Full Head Control vs. Untrained

[drop bear]

It is, and it isn't. The times folks think it'd be useful, it's often protected. The times folks feel helpless, the attacker often thinks them so, as well, and isn't focused on protecting his bits. It's certainly not the panacea some have put forth in years past (even in a few fairly recent videos), but it can often be used to break someone's structure simply because they're so busy getting it out of the way so you can't grab or hit it.

And we are still talking about being able to knee a dude in the face. Which is as good as most groin shots.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And we are still talking about being able to knee a dude in the face. Which is as good as most groin shots.

from a wrestler's point of view, during clinch, if your opponent's knee can hit your face, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.

During clinch, when you stand on one leg, there will be nothing that you can do to stop your opponent's body spinning.

 

[drop bear]

from a wrestler's point of view, during clinch, if your opponent's knee can hit your face, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.

During clinch, when you stand on one leg, there will be nothing that you can do to stop your opponent's body spinning.

Sweeps?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sweeps?

Sweep, scoop, hook, spring, cut, block, break, twist, spin, ...

You already have your grips on your opponent. The moment your opponent lifts up his knee and stand on one leg, the moment you take him down.

 

[drop bear]

Sweep, scoop, hook, spring, cut, block, break, twist, spin, ...

You already have your grips on your opponent. The moment your opponent lifts up his knee and stand on one leg, the moment you take him down.

Then sweeps wouldn't work. One leg off the ground.

 

[Buka]

The first few times you get caught in a plum, by someone who's skilled, you're going to learn a lesson you can learn in no other way. I don't give a damn how good you are. Sounds easy to counter or break, looks easy to counter or break, it ain't easy to counter or break. And they'll want to keep you there, not transition anywhere, they'll punish you, right there in that plum. Oh, how they'll punish you.

It's like pontificating on a rear naked choke by someone who's never grappled, "I'd do this or I'd do that,.... of course I'd never get caught in that position in the first place." Un huh.

Go find a good Muay Thai guy. Get yourself some plums. You'll love em.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Then sweeps wouldn't work. One leg off the ground.

Here is an example. In this picture, you "sticky lift" your opponent's leg. You then attack his single standing leg. If your opponent knee strikes you, it saves you that extra "sticky lift" effort. When you are standing on one leg, you will have no way to stop your opponent's "body rotation". You will have a very small base and that's your single foot.

This is different from kick that you stand on single leg. When you kick, your opponent's hands have no grips on you. But in "clinch", your opponent already has grips on you, your single leg will put you in danger when you deal with a good wrestler.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it ain't easy to counter or break.

It's not that hard if you know what to do. But if you know how to take advantage on it, you may not want to break it.

There are many ways to break this clinch. The easiest way is to apply "tearing" and "soft punch" principles.

You can

- Extend your right arm between your opponent's arms.
- Touch your right hand on his right shoulder.
- Put your left hand between his arms and touch the inside of his right wrist.
- Punch your right fist on his right shoulder.
- Step back your left foot.
- Turn back your left shoulder (at fast speed) while striking your left hand on his right wrist.

When your right arm, your chest, and your left shoulder are all in a perfect straight line, you have already break apart that clinch.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

from a wrestler's point of view, during clinch, if your opponent's knee can hit your face, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.

During clinch, when you stand on one leg, there will be nothing that you can do to stop your opponent's body spinning.

Unless you use the control of the clinch to set him off-balance before you knee. From a static position, he can probably take advantage of the weak base of a one-legged stance. If he's already off-balance, he may not be able to do so in any useful way.

 

[Buka]

It's not that hard if you know what to do. But if you know how to take advantage on it, you may not want to break it.

There are many ways to break this clinch. The easiest way is to apply "tearing" and "soft punch" principles.

You can

- Extend your right arm between your opponent's arms.
- Touch your right hand on his right shoulder.
- Put your left hand between his arms and touch the inside of his right wrist.
- Punch your right fist on his right shoulder.
- Step back your left foot.
- Turn back your left shoulder (at fast speed) while striking your left hand on his right wrist.

When your right arm, your chest, and your left shoulder are all in a perfect straight line, you have already break apart that clinch.

Yes, sure, but you've been in them. And know what to do.

For the uninitiated, it's like a bad dream.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone).

Another way to deal with this is to push down on the crooks of both of the clinchers elbows with the edges of your hands or your forearms and pull them down into your chest and drop your weight. It forces the clincher into a crouched position where they cannot knee you.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Another way to deal with this is to push down on the crooks of both of the clinchers elbows with the edges of your hands or your forearms and pull them down into your chest and drop your weight. It forces the clincher into a crouched position where they cannot knee you.

Have you ever tried this against an experienced Muay Thai fighter?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Have you ever tried this against an experienced Muay Thai fighter?

I used one of the senior students in one of the classes I am in. Experienced Muay Thai fighters are still bound by the same basic physics and body mechanics.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Another way to deal with this is to push down on the crooks of both of the clinchers elbows with the edges of your hands or your forearms and pull them down into your chest and drop your weight. It forces the clincher into a crouched position where they cannot knee you.

If your opponent wants to bend his arms, you should help him to bend even more. When you try to pinch on top of your opponent's elbow joint and try to lock his fore-arm on your chest, he may resist and try to straight his arms. You can then help him to straight his arms more than he wants to.

By using the same strategy. If your opponent is smart, the moment that you try to drop your body lower, he can also help you to drop even more and crash you all the way down to the ground. So the "borrow force" strategy is a 2 ways street.

It all depends on who has better wrestling skill. But in general, during clinch, you should try to make your opponent to feel "unaffordable". That's wrestling lesson 101.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Another way to deal with this is to push down on the crooks of both of the clinchers elbows with the edges of your hands or your forearms and pull them down into your chest and drop your weight. It forces the clincher into a crouched position where they cannot knee you.

I would assume this only works if you catch them before they get it fully on, at which point I'd think they have too much structure for this to force them down unless you catch them in a moment where their structure is off. Am I right?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Another way to deal with this is to push down on the crooks of both of the clinchers elbows with the edges of your hands or your forearms and pull them down into your chest and drop your weight. It forces the clincher into a crouched position where they cannot knee you.

I used one of the senior students in one of the classes I am in. Experienced Muay Thai fighters are still bound by the same basic physics and body mechanics.

The reason I asked is that you seem to have devised a counter for a technique which is not the actual Thai clinch.

In the plum position, the clincher already has his elbows (deliberately) on your chest, so there's no "pulling them down into your chest." Meanwhile his hands are anchored on the back of your head, so if you try to pull down on them, you're just pulling your own head down.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I would assume this only works if you catch them before they get it fully on, at which point I'd think they have too much structure for this to force them down unless you catch them in a moment where their structure is off. Am I right?

You are correct. What RTKDCMB is describing is basically a technique against a double lapel grab, not a Thai clinch. If the Muay Thai guy reaches out for the clinch in an incorrect way and you intercept him before he's locked up his grips, then it might work. If he enters correctly or completes the position, then it will not work.

 

[drop bear]

I would assume this only works if you catch them before they get it fully on, at which point I'd think they have too much structure for this to force them down unless you catch them in a moment where their structure is off. Am I right?

It sounds like you would be helping them. Downward weight via the direction of the elbows is what they are trying to do.

 

[RTKDCMB]

What RTKDCMB is describing is basically a technique against a double lapel grab, not a Thai clinch.

Not exactly, but it does come from that. I had the student lock his hands behind my head , with his forearms on either side of my neck and his elbows resting on my chest.

 

[Buka]

You are correct. What RTKDCMB is describing is basically a technique against a double lapel grab, not a Thai clinch. If the Muay Thai guy reaches out for the clinch in an incorrect way and you intercept him before he's locked up his grips, then it might work. If he enters correctly or completes the position, then it will not work.

I can attest to this. Wish I couldn't, would have saved me a lot of headaches. And a whole lot of knees.