Gen2Arnis

[Dan Anderson]

"Someone" might...but most people won't achieve his level of skill regardless of the training they receive. He was a package of experiences, remember, not just a gifted athlete with good reflexes and speed. He trained with people long dead, fought some talented people, trained in ways we've been told about but would have a hard time experiencing, and survived some adventures that we can only dream about...or have nightmares about. One can't replicate those experiences...not even if we had a clone of Remy as a student.

Don't get me wrong...eventually somebody in Modern Arnis will come along and achieve some pretty remarkable skills. I submit that will be because of a lot of factors, not necessarily because somebody taught them well. But they won't be Remy Presas.

Yes, a package of experiences. That is part and parcel of RP. To be another Remy Presas? That isn't my goal and I don't think anyone wants to be exactly that.

Another Remy? Dream on.

Again, I don't know who wants to be another Remy. To be as good as Remy isn't just a dream but I believe it could be done. Otherwise, why train?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[stickarts]

What if Remy never thought he could reach the skill level of his instructors? This thinking is self limiting. I don't think that anyone is saying that there will be another Remy. He was a gifted, unique person. But his skill level is worth striving for whether it is attained or not.

 

[bloodwood]

I think we got a little off track here.

So back to the original discussion, are we looking for deeper understanding and hidden treasures in Modern Arnis as the Professor gave us, or are we looking to make it our own in a sense that it becomes something of an off shoot of the original and thus something else?

On the latter I think if you alter it enough you should call it by another name and not Modern Arnis. When Professor said "make it your own" I don't think he meant for us to start new systems rather make Modern Arnis a part of ourselves and take the parts of it that suited our particular body styles, attributes and talents and to adapt and use Modern Arnis to fit us as individuals.

bloodwood :asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

My intention is to break it down in such a manner so that anyone can reach his skill.

His stuff was road tested.

To be another Remy Presas? That isn't my goal and I don't think anyone wants to be exactly that.

To be as good as Remy isn't just a dream but I believe it could be done.

When I was talking about "being another Remy Presas" I was talking about skill, which is the issue at hand. I think that was understood.

But skill is relative. Remy's talents were unique to him. This isn't any silly idolatry on my part, please note.

I suspect I'm using a different yardstick for measuring skill than you are.

Can you get as good at Tapi Tapi as he was with the left hand? Possibly. Will you have his strength? His natural speed and reflexes? His fighting intensity? His willingness to fight strong men with bad intentions with a sharpened length of Bahi? And will you do it as well? Will you "road test" it as he did? Will you be able to do all of these things? Likely not.

Each of us should train to be the best we can be, given our bodies natural gifts and combining that with good training and whatever experiences we can rack up on the way. But none of those experiences will take place on harsh proving grounds in the Phillipines forty plus years ago.



Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Dan Anderson]

Can you get as good at Tapi Tapi as he was with the left hand? Possibly. Will you have his strength? His natural speed and reflexes? His fighting intensity? His willingness to fight strong men with bad intentions with a sharpened length of Bahi? And will you do it as well? Will you "road test" it as he did? Will you be able to do all of these things? Likely not.

Each of us should train to be the best we can be, given our bodies natural gifts and combining that with good training and whatever experiences we can rack up on the way. But none of those experiences will take place on harsh proving grounds in the Phillipines forty plus years ago. posted by Steve Scott

Steve,
Will I? I agree, likely not. I am not willing to sacrifice everything in my life to replicate what Remy Presas did. If I did, who knows?Is the skill level attainable? Absolutely! That is my point.

Regarding the harsh proving grounds, I am with you 100%.

So back to the original discussion, are we looking for deeper understanding and hidden treasures in Modern Arnis as the Professor gave us, or are we looking to make it our own in a sense that it becomes something of an off shoot of the original and thus something else?

On the latter I think if you alter it enough you should call it by another name and not Modern Arnis. When Professor said "make it your own" I don't think he meant for us to start new systems rather make Modern Arnis a part of ourselves and take the parts of it that suited our particular body styles, attributes and talents and to adapt and use Modern Arnis to fit us as individuals. posted by Bloodwood

Blood,
All I can go by on that one is he gave me permission to do what I have done as he did with Tim's formation of the Can-Am chapter of IMAF, now known as WMAA. Agreement and opposition have been stated elsewhere.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by bloodwood
I think we got a little off track here.

So back to the original discussion, are we looking for deeper understanding and hidden treasures in Modern Arnis as the Professor gave us, or are we looking to make it our own in a sense that it becomes something of an off shoot of the original and thus something else?

On the latter I think if you alter it enough you should call it by another name and not Modern Arnis. When Professor said "make it your own" I don't think he meant for us to start new systems rather make Modern Arnis a part of ourselves and take the parts of it that suited our particular body styles, attributes and talents and to adapt and use Modern Arnis to fit us as individuals.

bloodwood :asian:

I'd say keep it the way it is. By doing this, you'll carry on the art as he taught it.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
When I was talking about "being another Remy Presas" I was talking about skill, which is the issue at hand. I think that was understood.

But skill is relative. Remy's talents were unique to him. This isn't any silly idolatry on my part, please note.

I suspect I'm using a different yardstick for measuring skill than you are.

Can you get as good at Tapi Tapi as he was with the left hand? Possibly. Will you have his strength? His natural speed and reflexes? His fighting intensity? His willingness to fight strong men with bad intentions with a sharpened length of Bahi? And will you do it as well? Will you "road test" it as he did? Will you be able to do all of these things? Likely not.

Each of us should train to be the best we can be, given our bodies natural gifts and combining that with good training and whatever experiences we can rack up on the way. But none of those experiences will take place on harsh proving grounds in the Phillipines forty plus years ago.



Regards,

Steve Scott

No matter who you talk about, everybody is their own unique self. There was only 1 Bruce Lee, and no matter how hard anyone tries, I doubt anyone will be able to move like him. Will someone ever be as flexible and smooth on the ground as Rickson Gracie? Probably not. I do think though, that the ones that were side by side with the Prof., following him everywhere he went, its those people that would probably be able to show his skill the best. Like I said in a previous post. I have only seen the Prof. on a few occasions. While I was at the camp, I had an entire week to watch the people who were right there training with him all the time, and I was able to see little bits and pieces of the Prof. in all of them.

Mike

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I'd say keep it the way it is. By doing this, you'll carry on the art as he taught it.

Why can't we continue to evolve it as he evolved it?

He encouraged innovation and creativity. People would approach him with things they'd come up with, and he'd say, "Oh WOW! That is a good idea!"

We should stop that now that he's gone?

We've seen this argument elsewhere with other systems. While there is nothing wrong with attempting to archive a set of techniques or a methodology for historical purposes, stopping the growth of that art with the death of its founder isn't useful.

I'd also suggest that "keeping it the way it is [was]" is going to be impossible. Each of us will, inspite of our best efforts, modify what he showed us to fit ourselves, our students, our situation in life. Each of us colored Modern Arnis with our original styles. The Kenpo folks did the Anyos with a Kenpo-ish style of movement. The Tae Kwon Do guys did the forms more the way a Korean stylist would. Remy never tried to change that. He understood the process and he understood individuality.

When teaching our own students, many of us created our own curriculum and ordered the material the way we thought best. We broke it down in a way our students could understand it. We added our own analogies, we tweaked the drills a bit, we played with concepts and experimented. He'd see that, and again, with great drama, say "Oh WOW! That is a good idea!"

There are traditionalists out there who claim to be teaching their arts EXACTLY the way it has been handed down for generations and hundreds of years. This is unverifiable and highly unlikely. Arts evolve, no matter how hard we try to lock them into concrete. If they don't, they cease to become arts.

Art, whether it is martial or not, is a form of self expression and a reflection of contemporary culture. It is a process of creativity. and change. The term "Modern" suggests that the art be kept up to date.

So back to the original discussion, are we looking for deeper understanding and hidden treasures in Modern Arnis as the Professor gave us, or are we looking to make it our own in a sense that it becomes something of an off shoot of the original and thus something else?

You search for those meanings and treasures with your own preconceptions and experiences in place, and they influence your illumination.

At that point the art has in fact become something else...your art. Not mine, not anyone else's...yours. It has changed and evolved.

A progressive martial art, founded by a progressive martial artist, needs to move forward.

Regards,

Steve Scott

P.S.

Dan...you contradicted yourself. You said earlier you were going to break it down so ANYBODY could be as skillful as Remy. Later you suggested that if you put your life on hold and immersed yourself in the crucible of his experiences (an impossibility) THEN you'd be able to attain his level. Which is it?

You didn't make your point. You confounded it.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Why can't we continue to evolve it as he evolved it?

He encouraged innovation and creativity. People would approach him with things they'd come up with, and he'd say, "Oh WOW! That is a good idea!"

We should stop that now that he's gone?

You're correct. I'm sure with his working with Wally Jay, and George Dillman, he added some of their ideas and concepts. I have, especially on the Kenpo threads, talked about adding things in such as grappling, which it lacks, to make that art better. Regarding Arnis. Sure, go ahead and make a change if you feel that it is something that is going to benefit the art. He has 6 people who are in charge of the IMAF Inc. If something is going to be added, then it should be mutually agreed upon by all of those members. As you know, at one time there were 7 members, but one left. I wonder why that was?

Mike

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Sure, go ahead and make a change if you feel that it is something that is going to benefit the art. He has 6 people who are in charge of the IMAF Inc. If something is going to be added, then it should be mutually agreed upon by all of those members.

Mike,

If any organization wants to add to their base line curriculum in this fashion, I see nothing wrong with that. They can effect a global change in this way and provide a general direction for the training of its members. This entails risk, as some members will find the decisions unappealing and will leave. This is normal and can't be avoided.

But we can not manage artistic expression through committees.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
P.S.

Dan...you contradicted yourself. You said earlier you were going to break it down so ANYBODY could be as skillful as Remy. Later you suggested that if you put your life on hold and immersed yourself in the crucible of his experiences (an impossibility) THEN you'd be able to attain his level. Which is it?

You didn't make your point. You confounded it.

No contradiction at all. Re-read the post. If you knew RP, you then know he ran away from home, studied balintawak and then travelled all over to learn/fight. Began Modern Arnis, left the Philippines, his wife and children to spread the art. He gave up everything in his life to become what he had become.

What I have done, in my estimation, is break down the technical elements which make up the skills of Modern Arnis. Following those elements and using them as a checklist, I or anyone can become as skilled as Remy Presas was.

For me, here is the rub - I am nearly 51 years old, have a family to support and have bills to pay and have a church life that is very important to me. Those, and not my skills at Modern Arnis, are my priorities. I am not willing to dump my wife and family, turn my back on my obligations and split off from my interactions with my church in order to do the travelling and intense training in order to attain the skill that RP possessed. Remy Presas WAS willing.

It is not that important to me. I was one of his senior students, one of a handful who he thought were the cream of the crop. Why? Because I applied myself and discerned the principles HE operated on and then applied them to my training. What I am commenting on is, "Is it possible?"

Absolutely! If it wasn't, HE wouldn't have become that skilled.

Is the point I am making now clear?
Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[bloodwood]

When I wrote that, I had no one in mind, it was more directed at the masses. Considering the state of Modern Arnis, you as well as Tim had every right to do what you did. I have no question of your loyalty to professor.
Rock on Dano!

bloodwood

 

[Dan Anderson]

Blood,

Received loud and clear. Party on, Blood.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
No contradiction at all. Re-read the post. If you knew RP, you then know he ran away from home, studied balintawak and then travelled all over to learn/fight. Began Modern Arnis, left the Philippines, his wife and children to spread the art. He gave up everything in his life to become what he had become.

What I have done, in my estimation, is break down the technical elements which make up the skills of Modern Arnis. Following those elements and using them as a checklist, I or anyone can become as skilled as Remy Presas was.

For me, here is the rub - I am nearly 51 years old, have a family to support and have bills to pay and have a church life that is very important to me. Those, and not my skills at Modern Arnis, are my priorities. I am not willing to dump my wife and family, turn my back on my obligations and split off from my interactions with my church in order to do the travelling and intense training in order to attain the skill that RP possessed. Remy Presas WAS willing.

It is not that important to me. I was one of his senior students, one of a handful who he thought were the cream of the crop. Why? Because I applied myself and discerned the principles HE operated on and then applied them to my training. What I am commenting on is, "Is it possible?"

Absolutely! If it wasn't, HE wouldn't have become that skilled.

Is the point I am making now clear?
Yours,
Dan Anderson

Exactly! This is why I said good luck. I think we COULD replicate his skill level, BUT is anyone able to make the commitment?
:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Renegade
Exactly! This is why I said good luck. I think we COULD replicate his skill level, BUT is anyone able to make the commitment?
:asian:

Let's see... If we could turn back the clock and leave home at 14 years old...

Yours,
Moi

 

[stickarts]

Dan,
I can fully relate to your priorities. It is the same for me.
As important as martial arts is to me, my family comes first. this may keep me from maximizing my martial arts, but i have no regrets about that!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Let's see... If we could turn back the clock and leave home at 14 years old...

Yours,
Moi

So, would it count always being picked on and in one fight or another since elementary school?

Learned a fair fight was four of them and one of me, since I learned that they would not come in less numbers. I bounced and did security work and had lots bad stuff happen to me, including my wife leaving . And to top it off my initials are RP also.

Now only to figure out which end of this stick thingy to grab

The skill level is possible in my mind. The personality, no way no how. One of a kind . It all comes down to dedication. There are no superior Martial Arts only superior practitioners of any given art.

With Respect (* And a litte humor up front *)
:asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

No contradiction at all. Re-read the post.

I not only re-read the post(s), I included them in my own. Now that you've clarified it, it makes more sense. But at first, you left little room to read between the lines. You made it sound like any kid that walked in the front door could end up at his level by merely breaking down principles for them (you did use the absolute "anyone") ...and that isn't likely to happen for the reasons I listed and you later outlined. There are too many other factors contributing to that level of mastery.

left the Philippines, his wife and children to spread the art.

Remy told me over breakfast here in Bloomington that he left the Phillipines due to a death threat. That was a good story...his wife got a call from his enemies saying he was going to end up floating in the Pasig river with his hands tied behind his back. Somebody in the government revoked his passport...but he had a back up one. Got out by the skin of his teeth, escorted to the plane by a buddy who was a high ranking officer in the Army.

He told my wife the same story later in the week when she took him out to eat. He came to America, he told her, and that's when he "became pamous."

His words in quotations, verbatim. "Pamous."

We all get fifteen minutes of pame, according to Andy Warhol. Wasn't that a movie, "Pame"? Later a t.v. show...and I believe a musical now.


Regards,

Steve Scott

P.S.

Rich Parsons...RP. Remy Presas...RP. <gasp!>

That is like, TOO spooky. Is there a prophecy to go with this?

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Let's see... If we could turn back the clock and leave home at 14 years old...

Yours,
Moi

Of cousre we all would have. The real question is who will?

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by stickarts
Dan,
I can fully relate to your priorities. It is the same for me.
As important as martial arts is to me, my family comes first. this may keep me from maximizing my martial arts, but i have no regrets about that!

Yes. I can relate to this also. This is something that I have said for quite a while. Its unfortunate though that sometimes people forget about that and put their own needs before others just to benefit themselves.

Mike