Full Head Control vs. Untrained

[JowGaWolf]

Speaking of awareness that Moonwalking Bear should know better than to stroll through a bunch of people jumping around throwing a bunch of basket balls around. He could have been injured.

ha ha ha. in my hood we would have hit him with the ball for getting in the way and then everyone would see that lol

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Thanks, Tony. That was a well-explained explanation. I can see that I'll want to learn to do a proper Thai clinch (assuming there's more to the technique than I can already see), so I and my students can practice against it.

By the way, do you have any relatives in South Carolina? I know a Dismukes there.

No relatives in SC that I know of, but probably all the (Dismukes/Desmukes/Dismuke/ other alternate spellings) are related if you trace the family tree far enough.

Some key points on the Muay Thai "plum" clinch:

• hands grip the back of the head (around the occipital bone), not the neck
• one palm covers the back of the other hand, don't intertwine your fingers
• curl your palms towards you and use your body weight to bend their neck forward
• your forearms are flush against the opponents collar bones. This provides a barrier to help stop the opponent from driving in close for a body lock or takedown and gives extra leverage when bending the opponents neck forward
• squeeze your elbows together, this makes it difficult for the opponent to duck out
• you can make the opponent step the way you want by steering their face (twisting their neck) in the direction you want them to go and stepping back with your foot on that side so that your body weight drags them along by their twisted neck. Right in the middle of their step is a good time to hit them with a knee, since it's hard to for them to defend at that moment
• after you've hit your opponent with a couple of knees, whip them around and break their balance and structure a bit before you throw another knee. If you keep throwing knees from a stationary position, they have a chance to time your attack and catch the knee and try for a takedown
• mix up your attacks, straight knees, curve knees, knees to the thigh, midsection, and head, trips, throws, etc. You can also sometimes let go with one hand just long enough to throw an elbow
• Don't reach to get the clinch, especially not with both hands at once. That's a good way to get hit. I don't extend my arm more than about 120 degrees when grabbing the head.
• When you first grab the clinch, do it with impact - either a forearm strike to the collar bone or a snap down action to the back of the head. That makes it easier to break the opponent's structure.
• don't get so attached to the position that you are unwilling to transition to something else if the opponent starts to escape

There's a lot more, especially once you get into counters and escapes and how to counter the counters, but that should get you started.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's the way I used to do it before I discovered the 'insert quotes' function.

I've used both. It seems easier to me to use the manual method when I want to reply to several parts of a post. I don't know that it is easier, but it seems easier.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No relatives in SC that I know of, but probably all the (Dismukes/Desmukes/Dismuke/ other alternate spellings) are related if you trace the family tree far enough.

Some key points on the Muay Thai "plum" clinch:

• hands grip the back of the head (around the occipital bone), not the neck
• one palm covers the back of the other hand, don't intertwine your fingers
• curl your palms towards you and use your body weight to bend their neck forward
• your forearms are flush against the opponents collar bones. This provides a barrier to help stop the opponent from driving in close for a body lock or takedown and gives extra leverage when bending the opponents neck forward
• squeeze your elbows together, this makes it difficult for the opponent to duck out
• you can make the opponent step the way you want by steering their face (twisting their neck) in the direction you want them to go and stepping back with your foot on that side so that your body weight drags them along by their twisted neck. Right in the middle of their step is a good time to hit them with a knee, since it's hard to for them to defend at that moment
• after you've hit your opponent with a couple of knees, whip them around and break their balance and structure a bit before you throw another knee. If you keep throwing knees from a stationary position, they have a chance to time your attack and catch the knee and try for a takedown
• mix up your attacks, straight knees, curve knees, knees to the thigh, midsection, and head, trips, throws, etc. You can also sometimes let go with one hand just long enough to throw an elbow
• Don't reach to get the clinch, especially not with both hands at once. That's a good way to get hit. I don't extend my arm more than about 120 degrees when grabbing the head.
• When you first grab the clinch, do it with impact - either a forearm strike to the collar bone or a snap down action to the back of the head. That makes it easier to break the opponent's structure.
• don't get so attached to the position that you are unwilling to transition to something else if the opponent starts to escape

There's a lot more, especially once you get into counters and escapes and how to counter the counters, but that should get you started.

As I'm thinking through the mechanics involved, I'm seeing some possibilities for this as a transitional position, as well. I need to find an advanced student in NGA to play with (none of mine are yet).

 

[drop bear]

Based on my experience sparring with and without knives, head and inside arm control offers good options for dealing with unarmed attacks, but is superior for monitoring for the appearance of the knife, increasing the odds of preventing the knife being drawn, controlling the weapon arm if it is drawn, or just disengaging and making distance. It's not quite as dominant in a purely unarmed setting, but it's still pretty good.

As I said in my original comment, I wouldn't rule out using the double head control in a street fight, but I wouldn't want to hang out there for very long if I didn't get an immediate knockout or takedown.

I was thinking collar tie and wrist control. Or high underhook. But it is not the topic. I mean there are more dominant clinches. But you use your tool box. You dont go. "hey thai fighter scrap that. Do this"

But yeah there are other options like the beef Wellington which really like.

Which also gives you the hammer lock.


(unless they have two knives then you are screwed)

For me and fighting. The sooner I get them done with the better off I am. Bad guys suffer from anxiety as well.

So i don't give them a break from the fight to be able to consider options like a knife attack.

So if the plumb gives me free knees. And a safer move doesn't. The plumb becomes the safer move based on that factor.

Otherwise with weapons threat i cant afford to be hit with unarmed strikes. As that is going to make spotting a knife draw difficult as well.

So there becomes a lot of changes in the success rates of these things.

Otherwise plum is easy to transition in to and for sd you just modify to the one you like.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As I'm thinking through the mechanics involved, I'm seeing some possibilities for this as a transitional position, as well. I need to find an advanced student in NGA to play with (none of mine are yet).

It really does work well as a transitional position to set up a lot of different tools. It's not limited to the techniques that are allowed in Muay Thai matches.

If you're ever in the Lexington area, you're welcome to drop in and visit. I'd love to trade knowledge and ideas.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I was thinking collar tie and wrist control. Or high underhook

Those are good too.

But you use your tool box. You dont go. "hey thai fighter scrap that. Do this"

I wouldn't tell someone who is skilled in the plum to throw out the position and never use it in a street fight. I'm just saying that if you use it outside of competition you need to be aware of additional risks which aren't present in the ring. For me, that moves it further down my priority list (compared to some other clinching positions) and means that I am less inclined to hang out in the position for any extended length of time.

 

[drop bear]

As I'm thinking through the mechanics involved, I'm seeing some possibilities for this as a transitional position, as well. I need to find an advanced student in NGA to play with (none of mine are yet).

What it offers is a lot of defences to standing grappling leave you open to knees. Defences to knees leave you open to throws.

So you stop getting blocked anywhere near as much.

 

[drop bear]

Those are good too.



I wouldn't tell someone who is skilled in the plum to throw out the position and never use it in a street fight. I'm just saying that if you use it outside of competition you need to be aware of additional risks which aren't present in the ring. For me, that moves it further down my priority list (compared to some other clinching positions) and means that I am less inclined to hang out in the position for any extended length of time.

Yes. I wouldn't consider it a hang out position. But in S.D. it is kind of a vital entry. (Along with other ideas) because it gives you access to their back and to their limbs.

It saves you trying to grab limbs out of thin air. Or be hanging off a limb with two hands somewhere silly.

Duck under from Thai clinch. (Not really full plumb)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It really does work well as a transitional position to set up a lot of different tools. It's not limited to the techniques that are allowed in Muay Thai matches.

If you're ever in the Lexington area, you're welcome to drop in and visit. I'd love to trade knowledge and ideas.

Happily, Tony. I do make it out that way from time to time, and could easily tack on an extra evening.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Happily, Tony. I do make it out that way from time to time, and could easily tack on an extra evening.

Excellent! Just shoot me a message any time you think you'll be in the area.

 

[Juany118]

Thanks for the information. I always like to read about battles. I've overworked my body so I can read up on these battles while I recover.

If your interested this is actually a good read. Filipino Martial Culture

It isn't a how to book rather a history of FMA. It is a history of the art addressing not simply the evolution of the art based on the influence of migration and conquest from places as far afield (back then) as the Islamic World , Europe and China, on the original Tribal Arts, but the impact of various revolutionary groups, family styles etc. It's an easy read and is on Kindle and other platforms.

 

[Headhunter]

I swear,
Nobody outside of training muay Thai or specific grappling arts can properly deal with this clinch (Both hands on head with elbows digging collarbone). It hurts alot, it immobilises the clinchee, and provides easy takedowns, easy cheesy strikes, and even a standing guillotine. It can neutralise situations or finish them. I believe it's a great self defence move. Thoughts?

You put someone in a clinch and pull their head down to restrain them what target of yours are they closest to? I'll give you a clue if you get hit there you walk funny and talk with a squeaky voice for a few hours

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You put someone in a clinch and pull their head down to restrain them what target of yours are they closest to? I'll give you a clue if you get hit there you walk funny and talk with a squeaky voice for a few hours

It's not nearly that easy to get to a groin shot from there. Is it possible? Yes. But if they truly are controlling your head and have broken your posture, it's a reach.

 

[Juany118]

It's not nearly that easy to get to a groin shot from there. Is it possible? Yes. But if they truly are controlling your head and have broken your posture, it's a reach.

It's also just a lot harder to hit in general from any position as it is so instinctive to protect it.

 

[Headhunter]

It's not nearly that easy to get to a groin shot from there. Is it possible? Yes. But if they truly are controlling your head and have broken your posture, it's a reach.

Hey I've used it a number of times with no issue against full aggressive thugs or just a drunken idiot

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hey I've used it a number of times with no issue against full aggressive thugs or just a drunken idiot

Did they have you in a full Thai clinch?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's also just a lot harder to hit in general from any position as it is so instinctive to protect it.

It is, and it isn't. The times folks think it'd be useful, it's often protected. The times folks feel helpless, the attacker often thinks them so, as well, and isn't focused on protecting his bits. It's certainly not the panacea some have put forth in years past (even in a few fairly recent videos), but it can often be used to break someone's structure simply because they're so busy getting it out of the way so you can't grab or hit it.

 

[Juany118]

It is, and it isn't. The times folks think it'd be useful, it's often protected. The times folks feel helpless, the attacker often thinks them so, as well, and isn't focused on protecting his bits. It's certainly not the panacea some have put forth in years past (even in a few fairly recent videos), but it can often be used to break someone's structure simply because they're so busy getting it out of the way so you can't grab or hit it.

Oh I wasn't trying to say it never works, but it is tough, and I was more speaking of outright damage vs simply disturbing structure. I have, disturbingly, found the most effective method of attacking there is "taught" by Master Ken. You grab and squeeze. I had to do that one night when an idiot who had tackled and was doing a poor excuse for a ground pound on a medic who had arrived first to give him treatment for a head injury. I don't screw around when someone is assaulting a person who may one day save my life so I walked up behind and the suspect and grabbed. Assault stopped rather quickly and I avoided a fight that would have resulted in further collateral damage to the medic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh I wasn't trying to say it never works, but it is tough, and I was more speaking of outright damage vs simply disturbing structure. I have, disturbingly, found the most effective method of attacking there is "taught" by Master Ken. You grab and squeeze. I had to do that one night when an idiot who had tackled and was doing a poor excuse for a ground pound on a medic who had arrived first to give him treatment for a head injury. I don't screw around when someone is assaulting a person who may one day save my life so I walked up behind and the suspect and grabbed. Assault stopped rather quickly and I avoided a fight that would have resulted in further collateral damage to the medic.

Agreed. The attack I most commonly teach for that is the "slap and grab".