Gloves vs Fist. Which one wins for you

[Juany118]

@gpseymour found a better video that illustrates the general concept of "softening up" to execute some takedowns in FMA. Not the one I described exactly but the principles are the same.

I do everything on God's green earth to avoid inside entries, but the tools are there if ya need em. As you can see, elbows and knees (which I haven't mentioned yet) are a big part of it, as is the head/neck control you speak of on the last series shown.

 

[drop bear]

just came across this. bobby gunn goes for more rotation in a punch. Not less.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think you misunderstood me. I am saying the tall people are easier to throw than the shorter people are.

It has to with getting your hips lower than theirs for the hip throw.

The answer is still the same. You can't throw small people the same way you throw tall people. You have to use the appropriate technique for throwing small people.

 

[JowGaWolf]

just came across this. bobby gunn goes for more rotation in a punch. Not less.

Pretty much lines up with punching concepts found in Traditional Martial arts. Most people who hit without gloves strike with the flat part of the fist and not the actual knuckle. Hitting with the actual knuckle is brutal because that force isn't being displaced across the fingers. When I say brutal I mean brutal on the knuckle.

 

[drop bear]

Ah. The elbow strike I'm mostly thinking about is upward. It's that close, and would be used mostly when we've both come in (so momentum holds them from backing up as quickly as in other circumstances). Beyond that distance, unless I'm restraining their head/neck, I'm not within what I'd consider elbow distance. So, as you said, not a lot of opportunities for it, since it's such short range. It makes a nice complement to the way we move, though.

Yeah. If you can set it up. It does maim people.

It is just a different conversation than i get in close and use elbows.

 

[drop bear]

Pretty much lines up with punching concepts found in Traditional Martial arts. Most people who hit without gloves strike with the flat part of the fist and not the actual knuckle. Hitting with the actual knuckle is brutal because that force isn't being displaced across the fingers. When I say brutal I mean brutal on the knuckle.

I don't know many people who hit with the flat fist.

I mean i am sure someone does it. But the knuckles either first two or last too are more common.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@gpseymour found a better video that illustrates the general concept of "softening up" to execute some takedowns in FMA. Not the one I described exactly but the principles are the same.

I do everything on God's green earth to avoid inside entries, but the tools are there if ya need em. As you can see, elbows and knees (which I haven't mentioned yet) are a big part of it, as is the head/neck control you speak of on the last series shown.

That's pretty much what I was referring to as "beating your way through". We'd likely use a shorter set of strikes, as we'd be upsetting their balance at the hip at the same time if we can, but the principle is the same.

Interestingly, I saw the beginnings of one of our more obscure throws in there at 1:17. I've not seen it in other styles before (I assume it's in Daito-ryu, but haven't seen it in any videos of that style, either). We'd normally continue that as a projection throw, rather than a takedown, but the start is the same. Now I need to get a student to that rank so I can play with it more as a takedown. Danged slow time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know many people who hit with the flat fist.

I mean i am sure someone does it. But the knuckles either first two or last too are more common.

I teach "the first two knuckles" as the principle, but that's not actually the strike. The actual strike (as I do it, as I've always seen it done, even by new students) is the face of those first two fingers, led by the knuckles to the extent they extend beyond the face of the fingers. The knuckles are a focus point, but to actually punch with the knuckles would require bending the wrist.

Thinking that through, we may be saying the same thing. If I punch a convex surface (a face, perhaps), the knuckles will be all that make hard contact unless the surface collapses (hitting a muscle in the chest, perhaps). The face of the fingers will make secondary contact on all but the hardest surfaces. So, if I punch a skull (ow), the knuckles take all that force. If I punch a jaw, some of that will be distributed to the face of the fingers, unless it's a glancing blow.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm 5'9. And for some reason the people who mess with me are always very tall and lanky guys. In sparring and practice it is very hard for me to do any clean throw or tachi waza on a shorter person. Height does matter alot for any hip throw.

If your opponent is shorter than you, you want to crash him down from the top.

 

[lklawson]

Oh yeah. If you cover by grabbing the back of your head and the incoming fist meets the protruding elbow it, ouch. Likewise when blocking a body shot with the forearm but strike the fist with the elbow instead. When the elbow meets the forearm of an incoming haymaker, that's pretty awesome.

Defensive Exercises, Donald Walker, 1840 - from the section "Simpler Method of Boxing"

Defensive Exercises - Donald Walker by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

My hip throws suck. I almosr never get them to work in randori in Judo. Foot sweeps, various sacrifice throws, all functional. Can't do O goshi against a resisting opponent to save my life for two reasons: I'm 6 feet tall so getting low enough is a challenge, and I'm a lefty, so it's easy for a right gripping opponent to block me. Koshi Guruma works for me once in a while since my arm goes over top. Sometimes I get single arm throws to work. My next goal is getting my Tai Otoshi to work.

My worst so far: Hane Goshi (Spring hip). Can't do it at all.

We need to get together. I can show you a "trick" that will really up the ante on your o goshi, tai otoshi, and some related throws. Bob Spraley taught it to me before he passed away. The Cross Buttock illustrated in Fistiana hints at it.

There's a trick to hane goshi as well and a different one for uki goshi.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

I'm not sure I know anyone, at least anyone in a striking Martial Art, other than boxing, who doesn't focus on hitting with the first two knuckles.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not sure I know anyone, at least anyone in a striking Martial Art, other than boxing, who doesn't focus on hitting with the first two knuckles.

The issue of striking with the knuckle is not a system problem it's a practitioner problem. Most martial art systems that I know of will train air punches and tell to focus the hits with the first 2 knuckles or the middle knuckle. But when the punching mitts or punching bags come into play students will wear gloves. This changes how the fist makes an impact on the target and allows students to make mistakes with their punching techniques without consequences. The most common mistakes are probably swiping punches and hitting with the flat of the fist.

Sometimes I have the beginner and intermediate students spar against me without gloves on for the purpose of me knowing if the flat of the fist is landing or if the knuckles are landing.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure I know anyone, at least anyone in a striking Martial Art, other than boxing, who doesn't focus on hitting with the first two knuckles.

The olde school boxing does the last two. you can see it in the diagrams. Some people do the flat.

I am a first two knuckles guy. And in general am a rotating punch guy.

(Although I do throw vertical fists from time to time)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The olde school boxing does the last two. you can see it in the diagrams. Some people do the flat.

I am a first two knuckles guy. And in general am a rotating punch guy.

(Although I do throw vertical fists from time to time)

I was a rotating punch person for years. I found a preference for the vertical fist - it fits my movement and approach to the art. Though, as I explore new ways to apply some of the principles, I find the rotating punch useful in new ways, so in a few years I'll probably be back to using them equally.

 

[drop bear]

I was a rotating punch person for years. I found a preference for the vertical fist - it fits my movement and approach to the art. Though, as I explore new ways to apply some of the principles, I find the rotating punch useful in new ways, so in a few years I'll probably be back to using them equally.

Mma is using them both because of the small gloves. Goes back to trying to nail those behind the ear targets.

A straight punch over rotated (thumb down) has a bit mote range.

This on the other hand I just don't see the advantage.

 

[Juany118]

I was a rotating punch person for years. I found a preference for the vertical fist - it fits my movement and approach to the art. Though, as I explore new ways to apply some of the principles, I find the rotating punch useful in new ways, so in a few years I'll probably be back to using them equally.

Just one thing, a technical point. The old school boxing actually has you aiming with the ring finger and with proper technique you strike with the middle finger through pinky. The photo posted is a little deceiving on that point which is why I linked the detailed description of the Jack Dempsey punch. The arrow is showing the "aim" point, not the actual point of impact.

As explained in the same link because of alignment maximum force would actually be achieved striking with just the pinky BUT since it is the weakest bone in the hand you need to spread the impact out over a wider area.

That punch is also one done as a head shot. The natural angle of the wrist causes the fist to naturally strike in that manner due to the angle of the arm. It is in essence trying to exploit what comes naturally to make it work. A natural consequence of say doing a body blow, due to the angle of the first, is that if you punch straight ahead you will end up striking with the first two fingers instead, unless you change the angle of the wrist of course like some styles do. There are two primary schools on thought on vertical fist body blows I have found. The first does what I just described, another has you "snapping" the wrist so that even on a punch at a lower angle will have the last 2-3 fingers landing. Since the "lower" shots are to soft(er) targets I suppose the risk of injuring the wrist isn't that high when "snapping" but that method still makes me a little twitchy because I have skinny wrists

 

[JowGaWolf]

Mma is using them both because of the small gloves. Goes back to trying to nail those behind the ear targets.

A straight punch over rotated (thumb down) has a bit mote range.

This on the other hand I just don't see the advantage.

They probably should do kung fu. Those long punches are similar to long fist kung systems but lack the proper mechanics to keep someone from pulling the person off balance with long punches. The general rule is that those punches don't go above your head height because it opens you up more and puts you at risk.

The block with the thumbs downward works. It's used in Kung Fu and Karate. It's structurally stronger than the blocks that are used in MMA and it's actually more than just a block. It can be used as a soft block which also serves as a "wind-up" for a technique using that same arm or it can be used to guide a strike. The way that they show the application of it in the video is incorrect from a kung fu perspective and a practical fighting perspective. They show it as a 1-2 technique (block then punch) and that is incorrect on multiple levels.

 

[Ironbear24]

The issue of striking with the knuckle is not a system problem it's a practitioner problem. Most martial art systems that I know of will train air punches and tell to focus the hits with the first 2 knuckles or the middle knuckle. But when the punching mitts or punching bags come into play students will wear gloves. This changes how the fist makes an impact on the target and allows students to make mistakes with their punching techniques without consequences. The most common mistakes are probably swiping punches and hitting with the flat of the fist.

Sometimes I have the beginner and intermediate students spar against me without gloves on for the purpose of me knowing if the flat of the fist is landing or if the knuckles are landing.

That's why we prefer to train with no gloves.

 

[Buka]

You couldn't actually hit a person standing like that. Because if you did, come judgement day......