moving slow can also develop some qualities that can help enable fast, but there are also differences between the two. I'm not familiar with taiji power generation (so I hope I'm not far off-base here) but it appears the full motion is executed in the same flowing manner throughout the technique.

In contrast, karate kata is normally executed with speed, requiring variable components: 1. Mild tension to provide a solid foundation to launch from. 2. Relaxed flow during the technique motion to allow speed without opposing muscles acting counter-productively. 3. High tension at impact (chinkuchi) to maximize power transfer.

I think there is a mental/spiritual difference between the two as well. A "slow" calm mind vs a "fast" slightly more excited mind. Both kinds, like the physical elements, IMO, need to be cultivated to be able to move both slow and fast, and to transition from one to the other.

Yes, the TJQ slow isn’t just slow performance but there must be specific mental components involved and whith those components one can clearly see how the “taiji slow” directly ties to “fast”.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Is there any valid source from Yang Chengfu himself that he wanted to have have a specific “fajin set” ? As for now I think it’s solely a claim by the Dong family after YCF’s passing, so yes I say “recent” meaning students after YCF death,

it was the claim of my Shifu (not Tung Family) who was a student of Tung Ying Chieh, who got it from Tung Ying Chieh. And my shifu learned the forms from Tung Ying Chieh. But you go with what you want to believe.

 

[Same Trick]

it was the claim of my Shifu (not Tung Family) who was a student of Tung Ying Chieh, who got it from Tung Ying Chieh. And my shifu learned the forms from Tung Ying Chieh. But you go with what you want to believe.

In not bashing Dong-taijiquan, but there’s a reason it’s called that - Dong TJQ, and in that sense they’re honest