Gloves vs Fist. Which one wins for you

[Gerry Seymour]

The upward block is a good block but in one picture the guy is blocking a staff. You should never block a weapon with your arm, if someone's attacking with a weapon then you evade and block the arm not the weapon.

I'm not a big fan of "never".

 

[Kickboxer101]

I'm not a big fan of "never".

So you'd ever block a wooden or metal staff coming at you with force with your arm

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you'd ever block a wooden or metal staff coming at you with force with your arm

Yeah, if I wasn't able to get out of the way. Better my arm than my head.

 

[lklawson]

If you are going to block then punch off two beats. Block then punch off the same arm.

If you are going to do it off one beat. You have to either be really fast or know that punch is coming. In fisty fighting this is really quite hard.

The fencing world has been describing these "actions" for centuries, and in very similar terms to what you're using here, "beat" or "tempo" ("tempi") or sometimes "time." A double-time (or two-beat) counter is exactly that, a parry then riposte. A single-time counter is a parry simultaneous with a riposte and is generally considered more sophisticated.

Fencing Glossary - Dictionary of Fencing Terms
Glossary of fencing - Wikipedia

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I never said they haven't, The only person I referred to was the guy in the Bartitsu video who did the technique as a block and then punch.

Correction. You said it was "wrong." Multiple times, in fact. It's not wrong. It's just a dui tempo movement.

Here's a video of him sparring and doing the 1 step application as he showed in his previous video. You will see that the technique fails when done as a 1 then 2. Had he sent the punch at the same time then he would have made contact without the need to muscle his opponents arm the way he did. The upward movement of the "block" (actually a redirect) arm was also off. If that arm does not go up ward then all that will happen is the grind that you'll also see. See the 0:59 mark. .

So you're big contribution is that a double-time counter is easier to block, and therefore "fails" more often, than a single-time counter? Well, gee, water is wet.

 

[lklawson]

One other thing you need to know and @lklawson can correct me if I am wrong. Bartitsu is basically in a process of rediscovery. We have articles written at the time, photographs etc but the "Bartitsu Club" of London closed in the early 20th century and while there were instructors for the individual arts at the Club who went to teach elsewhere the guy who put it all together into Bartitsu stopped publically teaching and then obviously died at some point. So what @lklawson is speaking of can be absolutely true for the people refining it in the US and then you can go to Germany and have some differences.

In a lot of ways, yes. In some ways, no. The Bartitsu Society isn't a governing board the way that USJA is, for instance. The Bartitsu Society doesn't accredit, test, rank, or certify nor does it have any sort of regulations on curriculum for individual members or clubs. Various people are free to read the manuals, or not, and try to implement based on whatever guides seem to work for them. The individual members of the Bartitsu Society with more experience can offer advice and suggestions, even training, to people who desire it, but no one is required to take the advice. Does that mean that some people's understanding may be a bit shallow from time to time? Yup. But to the best of my recollection, the Bartitsu Society has never officially repudiated anyone.

Bartitsu study is the very definition of free-form, "organic" development.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

In reference to the technique at 0:59. What you saw are a number of body mechanics not connecting. Most people think that the arm is lifting the punch (where the fist stays horizontal), but in reality the arm is rising in a circular motion (where the thumb points down). This circular motion creates the structure necessary to redirect it over the head. The turning of the forearm as you are doing the block will provide a stronger structure than not turning the forearm. If I keep my forearm straight with my fist horizontal to the ground (with thumb pointing horizonta towards me) then my structure will fail as it causes more stress to be put on the arm. If you slow the video down and pause it, you can actually see that thumb is horizontal and eventually points to the ceiling when it should be turning vertical with the thumb pointing towards the ground. If you hold your hand in that position and ask someone to push forward on your forearm towards you, then you should be able to feel the stress on your elbow or shoulder. However, if you put your arm in that same position and turn your thumb towards your face then your arm is able tor resist more pressure. In order to he the arm higher you will need to do a circular type motion as if you are trying to toss the punch over head. That circular motion keeps the force of the punch from going into your arm making it easier to lift. Most people lift as if they are trying to put the punch on top of a shelf which limits the range of motion as the shoulder fails.

In your kung fu. Note that Boxing is not necessarily your kung fu.

 

[Flying Crane]

They probably should do Bartitsu, since that's what they're doing.

Those "long punches" are part and parcel of pre-Marques boxing. This has only been pointed out half a dozen times or so.

It's a drill. The "mechanics" are fine.

Mule Muffins.

Mmmmm.......mule muffins......oh wait, is that not what I think it is?

 

[lklawson]

Mmmmm.......mule muffins......oh wait, is that not what I think it is?

It's a quote from Sherman T. Potter.

Yes, I'm old, and a cranky bastage...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's a quote from Sherman T. Potter.

Yes, I'm old, and a cranky bastage...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Your alternative answer, of course, would have been "horsefeathers".

 

[JowGaWolf]

So you're big contribution is that a double-time counter is easier to block, and therefore "fails" more often, than a single-time counter?

Nope. My statement are in reference to that one technique that I keep referring to. There are times where a block and then punch is the only way a technique will work, it's just that the technique being used isn't one of those techniques.

In your kung fu. Note that Boxing is not necessarily your kung fu

Rising blocks are rising blocks no matter what system is doing it. It will still have the same failure points when done incorrectly. It will still have the same limitations. The only difference is the depth of understanding that a system may have in comparison to what another system may have. A system that does this type of block all the time will have a better understanding of the limitations and the points of failure than a system that doesn't use the blocks much. I look outside of my system for certain things because sometimes a different system may have a more detailed understanding of the body mechanics of a similar technique that I need to do in my system.

You keep thinking fighting system vs fighting system. Everything I've said for far has been based on the mechanics of what was trying to be done. I even pointed out in his own video of when the technique failed and why it failed. Boxing doesn't have to be Kung Fu if the body mechanic challenges are the same. if he's trying to lift a punch with the arm in front then his techniques will have to address the same challenges that other systems face when lifting a punch with the arm in front.

His natural development in Bartitsu for that specific technique is going to lead him to the same challenges and same solutions, but there is not need to reinvent the technique or search for answers the hard way when detailed solutions are already there to help him understand what he's trying to do with that technique.

 

[lklawson]

Everything I've said for far has been based on the mechanics of what was trying to be done.

Based on your belief of how the mechanics are "supposed to work" which, apparently, is informed by your kung fu.

So yeah, it sure as heck does seem to be that the crux of your (current) argument is, "he's doing it wrong for kung fu." Which is the very definition of a style-v-style argument.

Heck, your very first comment about it was that they "should just do kung fu" since, they were doing the "long fist' stuff "wrong."

 

[JowGaWolf]

Heck, your very first comment about it was that they "should just do kung fu" since, they were doing the "long fist' stuff "wrong."

I said this because if you have no reference of how to do a long punch like so that the structure is correct then you need to find a system that does these type punches all the time. When you are training long fist all the time then you will have a better understanding of where the mechanics are successful and when they will fail. Even if they didn't want to actually take kung fu they could ask and have discussions with someone who does a lot of long fist. Conversations like "How do you do this type of technique in your system?" "Why don't you do it like this?" Can be very insightful as they may be aware of some issues that you aren't aware of. Not because it's Kung Fu, but because they are always doing long fist. If there anything that they should have an understanding of is the mechanics behind a long fist punch.

How long have you been doing long fist techniques? Do you use punching techniques in sparring similar to what the Bartitsu guy showed? Do you do rising blocks when you spar? Do you know at which points the technique fails? Do you know what makes the technique weak and where it stays strong? Can you see when the technique fails in the video and understand why the mechanics that would make the long punch strong and which mechanics will make the technique weak?

For example, when I see the picture to the left I think of the technique the guy is showing on the right But that's only if picture on the left is punching. From there, it becomes an issue of mechanics. Can I effectively throw a punch like the picture in the left, what mechanics feel natural and which mechanics feel in efficient. I look at it from different perspectives such as. what type of punch is the hand blocking? Is it a jab or a circular swing? I look at the legs and try to determine the movement? Is this guy about to lung in with a punch? or his does his body position represent him preparing to move back.? Is the other guy with the block advancing or retreating? I take all of this into consideration before I decide that what I see in a photo is a similar technique. But with a video, things like this are easier to determine because you have more information about what is going on and what mechanics are needed to actually do the technique.

 

[lklawson]

I said this because if you have no reference of how to do a long punch like so that the structure is correct

It was your assumption that they had "no reference for how to do a long punch like that so that the structure is" <ahem> "'correct'." You were, well, not correct.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It was your assumption that they had "no reference for how to do a long punch like that so that the structure is" <ahem> "'correct'." You were, well, not correct.

Do you practice long fist? Do you fight using long fist techniques?

 

[Juany118]

Your alternative answer, of course, would have been "horsefeathers".

Or "horse hockey" and "pigeon pellets" lol

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

Do you practice long fist? Do you fight using long fist techniques?

Ok. so we have two different interpretations of a technique. Why is yours correct?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ok. so we have two different interpretations of a technique. Why is yours correct?

To be honest my best answer to this question is to try to actually use the techniques shown in the Bartitsu. Or have someone else try to use it.

We can make an assumption that it's an effective technique because someone decided that it was important enough to draw it down for record keeping. So when doing this technique in free sparring, it should be effective and it should feel strong. If the person does the technique and it feels weak and useless, then that means there is something off with the mechanics. I think by trying to use these techniques in free sparring will shed better light on what I'm saying.
By trying these techniques in free sparring a person will see first hand the mechanics that are required to make those long fist techniques efficient. The person will find out really quick what doesn't work. They will also recognize what doesn't work when they see it.

The confidence and the certainty that I have is from me using long fist techniques in free sparring and getting hit in the face when I got the long fist technique wrong. So when I saw the guy demo the long fist technique, the first thing that came to my mind was my own failures that I had while learning long fist. There were things that worked well and things that didn't. The things that I got wrong I paid with a punch to my face, or ribs.

 

[lklawson]

Do you practice long fist? Do you fight using long fist techniques?

What does that have to do with Classic Boxing? Are you saying that Kung Fu Long Fist swiped their striking from London Prize Ring era Boxing?

Interesting theory. I like it. But it's sure to piss off Kung Fu guys.

 

[lklawson]

To be honest my best answer to this question is to try to actually use the techniques shown in the Bartitsu. Or have someone else try to use it.

We can make an assumption that it's an effective technique because someone decided that it was important enough to draw it down for record keeping. So when doing this technique in free sparring, it should be effective and it should feel strong. If the person does the technique and it feels weak and useless, then that means there is something off with the mechanics. I think by trying to use these techniques in free sparring will shed better light on what I'm saying.
By trying these techniques in free sparring a person will see first hand the mechanics that are required to make those long fist techniques efficient. The person will find out really quick what doesn't work. They will also recognize what doesn't work when they see it.

The confidence and the certainty that I have is from me using long fist techniques in free sparring and getting hit in the face when I got the long fist technique wrong. So when I saw the guy demo the long fist technique, the first thing that came to my mind was my own failures that I had while learning long fist. There were things that worked well and things that didn't. The things that I got wrong I paid with a punch to my face, or ribs.

Gads! How many times must it be written? What you saw was a DRILL; a single part of a progression, a spectrum, in training and using the techniques.

You are so stuck on "being right" that you seem to be deliberately ignoring this point.

How 'bout you try this? Boxing is NOT Kung Fu and London Prize Ring era Boxing is NOT YOUR long-fist Kung Fu. Give that a go, m'kay?