Full Head Control vs. Untrained

[Juany118]

Viiew from the thai grapple. View attachment 20081

LOL, thats as bad as the totally compliant Aikido videos. You have a person with their arms directly at their sides, not moving or leaning in (remember the main thing that makes the clinch scary is the fact you are disrupting their center, so they aren't balanced) both hands will not be static, your knees will be getting in the way of your field of vision etc. Also remember how the premise is the knee strikes to the face/head are what, allegedly make it impossible to draw a knife. You are just clinched there, you aren't kneeing them to the face or head in that position. Since you like videos so much here is an example.

So unless you have a very decent height advantage you will be bending that person over to knee them in target area and their upper torso and head are now barriers to your awareness. Now if you just plan on kneeing them in the stomach, that of course doesn't apply but everything else does.

 

[Red Sun]

I spent the last 20min trying to work out how to make a quote into many quotes. Is blue text okay to distinguish my reply from your original post?

Missed this the first time around
...i did think it was a bit strange that you went past that

History is not abstract. To be abstract is to be theoretical or lacking in concrete existence. History is anything but, rather it is the record of events that actually occurred. Various wars happened, the weapons and techniques used in said wars happened. They are facts not abstract theories.
This is 1/2 true. In history, we lose out on details. But, i'll talk more about that in a second.

All a CCTV camera does is provide another way of recording and storing past events, aka a new modern method of recording History.
It's more than that - It's irrefutable and verifiable evidence. History is a description of what may have happened. We know that Filipinos fought of Spaniards, but the details are only as good as the person who wrote them down. On video, we see everything, and draw our own conclusions. I can provide you with visual information which you can interpret as we see fit - With history, i can just point at drug dealers getting shot, and we can daydream about how long their killers spent at the shooting range.

The reason for the lack of CCTV footage is simply this.
Wait... what? There's HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of CCTV videos readily available. There are videos of people fighting off committed knife attacks, and most of them are untrained, elderly, and unarmed. I didn't even want to go there - I was just bringing us back on point...

1. the number of people who study martial arts is small. In the US, as an example, it's roughly 5% of the population (current population is over 318 million the article sites a study noting 18.1 million study Martial arts)

2. the number of martial arts that focus on techniques that make for potentially effective knife defense is even smaller than that

3. the number of instructors that focus on said techniques is even smaller.

4. it takes a fair amount of training to be able to pull off the techniques, if taught, and the ability to not allow your fear of the knife make you "lock up"
...i'm not going to go there. This is a can of worms i'm far too inexperienced a debater to have a go at.

5. the penetration of CCTV cameras is far from universal, I think the UK has the highest penetration

6. CCTV footage that does exist often doesn't make it to YouTube due to privacy concerns.
Google Video Search.

So we have footage of people using MAs when attacked but of all the footage of people being attacked what % is that really? Then you add in the factors above regarding training and really the chances of such a video being captured are pretty slim to practically nil.
Who cares? If we're going to research knife attacks, filtering it down to trained MA'ists successfully using the things they've trained at so that all of their time and experience pay off is some of the worst sampling bias i've ever heard of. We look at the problem and we see if and when and how our theoretical solutions fit into it.

So you then look to History documented by other means.
If history is telling a different story to irrefutable and verifiable evidence, we have a problem.

 

[Red Sun]

Let me just add: I agree with what youre saying about maintaining situational awareness and stuff. Its just the stuff youre using to back it up tickles me :/ Whats wrong with using tangible evidence that people can look at with their own two eyes?

 

[Juany118]

Let me just add: I agree with what youre saying about maintaining situational awareness and stuff. Its just the stuff youre using to back it up tickles me :/ Whats wrong with using tangible evidence that people can look at with their own two eyes?

Maybe the issue is perspective. I am a cop, was a soldier, but my first course of study was to be a History Teacher. Also in ROTC I learned tactics and strategy from Military History.

The CCTV footage you watch is only different in terms of medium from the charts and maps you may see students at the War College in Carlisle using at Gettysburg to explain the battle and the history of Martial Arts that have proven effective is but a further distillation. From Division, to Battalion, to Company, to Platoon, to Squad, to the Individual when looking at it from that perspective.

Plus the fact I have experience in using various martial arts techniques in real life fights (thanks to the fact I work in a high crime area. Well not real thanks but you get the idea.) Perspective is everything.

Modern historians, are actually pretty good at weeding through the BS. Especially when it comes to 20th century stuff (where FMA success is documented as well). CCTV are part of History as well, and do not require as much fact checking etc. bit they are but a myopic snap shot of a single incident, involving the complications I noted.

On top of all of the above in your "blue" response you fail to address the SMALL fraction of a population that studies martial arts, then the even smaller fraction that practices effective knife defense and THEN the lack of CCTV penetration on top of the lack of universal uploading to the public sphere. Hell there was a recent case in the US where the ACLU complained about a Police Department that uploaded body cam video to YouTube and the suspect has threatened to sue. Washington Man Threatening to Sue Police for Posting Embarrassing Body Cam Video of Drunken Antics - PINAC News

 

[drop bear]

LOL, thats as bad as the totally compliant Aikido videos. You have a person with their arms directly at their sides, not moving or leaning in (remember the main thing that makes the clinch scary is the fact you are disrupting their center, so they aren't balanced) both hands will not be static, your knees will be getting in the way of your field of vision etc. Also remember how the premise is the knee strikes to the face/head are what, allegedly make it impossible to draw a knife. You are just clinched there, you aren't kneeing them to the face or head in that position. Since you like videos so much here is an example.

So unless you have a very decent height advantage you will be bending that person over to knee them in target area and their upper torso and head are now barriers to your awareness. Now if you just plan on kneeing them in the stomach, that of course doesn't apply but everything else does.

If they are bent over you can see over their shoulder if they are straight you can see under it.

Basically you can see enough. If you want to look for a knife. And you are not dodging punches while you do it.

Still waiting for a non compliant video that your method works at all.

 

[Juany118]

If they are bent over you can see over their shoulder if they are straight you can see under it.

Basically you can see enough.

Lol. Right.... Done and you are back on ignore. I had hopes for reasonable conversation, obviously false hopes because I linked a history of successfull use militarily, linked videos proving you own selfie post to be self serving BS that wasn't relevant to the debate only to see the same evasive BS. I should have expected it and not taken you off ignore. I will never make the mistaje again because even when you dug your own grave with the selfie shot you keep on trucking.

 

[Red Sun]

Maybe the issue is perspective. I am a cop, was a soldier, but my first course of study was to be a History Teacher. Also in ROTC I learned tactics and strategy from Military History.

The CCTV footage you watch is only different in terms of medium from the charts and maps you may see students at the War College in Carlisle using at Gettysburg to explain the battle and the history of Martial Arts that have proven effective is but a further distillation. From Division, to Battalion, to Company, to Platoon, to Squad, to the Individual when looking at it from that perspective.

Plus the fact I have experience in using various martial arts techniques in real life fights (thanks to the fact I work in a high crime area. Well not real thanks but you get the idea.) Perspective is everything.

Modern historians, are actually pretty good at weeding through the BS. Especially when it comes to 20th century stuff (where FMA success is documented as well). CCTV are part of History as well, and do not require as much fact checking etc. bit they are but a myopic snap shot of a single incident, involving the complications I noted.

If you want to give people a history lesson to prove you can teach them about knife defense, dont let a whiny pest like me stop you

On top of all of the above in your "blue" response you fail to address the SMALL fraction of a population that studies martial arts, then the even smaller fraction that practices effective knife defense and THEN the lack of CCTV penetration on top of the lack of universal uploading to the public sphere.

"...i'm not going to go there. This is a can of worms i'm far too inexperienced a debater to have a go at."

 

[drop bear]

Lol. Right.... Done and you are back on ignore. I had hopes for reasonable conversation, obviously false hopes because I linked a history of successfull use militarily, linked videos proving you own selfie post to be self serving BS that wasn't relevant to the debate only to see the same evasive BS. I should have expected it and not taken you off ignore. I will never make the mistaje again because even when you dug your own grave with the selfie shot you keep on trucking.

So you were wrong about not being able to see in the plumb. And you can't find an actual example of your ideas working And are having a sook?

You don't think that reaction is a bit childish?

 

[HW1]

First simply because a knife is more dangerous does NOT mean you can't deal with it period. What it means is that, in self defense situations when you don't know whether or not the suspect may be armed you use techniques that maximize situational awareness and decrease vulnerabilities to weapons vs ones that reduce situational awareness and increase vulnerabilities. Self defense is NOT about beating the crap out of other people like in the ring, it is about mitigating risk as you defend yourself. The first step in risk mitigation is situational awareness.

The positional dominate of a Thai Clinch stops effective punching an kicking yes BUT it does not stop what would be an ineffective punch but is now an effective stab because a knife is in the hand and it not only limits perception of the waist/pocket area but also places you in a perfect position for a thrust into the abdomen.

As for your light definitely brighter, no doubt. I selected my light for the following reasons.

1. In a real self defense encounter you usually don't know the person is a actual threat until they are rather close. Also such encounters usually happen in urban areas with some sort of overhead lighting. It's not like you are in pitch black and need to be aware of a cliff.
2. Due to number 1 the main purpose of the light is to "dazzle" and 500 lumens does fine. I don't know about your purposes but even at work, due to the environment of my town, 950 lumens is overkill.
3. If you look at the bezel and end cap of my light they are specifically designed to do more damage and cause more pain when used to strike.

So basically, for my purposes, yours may be different, 950 lumens is the equivalent of using a 12 gauge shotgun to kill a mouse, and I appreciate the additional "meat" on the bezel and end cap of the one I selected.

"My torch is better than yours."
That pretty much sums up his mentality and motivation in arguing the subject. Don't waste your time.

 

[Juany118]

If you want to give people a history lesson to prove you can teach them about knife defense, dont let a whiny pest like me stop you

I personally can't teach MA (best I can do is "pointers") I can teach history and study MA, but that doesn't mean I can teach MA. I just know what minimizes and increases risk based on the arts I have studied and am studying. Currently I study an art where you learn knife fighting from the beginning (Kali). Part of knife fighting is obviously knife defense.

And you aren't whiny btw.

I am a Vulcan of sorts and so always seek to minimize risk. As such I enter every encounter assuming an opponent is armed until proven otherwise. An occupational hazard I suppose. /Shrug

 

[drop bear]

"My torch is better than yours."
That pretty much sums up his mentality and motivation in arguing the subject. Don't waste your time.

Not really.

I mean at least we showed that the whole knife issue was basically a farce.

Which is important for people to distinguish between what should be and what is.

 

[drop bear]

On top of all of the above in your "blue" response you fail to address the SMALL fraction of a population that studies martial arts, then the even smaller fraction that practices effective knife defense and THEN the lack of CCTV penetration on top of the lack of universal uploading to the public sphere. Hell there was a recent case in the US where the ACLU complained about a Police Department that uploaded body cam video to YouTube and the suspect has threatened to sue.

Yet I can find a video of people using plumb knees in a street fight. In the Philippines. Where you would think they would huge using your tactics.

Which we cannot find an example of.

 

[RTKDCMB]

As shown in this video. Specifically chosen to make my point.

Speaking of awareness that Moonwalking Bear should know better than to stroll through a bunch of people jumping around throwing a bunch of basket balls around. He could have been injured.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

How sure of these techniques are you willing to be?

Spotting that knife?

I'm not going to claim I'm sure any technique will give me a great chance of spotting a knife in time. I am going to claim (based on my experience both grappling and training with knives) that some techniques are going to make it even harder to spot the knife. The double head control is one of them.

The whole knife conversation is a strawman. In that someone came up with the idea that head control won't let you see a knife pulled in time to let you deal with it.(kind of incorrect assumption)

And so there is another method(so far unspecified) that will fill the role of head control and let you deal with your strawman knife.

What exactly are you using instead?

Lets see if your alternative works against anybody anywhere before we start adding knives.

Show me what you are doing to stop effective punches and kicks. Because they will still end a fight in the other guys favor.

Show me what you think is at least as effective as Thai grappling.

Exept hand trapping and grabbing doesn't address punches and kicks all that well. So you raise your risk of getting bashed before that knife ever appears.

Based on my experience sparring with and without knives, head and inside arm control offers good options for dealing with unarmed attacks, but is superior for monitoring for the appearance of the knife, increasing the odds of preventing the knife being drawn, controlling the weapon arm if it is drawn, or just disengaging and making distance. It's not quite as dominant in a purely unarmed setting, but it's still pretty good.

As I said in my original comment, I wouldn't rule out using the double head control in a street fight, but I wouldn't want to hang out there for very long if I didn't get an immediate knockout or takedown.

I'm going to go out of a limb here and say that if someone is successfully thai clinching you, kneeing you in the face, and outright controlling you, you're not going to be in the proper state of mind to attempt to reach in your pocket, pull out a knife, open that knife, and begin to stab or slash at the person who has been kneeing you in the face the entire time.

The point is that if you're being beaten that badly you're not going to have the mental clarity to reach for the knife, grab the knife, deploy the blade (if its a pocket knife or a balisong) and begin to slice and stab at your attacker. Again, while you're attempting to do all of this you are getting rag-dolled from the neck down and getting kneed in the face.

Possibly, but it's a mistake to assume that the moment you achieve double head control that you'll have your opponent's structure completely broken down and be landing continuous unanswered knees to the head. It's more common for it to be a progression - break their structure a little, land some knees to the gut, break it a bit more, land some more knees to the midsection, and hopefully eventually get them all the way broken down to where you can land unanswered knees to the face. I've had guys caught in the clinch who spent their time trying to answer my knees with punches. The punches weren't terribly effective, but if they had been holding a knife the trade would not have been in my favor.

I don't have an experienced MT clincher to try this with - how much temporary protection can you give yourself against both knees with a single hand? Would it be enough to buy time to deploy a knife without dealing with the ringing knees to the head? It seems it might be enough if the knee is on the same side as the defending arm (so the elbow and short-leverage blocks are in play), but seems pretty iffy if the other knee comes in.

It's not that hard if you know what you're doing. If I were with you in person I could teach you what you need to know pretty quickly.

Basically, your first priority is to keep your head as upright as possible. Step towards your opponent, sinking your hips to get them as directly under your head as you can. Look up, not down at the incoming knees. Looking down makes it easier for the opponent to break your structure. Your left arm fences diagonally between your bodies with your left hand at your opponent's left hip. Use feel rather than sight to counter the knees. When he tries to attack with his left knee, you're making a post to stop his hip action. When he tries to attack with his right knee, catch it on the point of your left elbow. Keep working to get your hips under your head.

A good Muay Thai clinch specialist will have ways to work past this defense eventually, but it should give you plenty of time to deploy a knife with your right hand.

I don't think the Muay Thai clinch is the best first move and it seems that's where the discussion of it has headed as if 2 people get into a fight and the first move is to layout a Muay Thai Clinch. I think that's where the confusion may be but I could be wrong about how others may be seeing it. For me I see a Muay Thai clinch being deployed when someone attacks with punches and the punches get tangled and from there the clinch would be used.

In general, you're correct. However a street assault situation may begin at much closer range than a ring fight or sparring match, so there may be an opportunity to grab the clinch immediately from the get go.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I spent the last 20min trying to work out how to make a quote into many quotes. Is blue text okay to distinguish my reply from your original post?

Just highlight the portions of the quote you want to reply to and you will get a black tab, choose '+quote' and repeat for each portion you chose. In the answer box choose 'insert quotes' and they will magically appear.

 

[Red Sun]

Just highlight the portions of the quote you want to reply to and you will get a black tab, choose '+quote' and repeat for each portion you chose. In the answer box choose 'insert quotes' and they will magically appear.

Thankyou!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not going to claim I'm sure any technique will give me a great chance of spotting a knife in time. I am going to claim (based on my experience both grappling and training with knives) that some techniques are going to make it even harder to spot the knife. The double head control is one of them.









Based on my experience sparring with and without knives, head and inside arm control offers good options for dealing with unarmed attacks, but is superior for monitoring for the appearance of the knife, increasing the odds of preventing the knife being drawn, controlling the weapon arm if it is drawn, or just disengaging and making distance. It's not quite as dominant in a purely unarmed setting, but it's still pretty good.

As I said in my original comment, I wouldn't rule out using the double head control in a street fight, but I wouldn't want to hang out there for very long if I didn't get an immediate knockout or takedown.






Possibly, but it's a mistake to assume that the moment you achieve double head control that you'll have your opponent's structure completely broken down and be landing continuous unanswered knees to the head. It's more common for it to be a progression - break their structure a little, land some knees to the gut, break it a bit more, land some more knees to the midsection, and hopefully eventually get them all the way broken down to where you can land unanswered knees to the face. I've had guys caught in the clinch who spent their time trying to answer my knees with punches. The punches weren't terribly effective, but if they had been holding a knife the trade would not have been in my favor.


It's not that hard if you know what you're doing. If I were with you in person I could teach you what you need to know pretty quickly.

Basically, your first priority is to keep your head as upright as possible. Step towards your opponent, sinking your hips to get them as directly under your head as you can. Look up, not down at the incoming knees. Looking down makes it easier for the opponent to break your structure. Your left arm fences diagonally between your bodies with your left hand at your opponent's left hip. Use feel rather than sight to counter the knees. When he tries to attack with his left knee, you're making a post to stop his hip action. When he tries to attack with his right knee, catch it on the point of your left elbow. Keep working to get your hips under your head.

A good Muay Thai clinch specialist will have ways to work past this defense eventually, but it should give you plenty of time to deploy a knife with your right hand.



In general, you're correct. However a street assault situation may begin at much closer range than a ring fight or sparring match, so there may be an opportunity to grab the clinch immediately from the get go.

Thanks, Tony. That was a well-explained explanation. I can see that I'll want to learn to do a proper Thai clinch (assuming there's more to the technique than I can already see), so I and my students can practice against it.

By the way, do you have any relatives in South Carolina? I know a Dismukes there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just highlight the portions of the quote you want to reply to and you will get a black tab, choose '+quote' and repeat for each portion you chose. In the answer box choose 'insert quotes' and they will magically appear.

Or, reply to the post, and place "/quote" inside square brackets where you want to break to reply, then place "quote" inside square brackets after your reply to restart the quote format.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Google "history of the Philippines" and you will see that my comment regarding Spain never completely subduing Mindanao is a Historic fact. They even went to the extent of outlawing it's practice. Eskrima

You will see FMA was what Killed Magellan .Battle of Mactan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia You will also see the use of FMA and various blades documented as being used against the Japanese, especially again, by the Moros of Mindanao. Heck the US Military documented a defeat of their own at the hands of Bolo wielding FMAers... Battle of Pulang Lupa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So FMA works...period. Simply because you chose to ignore history doesn't mean it ceases to exist.

Thanks for the information. I always like to read about battles. I've overworked my body so I can read up on these battles while I recover.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Or, reply to the post, and place "/quote" inside square brackets where you want to break to reply, then place "quote" inside square brackets after your reply to restart the quote format.

That's the way I used to do it before I discovered the 'insert quotes' function.