Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[oftheherd1]

Ok if you missed primary school. Here are some basic methods to deal with bullies.

Bullying at school helping your child Raising Children Network

A basic tool for being a functional member of society.

Innuendos aside, I am glad you have decided prevention of violence (which many bullies engage in) is better than responding to acts of violence.

Congratulations and thanks!

 

[drop bear]

Innuendos aside, I am glad you have decided prevention of violence (which many bullies engage in) is better than responding to acts of violence.

Congratulations and thanks!

Actually I don't.

I am more in line with the don't tread on me idea when it comes to bullies.

The system works too slow and the damage of bullying can be too great. And bullying works better than the process of preventing it.
So I will certainly consider just punching the bully in the face showing that he should possibly move his attentions somewhere else.

I also understand my actions are wrong and am willing to face the consequences of that.

 

[oftheherd1]

Actually I don't.

I am more in line with the don't tread on me idea when it comes to bullies.

The system works too slow and the damage of bullying can be too great. And bullying works better than the process of preventing it.
So I will certainly consider just punching the bully in the face showing that he should possibly move his attentions somewhere else.

I also understand my actions are wrong and am willing to face the consequences of that.

For you I hope it never comes to that, but I am glad at least you have given it much thought, are willing to accept the consequences of committing an assault.

 

[drop bear]

For you I hope it never comes to that, but I am glad at least you have given it much thought, are willing to accept the consequences of committing an assault.

Life has consequences. But I wont be bullied. I don't like to see others bullied and I am in general favour of people who stand up to them.

 

[drop bear]

For you I hope it never comes to that, but I am glad at least you have given it much thought, are willing to accept the consequences of committing an assault.

As a case study. My sympathy for the kid who started that is zero.

 

[oftheherd1]

Life has consequences. But I wont be bullied. I don't like to see others bullied and I am in general favour of people who stand up to them.

Although I don't care to be bullied, I don't mind frustrating a bully by not sinking to his/her level. Good verbal skills can often do that. Even if I can only avoid fighting, given the society we live in, that is preferable to me over the time I would have to spend with the police and in court. But good verbal skills will work more often than many people think. Often, without fighting, a bully can be convinced you don't want to fight, but will do so if pushed beyond a certain limit. Then they must worry about where that limit is. Most bullies fear losing over every thing else.

As a case study. My sympathy for the kid who started that is zero.

As is mine. I was interested in seeing a bigger kid interpose himself between the bully and the victim, and another person back up that person. Curious dynamics.

 

[drop bear]

Although I don't care to be bullied, I don't mind frustrating a bully by not sinking to his/her level. Good verbal skills can often do that. Even if I can only avoid fighting, given the society we live in, that is preferable to me over the time I would have to spend with the police and in court. But good verbal skills will work more often than many people think. Often, without fighting, a bully can be convinced you don't want to fight, but will do so if pushed beyond a certain limit. Then they must worry about where that limit is. Most bullies fear losing over every thing else.



As is mine. I was interested in seeing a bigger kid interpose himself between the bully and the victim, and another person back up that person. Curious dynamics.

There is quite the drama unfolded over that.

 

[drop bear]

Although I don't care to be bullied, I don't mind frustrating a bully by not sinking to his/her level. Good verbal skills can often do that. Even if I can only avoid fighting, given the society we live in, that is preferable to me over the time I would have to spend with the police and in court. But good verbal skills will work more often than many people think. Often, without fighting, a bully can be convinced you don't want to fight, but will do so if pushed beyond a certain limit. Then they must worry about where that limit is. Most bullies fear losing over every thing else.



As is mine. I was interested in seeing a bigger kid interpose himself between the bully and the victim, and another person back up that person. Curious dynamics.

No Cookies dailytelegraph.com.au

Then the other kid came out and said he was the victim and people took sides it was quite an interesting read.

But here a year of torment one body slam eat the suspension and the problem is solved.

 

[Dr.Smith]

Again another entire thread of rubbish lols, I mean really your adults and you actually had to take time out to clarify rather or not a victim is at fault, that's absurd and nearly mentally I'll to read. You don't even know what the topic is throughout most of this thread, then you post a boy Buddy slamming another boy, I think their forth graders and that's your self-defense sceniro model, are you kidding me. It was caught on tape, all the other boy had to do was turn the bully in and it would have been him suspended not the other way around. And don't start barking about training, it has nothing to do with your testosterone induced mma model for self-defense rant that I know you want to go off on. This is the real world lols, not a jet Lee movie or an mma ludis. Wake up smell the coffee.

 

[elder999]

Again another entire thread of rubbish lols, I mean really your adults and you actually had to take time out to clarify rather or not a victim is at fault, that's absurd and nearly mentally I'll to read. You don't even know what the topic is throughout most of this thread, then you post a boy Buddy slamming another boy, I think their forth graders and that's your self-defense sceniro model, are you kidding me. It was caught on tape, all the other boy had to do was turn the bully in and it would have been him suspended not the other way around. And don't start barking about training, it has nothing to do with your testosterone induced mma model for self-defense rant that I know you want to go off on. This is the real world lols, not a jet Lee movie or an mma ludis. Wake up smell the coffee.

THanks for such a worthwhile contribution....

 

[Steve]

Thanks Steve. You will pardon me if I say it seems contrary to me. If one is calling something by one term and another says no it is not that... ummm seems contrary. Now, I do not call my teaching self defense but I do see the obvious cross overs and am surprised that you are unable or unwilling to. Perhaps we are speaking around each other a bit? In your opinion, as someone who trains in a martial art, who either has been involved or knows others that have been involved in 'self-defense' situations, what do you consider should be a pillar of self defense? Please in your own words Steve describe what is self defense training. If you could describe self defense training course, what would it be? I think further up thread it was purple or brown belt in BJJ? Was that you?

Here is an exercise that might help us to communicate to each other.
Steve, you are now an instructor at say an open community college and have been asked to teach a self defense course for students at that college. It is a twice a week for 12 weeks course each class lasting 1.5 hours. There have been a number of violent assaults and robberies, a number of fights at the dorms, a couple of reported rapes (no arrests), and a few gay men have recently been beaten up (no arrests). Many of the crime suspects are considered non students but many are also students. All of the victims have either been students or university staff. Due to budget cuts campus security is a single mobile (driving) patrol but the university has put a few more lights on the pathways and cut down some bushes. They have made available emergency whistles for the students to purchase at a discount.

Please describe your curriculum and testing methods for the above course.

Thanks Steve
Regards
Brian King

Based upon the diversity of opinions around what 'self defense' actually is, I think it would be a mistake to try and combine all of that into one class, Brian. Addressing fights in the dorms isn't the same as protection from a serial rapist, which isn't anything at all like protecting oneself from being mugged.

Ideally, I would think each of the different needs would be addressed on their own. From this thread, I don't think any martial arts component would be very helpful. Any physical skills would take too long to learn well enough to rely upon under duress, and as has been stated in this thread, other things such as mindset, awareness, lifestyle and personal choices would have a much more direct impact upon personal safety than any cursory, martial arts instruction.

In situations where it's more about safety from random attacks, such as in the case of serial rapists or muggers (as opposed to lifestyle dangers, like drinking to excess and hanging out at frats or dorm parties without a wingman (ie, a buddy)), I'd probably bring in someone to talk about force multipliers, use of force laws and the like. Pepper spray, a taser or even a gun.

In addition to what's taught in the class, I guess I'd encourage the students to stay fit and if they want to learn to fight, to enroll in whatever martial art they are interested in. We've seen examples of pretty much every art working and not working. Based on this thread and the many like it that have come before, my opinion is that the best martial art for you is the one you are interested in and will continue to train in. And ultimately, for just about everyone who doesn't engage in risky behaviors or lifestyles, it will never matter.

The one exception (if we exclude people who are professionally at risk, such as bouncers, LEO and the like) is violence against women in the form of domestic abuse, date rape, molestation or the like. I don't know if martial training would be of greater benefit. But, sadlly, it's common. My impressions from the conversations we've had around here, is that martial arts can be helfpul, but that there are many other things that are as important or more important for helping these women. I'll defer to others on this.

Its similar to warfare. While combat is where the issue is decided, a military victory is dependent on so many other things ( logistics, training, transportation, manufacturing, equipment, intelligence, etc) including all of the hundreds of support and administration jobs that the actual fighting is really a small fraction of the overall effort. But if you loose the fight all that other stuff is sort of irrelevant.

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Tgace, great point. I think an important note, however, is that warfare always involves combat. Combat is a necessary part of battle, which is a component of warfare. The salient point here is that combat is not a necessary part of self defense. In fact, as has been said many times on this forum, successful self defense happens before any fighting, and often avoids the fight entirely. Fighting is an adjunct to self defense. It's what happens when your self defense training has failed.

So if a bully approaches me and begins an argument with an apparent attempt to monkey dance for a while, then attacks me, any attempts on my part to dissuade the bully without fighting are not defense, and therefore self defense?

I mentioned above about the varying situations that should all be handled seperately. Bullying is another one. And how one handles an adult bully is likely going to be different from an adolescent bully... so even in this situation, there are variables that would necessitate an approach best suited for the situation. And your scenario seems focused on physical bullying. We're seeing less and less of that in schools around here. Kids just don't fight like they used to. Rather, what we see a lot of is psychological bullying, whether it's the smart kids picking on the "dumb" kids who have trouble, or cyber bullying or a multitude of other situations which don't neatly fit the old stereotype of a bully being a big, dumb jock picking on the socially awkward nerd. no one size fits all here, and approaching it that way isn't likely to be effective.

I don't recall reading that but maybe someone did say it and I missed it. I know I didn't say it.

But I do find it interesting that you seem to find fighting the only self defense. I understand how those of us who are MA are interested in effective fighting, and how we place a high value on effective fighting. But wouldn't the action I take to prevent a fight be defensive, as in my hypothetical question for drop bear above? I don't see how you can separate out what prevents a fight, from having as much value as the successful conclusion of a fight.

Quite the opposite. I'm echoing what you are all saying, which is that fighting and fighting skills are not self defense. The fighting is what happens when self defense skills have failed. I think this was K-man who said it earlier in this thread, and it's something that has been said many times in other threads in the past.

 

[Tgace]

I disagree somewhat Steve. My military analogy wasn't meant to be stretched that far. My point is that warfare incorporates many disciplines besides fighting as should a good self-defense program. Of course warfare mandates combat, but preparing for fighting is part of "self-defense" training just like combat is part of military operations.

It's like shooting skills for Cops. Most cops wont ever shoot anyone, getting into a shoot means all other options have failed...and LE requires MANY various skills so why train so much for it?

Because, even though it's rare, if you can't do it when "the balloon goes up" you will probably be dead.

An average, untrained person looking for "self-defense" training is probably really just looking for fighting techniques. I think (at least personally) that a wholistic SD program has to cover the full spectrum.

 

[Steve]

I disagree somewhat Steve. My military analogy wasn't meant to be stretched that far. My point is that warfare incorporates many disciplines besides fighting as should a good self-defense program. Of course warfare mandates combat, but preparing for fighting is part of "self-defense" training just like combat is part of military operations.

It's like shooting skills for Cops. Most cops wont ever shoot anyone, getting into a shoot means all other options have failed...and LE requires MANY various skills so why train so much for it?

Because, even though it's rare, if you can't do it when "the balloon goes up" you will probably be dead.

An average, untrained person looking for "self-defense" training is probably really just looking for fighting techniques. I think (at least personally) that a wholistic SD program has to cover the full spectrum.

Makes sense. I would think that a holistic SD program would cover everything. Kind of like the earthquake kit analogy. I guess what I'm saying is that, based upon what I've read here, there are "pillars" that are essential, and then many... I don't know... secondary supports that are situational or even could be considered optional. Fighting skills for most seem to be optional, based upon what has been said by many in this thread. Handy, certainly, but not essential.

Or just to give two examples, which would be a more likely self defense scenario, someone being approached by a potential mugger or someone being flipped off in a potential road rage incident? Statistically, people are driving all the time and just about everyone has been in a potential road rage situation more than once. Most people have never been mugged.

 

[oftheherd1]

...
Fighting is an adjunct to self defense. It's what happens when your self defense training has failed.
...

I get your point, but I would have said fighting is one facet of SD, when the non-fighting facets fail. Again, I get you (do I?).

I mentioned above about the varying situations that should all be handled seperately. Bullying is another one. And how one handles an adult bully is likely going to be different from an adolescent bully... so even in this situation, there are variables that would necessitate an approach best suited for the situation. And your scenario seems focused on physical bullying. We're seeing less and less of that in schools around here. Kids just don't fight like they used to. Rather, what we see a lot of is psychological bullying, whether it's the smart kids picking on the "dumb" kids who have trouble, or cyber bullying or a multitude of other situations which don't neatly fit the old stereotype of a bully being a big, dumb jock picking on the socially awkward nerd. no one size fits all here, and approaching it that way isn't likely to be effective.

All points well taken. We don't normally think of SD as a defense against something that isn't physical or has strong potential to be. But you may be right that other forms of bullying should be part of SD training. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think that should be part of a MA SD training without the MA instructor having training specific to that type of bullying. Or as mentioned by someone else, perhaps bringing in someone who does have training and experience to instruct in that.
...

Quite the opposite. I'm echoing what you are all saying, which is that fighting and fighting skills are not self defense. The fighting is what happens when self defense skills have failed. I think this was K-man who said it earlier in this thread, and it's something that has been said many times in other threads in the past.

I don't recall ever saying that fighting and fighting skills are not self defense. Perhaps you could refresh my memory? If I said anything close it must have been in some special context.

It is a part of SD. And teaching fighting skills is something MA should be particularly adept at. But I think if the situation allows, other methods of preventing an attack should be tried.

 

[Tgace]

I think that the term "self defense" has the connotations of physically defending oneself. The other pillars are probably better called prevention, preparation and perhaps social/life engineering.

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[Xue Sheng]

I disagree somewhat Steve. My military analogy wasn't meant to be stretched that far. My point is that warfare incorporates many disciplines besides fighting as should a good self-defense program. Of course warfare mandates combat, but preparing for fighting is part of "self-defense" training just like combat is part of military operations.

It's like shooting skills for Cops. Most cops wont ever shoot anyone, getting into a shoot means all other options have failed...and LE requires MANY various skills so why train so much for it?

Because, even though it's rare, if you can't do it when "the balloon goes up" you will probably be dead.

An average, untrained person looking for "self-defense" training is probably really just looking for fighting techniques. I think (at least personally) that a wholistic SD program has to cover the full spectrum.

Heard an interesting thing this past weekend on the topic of military vs. police. Military is trained to shoot first, police are trained to shoot last. Meaning the military's first option is to shoot but for the police it is the last option.

 

[oftheherd1]

I think that the term "self defense" has the connotations of physically defending oneself. The other pillars are probably better called prevention, preparation and perhaps social/life engineering.

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Heard an interesting thing this past weekend on the topic of military vs. police. Military is trained to shoot first, police are trained to shoot last. Meaning the military's first option is to shoot but for the police it is the last option.

As an aside to the thread, I understand what is trying to be said. But really, the military is trained to shoot, the option when depends on training, circumstance, and orders. There was a time in Vietnam when the orders were not to shoot even at exposed enemy troops unless they fired at us first. Do you know how to spell frustration and anger?

 

[Xue Sheng]

As an aside to the thread, I understand what is trying to be said. But really, the military is trained to shoot, the option when depends on training, circumstance, and orders. There was a time in Vietnam when the orders were not to shoot even at exposed enemy troops unless they fired at us first. Do you know how to spell frustration and anger?

A friend of mine was an MP during Vietnam and he was not supposed to carry a loaded side arm. He could carry the gun and the bullets separately and only load the gun when necessary...yeah... he knew how spell frustration and anger... another friend was mine was a tunnel rat...but that is an entirely different story

Now so not to take this thread way off the tracks, I shall stop commenting along these lines in this thread

 

[Buka]

I think how each of us uses language causes confusion (probably stress and anger, too) I know I'm to blame for some of it around here, probably a lot of it. When I use the term "fighting" I mean all aspects of what "I" consider fighting. I mean self defense, sparring, competing, taking someone down and securing them (for arrest, removal, until authorities arrive) one step contact drills with resisitance, brawls, sucker punches, ambushes whatever. Anything that pits one person against another person(s) that concerns physical resistance/contact, to me, is fighting.

It's why I always say Martial Arts is based on fighting. (regardless if I'm right or wrong) I consider everything in grappling as fighting. I consider everything in striking as fighting. It's the way I use the language.

It's a hard habit to break, it's what I've always used and meant.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think that the term "self defense" has the connotations of physically defending oneself.

I think "self-defense" should also include "defense for your love ones", or even "defense for others (such as a stranger on the street)" and not just "defense for yourself". You can hit me any way you want to, but if you dare to hit my love one, I'll hit you that even your own mother won't be able to recognize you.