From Okinawa to Korea

[Rough Rider]

Also, we have things to learn call “basic one-steps” (I’ve learned 1-7) and “basic kicking” (I learned 1-5 for my white belt and I’ve been shown and am working on 6-12 now). Is this a school-specific thing or a system wide thing?

All of those things will vary from school to school. Whenever we get transfer students at my school, they spend a lot of time learning our one-steps, self-defense techniques, etc.

So, in regards to TKD KKW schools, is Taeguek Il Jang the same in each school? Or are there even variations within the forms?

The forms should be the same. My school has made minor changes to several forms, but I believe that we are the exception, not the rule. This is one aspect of my school that I'm not happy with.

 

[granfire]

The forms should be the same. My school has made minor changes to several forms, but I believe that we are the exception, not the rule. This is one aspect of my school that I'm not happy with.

Nah.
they can vary wildly from organization to organization, and even within the same the instructor's emphasis can make it look like a completely different animal!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

At the school where I train ... They also do only one-steps until black belt, when they start three-steps.

Only one-step sparring until black belt and then three-steps? When do students start actual free sparring at your school?

 

[skribs]

Only one-step sparring until black belt and then three-steps? When do students start actual free sparring at your school?

That sounds like self-defense drills, not rules-based sparring.

 

[auntlisa1103]

Sorry, in my head I was only talking about choreographed sparring. We start free sparring as yellow belts. White belts free spar a little in class, but only by using a black belt as a punching bag, and they’re not tested on it.

It’s also worth noting I can’t find video of our one steps anywhere online, which reinforces for me how school-specific they are. We don’t start hosen sools (I probably spelled that WAY wrong) until yellow either.

 

[andyjeffries]

then it took the megalomaniac of a general to 'unify' it in some shape. And a lot of good that did! LOL

I'm happy giving General Choi credit for the things he did, but I would say that he was probably the least important in the unification effort and the most divisive.

 

[TrueJim]

I'm happy giving General Choi credit for the things he did, but I would say that he was probably the least important in the unification effort and the most divisive.

My initial reaction to this was to ponder: to what extent was unification a response to General Choi? Like, in an alternate timeline, if Choi had never existed, would unification still have occurred? Did the formation of the ITF trigger the other kwan to finally get more serious about consolidation?

After much noodling, looking at timelines, and making diagrams with arrows and stuff, I've convinced myself that that's not the case. Consolidation and unification was seriously underway regardless of Choi. I do think that perhaps without Choi, we'd still be calling the art Soo Bak Do, and it would not have spread around the world so quickly, but unification still would have occurred.

What I'm noodling now is: would the alternate timeline's Soo Bak Do have made it into the Olympics? It seems to me that Choi and his proteges did a lot to promote taekwondo globally -- more-so than anybody -- and global popularity was required to push the sport beyond just an Olympic exhibition sport in Seoul.

So here's my version of an alternate timeline:

• Without Choi, taekwondo is called Soo Bak Do. It's not nearly as popular globally as taekwondo is in our timeline.
• There is still a Kukkiwon in the alternate timeline, and its style is largely the same as what we have in our timeline. With Won Kuk Lee initially running the KTA, Hwang Kee never split to do his own thing, so we see a little bit more Hwang Kee influence in the Kukki style.
• There is still a WTF, but Soo Bak Do never made it into the Olympics, because it was less popular globally. Because Soo Bak Do never made it into the Olympics, there was never a drive toward electronic scoring, so Soo Bak Do sparring style in the alternate timeline is more like old-school taekwondo. "Foot fencing" never materializes.
• K-Pop is still a thing in the alternate timeline, so acrobatic tricking is still part of the taekwondo-dance movement.
• Soo Bak Do is still largely used for daycare programs inside Korea, but less so outside Korea, where karate already had a head-start in this area.

 

[WaterGal]

Fascinating! Thank you for such a thorough response. I’ll need to read more about Tae Kwan Do. I didn’t realize it borrowed from Shotokan.

That's not surprising. It's not something that's widely advertised. Japan occupied Korea for decades, and did a lot to suppress their culture. After WWII and the end of the occupation, the Korean people had to basically reconstruct some aspects of their culture, or just create new stuff entirely. Taekwondo was part of that effort.

There's been an effort by certain people to create this history of Taekwondo where it's based on ancient Korean arts that were secretly passed down by unnamed guys training in secret mountain hideouts. This is almost certainly mostly BS. In reality, there were a bunch of karate schools in Korea during the occupation, and the arts they practiced formed the main foundation of TKD.

I haven’t heard the term “geup” yet. Is that basically the Korean version of “kyu?”

Yes.

By saying Tae Kwan Do teaches not to hit certain targets, it was in regards to sparring. There were no off-limit targets in Shutokan (though we didn’t do full power contact). From people in my old dojo, I had head that Tae Kwan Do does not allow targets that would be very effective in a self defense situation because they want people in a competition to be safe.

In my experience, TKD schools do tend to emphasize techniques that are legal to do in a sparring match. But that doesn't mean they won't teach other things as well (especially when it comes to adult students). That's going to depend on the school.

 

[skribs]

There's been an effort by certain people to create this history of Taekwondo where it's based on ancient Korean arts that were secretly passed down by unnamed guys training in secret mountain hideouts. This is almost certainly mostly BS. In reality, there were a bunch of karate schools in Korea during the occupation, and the arts they practiced formed the main foundation of TKD.

My understanding is that there was some influence from ancient arts in addition to karate.

In my experience, TKD schools do tend to emphasize techniques that are legal to do in a sparring match. But that doesn't mean they won't teach other things as well (especially when it comes to adult students). That's going to depend on the school.

This is a better way of saying what I was trying to say earlier.

 

[TrueJim]

My understanding is that there was some influence from ancient arts in addition to karate.

My personal opinion is that the ancient influence was probably more "inspiration" than actual technique. Like if somebody were to remove all ceramic items and even pottery-making itself from society for 35 years -- and then 35 years later we're allowed to start making pottery again -- we probably wouldn't remember much about the actual techniques of pottery-making, but we might find inspiration in what we remember pots looking like. I think that's about as much as can be said for ancient influences in taekwondo. It does make one wonder though -- what prompted the Koreans to eventually make taekwondo be more "high spinny kicky" than karate -- maybe childhood memories of what martial arts used to look like long ago?

 

[Dirty Dog]

My understanding is that there was some influence from ancient arts in addition to karate.

There is absolutely zero evidence to support this commonly held belief.

 

[daviddz]

So, in regards to TKD KKW schools, is Taeguek Il Jang the same in each school? Or are there even variations within the forms?

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The Kukkiwon publishes the standards for their poomsae so In theory, the Taeguek (and other) KKW poomsae should be all the same. In practice, the forms as taught by different instructors may have some slight variation. Also, over time the “official” versions see subtle changes.

So will the Taeguek forms be the same at every school? No, but they will be recognizable and the variations should be relatively minor.





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[TrueJim]

The Kukkiwon publishes the standards for their poomsae so In theory, the Taeguek (and other) KKW poomsae should be all the same...

If you think about, all they really publish is what the static final position of each movement is supposed to look like. There's a lot of variability in how some schools get from one step to the next!

 

[Dirty Dog]

If you think about, all they really publish is what the static final position of each movement is supposed to look like. There's a lot of variability in how some schools get from one step to the next!

Not so. There are some very good videos that have been officially endorsed by the KKW. I'm thinking specifically of the series done by GM LEE, Kyu Hyung (former president of the KKW) when he was head of the KKW demonstration team. These videos, of course, show the entirety of the movement.

I have a couple apps on my iPhone (and I suspect they're also available for Android devices...) that are endorsed by the KKW and do the same thing. One for the taegeuk forms, and one for the Yudanja forms.

 

[daviddz]

If you think about, all they really publish is what the static final position of each movement is supposed to look like. There's a lot of variability in how some schools get from one step to the next!

Actually, “The Textbook of Taekwondo Poomsae” published by th Kukkiwon includes a DVD with video demonstrations of the poomsae.

Don’t get me wrong, I think the variations are a good thing. I have had several very enlightening conversations with my current instructor about Koryo. How I learned it 25 years ago is not how he teaches it now, or how it is documented in the above named book.



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[andyjeffries]

My initial reaction to this was to ponder: to what extent was unification a response to General Choi? Like, in an alternate timeline, if Choi had never existed, would unification still have occurred? Did the formation of the ITF trigger the other kwan to finally get more serious about consolidation?

I would definitely argue against that point. If for no other reason than that the kwans had already had the 1961 Unification Conference when the ITF was formed in 1966. The KTA had held a unified Dan Test in 1962, which is again way before the ITF was formed.

After much noodling, looking at timelines, and making diagrams with arrows and stuff, I've convinced myself that that's not the case. Consolidation and unification was seriously underway regardless of Choi.

Exactly

I do think that perhaps without Choi, we'd still be calling the art Soo Bak Do, and it would not have spread around the world so quickly, but unification still would have occurred.

I would say without Choi we'd be calling it something else (Soobakdo, Taesoodo, etc), but "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

What I'm noodling now is: would the alternate timeline's Soo Bak Do have made it into the Olympics? It seems to me that Choi and his proteges did a lot to promote taekwondo globally -- more-so than anybody -- and global popularity was required to push the sport beyond just an Olympic exhibition sport in Seoul.

In the absence of Choi though there was enough Taekwondo in Korea that those same people who left Korea to teach Taekwondo would likely still have done it. Maybe he moved up the schedule, but I still think that was the natural course.

 

[Michele123]

I have a couple apps on my iPhone (and I suspect they're also available for Android devices...) that are endorsed by the KKW and do the same thing. One for the taegeuk forms, and one for the Yudanja forms.

Ooh! What apps? Those sound useful!



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[TrueJim]

Not so. There are some very good videos that have been officially endorsed by the KKW...

I agree that these videos are very excellent, but I would argue that these videos prove my point. Specifically, GM Lee often pauses the poomsae in these videos to highlight where each movement is supposed to finish. But you never see him pause the video to show how each movement is supposed to be chambered. Nor does he explain what path the arm is supposed to follow from chamber to finish. This leaves schools free to make up whatever chambers and paths they want.

P.S. I should add that deducing the entirety of the movement is difficult in these and other videos. If the performer doesn't pause to let you see the chamber, the chamber is often a blur.

 

[TrueJim]

Ooh! What apps? Those sound useful!

In my opinion, I don't find the apps very useful. I have a number of these apps on my phone too. Usually the author of the app has merely bundled some very old videos that you can already find on YouTube, and simply put them into an app without any added value. In my opinion, you're better off just using the YouTube app on your phone. This is the series that the school I attend made:

The same videos are highlighted on the taekwondo wiki. Taegeuk Il Jang

 

[TrueJim]

I would definitely argue against that point. If for no other reason than that the kwans had already had the 1961 Unification Conference when the ITF was formed in 1966. The KTA had held a unified Dan Test in 1962, which is again way before the ITF was formed.

I would say without Choi we'd be calling it something else (Soobakdo, Taesoodo, etc), but "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

In the absence of Choi though there was enough Taekwondo in Korea that those same people who left Korea to teach Taekwondo would likely still have done it. Maybe he moved up the schedule, but I still think that was the natural course.

In addition to your excellent points, I believe the palgwae poomsae were also already under development in 1965 (though they weren't completed until 1967) so the start of their development also predates the formation of the ITF. That's more evidence that it'd be difficult to argue that the development of a kukki style was a response to 1966's formation of the ITF.

Here's my pondering on the globalization of taekwondo: To what extent was the Original Masters tour driven by Choi himself? So many of those Original Masters wound-up relocating to other countries where they opened the first taekwondo schools in those countries -- would that have happened without Choi? Or would those Original Masters have largely remained in Korea?

On the other hand, my understanding is that the heavy-handedness of the KTA's consolidation efforts was in part what drove many masters to emigrate from Korea, so maybe you're right: the diaspora of taekwondo might have occurred regardless.