Gloves vs Fist. Which one wins for you

[drop bear]

You couldn't actually hit a person standing like that. Because if you did, come judgement day...

Please.

Jesus would give you a high five himself for giving that guy a slap.

Everybody knows jesus loves ko,s.

 

[Buka]

Please.

Jesus would give you a high five himself for giving that guy a slap.

Everybody knows jesus loves ko,s.

I don't know, bro, you know you’d feel bad later. Kind of like kicking a puppy. A blind one, at that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You couldn't actually hit a person standing like that. Because if you did, come judgement day......

I don't know what that lower arm is doing, Jow Ga has a similar technique that looks like that picture but our lower arm isn't turned like that. In the Jow Ga technique you would be able to strike someone from that position. Right off the top of my head, I can see 6 practical strikes that someone in that position can do. The only thing that is throwing me off is that lower guard. I would have to see what came before this position and what comes after it to really what the purpose of that lower guard if any.

 

[JowGaWolf]

High guard in practical use in Jow Ga
1:17
1:22
1:51
2:17
4:41
4:53

 

[lklawson]

They probably should do kung fu.

They probably should do Bartitsu, since that's what they're doing.

Those long punches are similar to long fist kung systems

Those "long punches" are part and parcel of pre-Marques boxing. This has only been pointed out half a dozen times or so.

but lack the proper mechanics to keep someone from pulling the person off balance with long punches.

It's a drill. The "mechanics" are fine.

The general rule is that those punches don't go above your head height because it opens you up more and puts you at risk.

Mule Muffins.

 

[JowGaWolf]

hey probably should do Bartitsu, since that's what they're doing

It doesn't matter what they are doing if the technique is not done correct. You can not realistically block and then punch in a fight like they are doing. The technique that there are doing of blocking and then punching is should be drilled as one motion and not a one step where it's Block then Punch. It should be Block and Punch where it almost looks simultaneously. You can try this for yourself and you'll see that "Block and Punch" works better than "Block then Punch". Just because they are doing Bartitsu doesn't mean that another martial arts that uses similar techniques can't help them understand their own system better. Kung Fu stress a lot of "1 and 2" and very few "1 then 2" principles.

Mule Muffins.

Understand how to exploit a long fist technique and then you won't think like this

 

[JowGaWolf]

Example of "Block and punch" drill it is drilled this way because it is used this way in a real fight. It is not a one step of Block then punch which is not practical in fighting,

Unfortunately many TKD and Karate schools have drilled one steps for techniques for so long that some instructors don't understand how to correctly apply the technique. Notice that this is a block then strike perspective which will get you knock out. If you practice and drill like this then the technique will fail you in a real fight. With the exception that your opponent is slower than you.

 

[Buka]

You couldn't actually hit a person standing like that. Because if you did, come judgement day......

Actually, that stance could have some practical application.

Say he was standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona, and had "Los Angeles, 522 miles" written on his upper arm, and "Dallas, 908 miles" written on his lower.

Could get a job with the Chamber of Commerce. Might even meet a gal with a flat-bed Ford.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It doesn't matter what they are doing if the technique is not done correct. You can not realistically block and then punch in a fight like they are doing. The technique that there are doing of blocking and then punching is should be drilled as one motion and not a one step where it's Block then Punch. It should be Block and Punch where it almost looks simultaneously. You can try this for yourself and you'll see that "Block and Punch" works better than "Block then Punch". Just because they are doing Bartitsu doesn't mean that another martial arts that uses similar techniques can't help them understand their own system better. Kung Fu stress a lot of "1 and 2" and very few "1 then 2" principles.

Understand how to exploit a long fist technique and then you won't think like this

Most places I've seen (regardless of art) initially teach (and drill) as a block, then punch. This is easier for the new student to learn. Later, it's normally changed (either in a progression of the same drill, or in new drills) into a simultaneous movement.

 

[Juany118]

Most places I've seen (regardless of art) initially teach (and drill) as a block, then punch. This is easier for the new student to learn. Later, it's normally changed (either in a progression of the same drill, or in new drills) into a simultaneous movement.

Beat me to it. That is obviously a very basic drill. Those drills are usually about teaching proper structure not actual application. Everything else I have seen about Bartitsu is very much and simultaneous attack and defense just as the main source arts for the unarmed follow. (Jujutsu, Judo, Pugilism and Savate.) It would be odd in the extreme to have something so basic to the source arts not in the Mixed art imo.

 

[lklawson]

It doesn't matter what they are doing if the technique is not done correct.

However, it is correct. It may not be "correct" for your understanding of whatever kung fu system you're applying but it is exactly as described in dozens of boxing manuals and old school drawings & photos.

You can not realistically block and then punch in a fight like they are doing.

Sure you can; under the right circumstances ...as with anything else.

The technique that there are doing of blocking and then punching is should be drilled as one motion and not a one step where it's Block then Punch. It should be Block and Punch where it almost looks simultaneously.

You can do it that way too. But it's not a requirement.







A ton more here: Album: Kirk

You can try this for yourself and you'll see that "Block and Punch" works better than "Block then Punch".

What makes you think that I haven't tried all this stuff out?

Just because they are doing Bartitsu doesn't mean that another martial arts that uses similar techniques can't help them understand their own system better.

Boxers have been doing it quite successfully for centuries. Proof above.

Kung Fu stress a lot of "1 and 2" and very few "1 then 2" principles.

First, IT'S A DRILL. Did you miss that the first time I wrote it? Second, as show, it is precisely in line with beginning lessons starting with Mendoza and going on up.

Understand how to exploit a long fist technique and then you won't think like this

All hail Kung Fu!

 

[lklawson]

Beat me to it. That is obviously a very basic drill. Those drills are usually about teaching proper structure not actual application. Everything else I have seen about Bartitsu is very much and simultaneous attack and defense just as the main source arts for the unarmed follow. (Jujutsu, Judo, Pugilism and Savate.) It would be odd in the extreme to have something so basic to the source arts not in the Mixed art imo.

He ignored me when I wrote that it was a drill (I even bold faced it).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most places I've seen (regardless of art) initially teach (and drill) as a block, then punch. This is easier for the new student to learn. Later, it's normally changed (either in a progression of the same drill, or in new drills) into a simultaneous movement.

Most schools don't reach the point where it's turn into a simultaneous movement which is why we see advanced students and some instructors still practice it as a Block then a Punch and this becomes evident when they start talking about the application of the technique, where they describe it as a block then a punch.

There are 2 things that I do to help students with difficult move
Force them to do the technique slowly
To help students learn the technique by forcing them to go slow. Most average students are able to do this technique slowly but have trouble doing the technique fast. This happens because the brain hasn't mapped out this movement yet. If the student goes slow then learning the technique will be easy. If they try to go too fast then they will become frustrated. When I see students try to do new techniques at a fast speed, I will force them to slow down so that their brains can learn the new motion. The difficulty that people have with things like this is due to the brain never or rarely moving the body in this manner.


If they have problems with the actual movement, then I explain the technique similar to a movement that they already know how to do.
Most people can do this without any problem. If they put their arm on top of their head from the side then, I tell them that they have to do it with arm moving upward in front of the face.

So I will ask them to position their arm like this and reach forward at the same time. If they are able to do that much then I'll explain the movement as being similar, but not exactly. I begin to explain the differences such as the turning the hand and closing the fist when reaching instead of keeping the hand open. Those are 2 minor changes that are usually easy for students to make. From there I go straight into application of the technique so that they will have an accurate visual of what they are doing and that they will have an idea of the structure they will need. I throw a really slow punch to their face and ask them to do the same movement that they just showed me (lifting arm reaching out at the same time). I drill this technique over and over until they can visualize a slow punch coming and the block and punch happening at the same time. I have them practice at a slow pace just to start to make it easier for the brain to learn the movements and learning how to syncing the movement. Once they get master that level, I make additional corrections, slowly turning it into a complex martial art technique. The entire learning process usually takes about 10 classes. By the 10th class the only thing that they need to do is to continue to increase the speed, refine the technique so that it's functional in structure and learn how to drive power into the technique.

 

[drop bear]

If you are going to block then punch off two beats. Block then punch off the same arm.

If you are going to do it off one beat. You have to either be really fast or know that punch is coming. In fisty fighting this is really quite hard.

The biggest issue with blocking and punching simultaneously is if the other guy uses head movement then you are a lot less likley to hit anything with that shot. And then you are open for his other hand.

If the other guy fakes then you have just shot both arms away from your head and are likley open to the other hand.

And if the other guy throws combinations you will not be able to keep up with them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Those drills are usually about teaching proper structure not actual application.

With certain techniques, the 1-step version will not have the same structure that technique has when done as a simultaneous movement. So in reality the student wouldn't be learning the structure that's needed for application, they will be learning the structure that's needed for 1 step.

However, it is correct. It may not be "correct" for your understanding of whatever kung fu system you're applying but it is exactly as described in dozens of boxing manuals and old school drawings & photos.

Boxers have been doing it quite successfully for centuries. Proof above

I never said they haven't, The only person I referred to was the guy in the Bartitsu video who did the technique as a block and then punch. The only groups that I stalked about not doing were Taekwondo and Karate schools who do 1 step drills and never teach to do the techniques as a block and punch. I know for a fact that there are Taekwondo and Karate schools that do teach it as a block and punch and those schools are the exception to my comments.

First, IT'S A DRILL. Did you miss that the first time I wrote it? Second, as show, it is precisely in line with beginning lessons starting with Mendoza and going on up.

I understand that it's a drill. What I also understand is that the person doing the drill did not look like a beginner. BASICS is not the same as BEGINNER. People practice basics regardless of their skill level. Basics are the foundation.

Here's a video of him sparring and doing the 1 step application as he showed in his previous video. You will see that the technique fails when done as a 1 then 2. Had he sent the punch at the same time then he would have made contact without the need to muscle his opponents arm the way he did. The upward movement of the "block" (actually a redirect) arm was also off. If that arm does not go up ward then all that will happen is the grind that you'll also see. See the 0:59 mark. .

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you are going to do it off one beat. You have to either be really fast or know that punch is coming. In fisty fighting this is really quite hard.

Yes that's true. That's where baiting and tell-tale signs. It's better to encourage an attack that you want than to try to guess what's coming.

 

[Juany118]

With certain techniques, the 1-step version will not have the same structure that technique has when done as a simultaneous movement. So in reality the student wouldn't be learning the structure that's needed for application, they will be learning the structure that's needed for 1 step.

For some techniques you are correct, but the techniques applicable to the largely upright structure of Victorian Pugilism tend to work in a 1 step training fashion. Usually, if I understand what you are describing correctly, what you speak of happens with arts where the body supporting the arms has more movement allowed.

As for the video there was also some simultaneous action in it. For the :59 part it looks like that, for the most part, there was exaggerated hesitation because the glove got hung up on the defending arm which was in a suboptimal position to start with.

One other thing you need to know and @lklawson can correct me if I am wrong. Bartitsu is basically in a process of rediscovery. We have articles written at the time, photographs etc but the "Bartitsu Club" of London closed in the early 20th century and while there were instructors for the individual arts at the Club who went to teach elsewhere the guy who put it all together into Bartitsu stopped publically teaching and then obviously died at some point. So what @lklawson is speaking of can be absolutely true for the people refining it in the US and then you can go to Germany and have some differences.

 

[JowGaWolf]

there was exaggerated hesitation because the glove got hung up on the defending arm which was in a suboptimal position to start with.

In reference to the technique at 0:59. What you saw are a number of body mechanics not connecting. Most people think that the arm is lifting the punch (where the fist stays horizontal), but in reality the arm is rising in a circular motion (where the thumb points down). This circular motion creates the structure necessary to redirect it over the head. The turning of the forearm as you are doing the block will provide a stronger structure than not turning the forearm. If I keep my forearm straight with my fist horizontal to the ground (with thumb pointing horizonta towards me) then my structure will fail as it causes more stress to be put on the arm. If you slow the video down and pause it, you can actually see that thumb is horizontal and eventually points to the ceiling when it should be turning vertical with the thumb pointing towards the ground. If you hold your hand in that position and ask someone to push forward on your forearm towards you, then you should be able to feel the stress on your elbow or shoulder. However, if you put your arm in that same position and turn your thumb towards your face then your arm is able tor resist more pressure. In order to he the arm higher you will need to do a circular type motion as if you are trying to toss the punch over head. That circular motion keeps the force of the punch from going into your arm making it easier to lift. Most people lift as if they are trying to put the punch on top of a shelf which limits the range of motion as the shoulder fails.

Bartitsu is basically in a process of rediscovery.

This is what I understand as well based on the little that I actually read and a documentary about it. From what it looks like they are doing what HEMA did which is to try to decode practical fighting techniques from limited resources. HEMA used other martial arts to help them make sense of the techniques they were rediscovering. We understand that fighting systems often have influences from other fighting systems. If you can find that influence then you can plug in gaps to techniques that aren't clear because of missing details. I think you will like the video below as he talks about the evolution of the rising block.

 

[Juany118]

In reference to the technique at 0:59. What you saw are a number of body mechanics not connecting. Most people think that the arm is lifting the punch (where the fist stays horizontal), but in reality the arm is rising in a circular motion (where the thumb points down). This circular motion creates the structure necessary to redirect it over the head. The turning of the forearm as you are doing the block will provide a stronger structure than not turning the forearm. If I keep my forearm straight with my fist horizontal to the ground (with thumb pointing horizonta towards me) then my structure will fail as it causes more stress to be put on the arm. If you slow the video down and pause it, you can actually see that thumb is horizontal and eventually points to the ceiling when it should be turning vertical with the thumb pointing towards the ground. If you hold your hand in that position and ask someone to push forward on your forearm towards you, then you should be able to feel the stress on your elbow or shoulder. However, if you put your arm in that same position and turn your thumb towards your face then your arm is able tor resist more pressure. In order to he the arm higher you will need to do a circular type motion as if you are trying to toss the punch over head. That circular motion keeps the force of the punch from going into your arm making it easier to lift. Most people lift as if they are trying to put the punch on top of a shelf which limits the range of motion as the shoulder fails.

This is what I understand as well based on the little that I actually read and a documentary about it. From what it looks like they are doing what HEMA did which is to try to decode practical fighting techniques from limited resources. HEMA used other martial arts to help them make sense of the techniques they were rediscovering. We understand that fighting systems often have influences from other fighting systems. If you can find that influence then you can plug in gaps to techniques that aren't clear because of missing details. I think you will like the video below as he talks about the evolution of the rising block.

The only thing I would say regarding the above it that you may be projecting a little bit. Wing Chun has bong sau and bil sau. Either can be used to deflect a strike to the head but it has nothing to do with a circular action. The angle of the forearm creates to deflection. Not pretty but the quickest photo I could find..

Basically the elbow is at ~ 130 degrees and the angle of the arm (with appropriate energy) causes the strike to rise and miss, similar to parrying in sword play. The shallower the angle the greater chance of a collapse of the supporting structure.

Now I will admit, maybe I may also be projecting my WC training onto Bartitsu and Victorian Pugilism but there are at least similarities that invite it. Out of the gate we have

Vs

WC is all about linear angles to deflect vs rotation and so maybe that's why I relate? So I don't look at such a block as something that uses the upward motion of the arm to deflect but rather the angles of the structure with simple linear energy behind it to accomplish the same goal.

 

[Kickboxer101]

They probably should do kung fu. Those long punches are similar to long fist kung systems but lack the proper mechanics to keep someone from pulling the person off balance with long punches. The general rule is that those punches don't go above your head height because it opens you up more and puts you at risk.

The block with the thumbs downward works. It's used in Kung Fu and Karate. It's structurally stronger than the blocks that are used in MMA and it's actually more than just a block. It can be used as a soft block which also serves as a "wind-up" for a technique using that same arm or it can be used to guide a strike. The way that they show the application of it in the video is incorrect from a kung fu perspective and a practical fighting perspective. They show it as a 1-2 technique (block then punch) and that is incorrect on multiple levels.

The upward block is a good block but in one picture the guy is blocking a staff. You should never block a weapon with your arm, if someone's attacking with a weapon then you evade and block the arm not the weapon.