Forms - Why we do them?

[Kung Fu Wang]

I like the idea. My Dad had a similar idea where one person does the first move of the form, and the second person does the first move back and the second move is the counter to the first...and the third move is the counter to the second, and so on. That seems impossibly difficult to choreograph, but I like this idea.

IMO, the best form design is the

- 1st move can be used to set up the 2nd move.
- 2nd move can be used to set up the 3rd move.
- ...
- n-1th can be used to set up the nth move.

For example,

1. roundhouse kick,
2. side kick,
3. spin back fist,
4. hook punch,
5. back fist,
6. uppercut,
7. ...

This way when you train your form, you also train how your opponent may counter you, and how you may counter your opponent's counter.

 

[skribs]

IMO, the best form design is the

- 1st move can be used to set up the 2nd move.
- 2nd move can be used to set up the 3rd move.
- ...
- n-1th can be used to set up the nth move.

For example,

1. roundhouse kick,
2. side kick,
3. spin back fist,
4. hook punch,
5. back fist,
6. uppercut,
7. ...

This way when you train your form, you also train how your opponent may counter you, and how to counter your opponent's counter.

It sounds to me like what you're describing is just a continuously flowing combination. I don't really see how that can be used to set up counters and counter-counters, because as soon as a counter is attempted, it will change the flow of your form.

It's like if you have a river you want to divert, so you plan to put levees and dams at two locations on the river. Once the first levee is built, the river diverts off course, and the site where you planned your next dam is going to dry up anyway. So if you start with roundhouse kick and I grab your leg, a side-kick isn't going to work in the flow. If you attempt a hook punch and I do an outward block, a backfist will be going the other way. If I slip the punch and do an inward trap, you're not going to have the angle to backfist.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea for a form, but I don't think that's the application you could get from a constant stream of offensive techniques.

The form you specify is also devoid of defensive moves. I feel this is important because if you're doing a flow of techniques, how you flow from a block to a strike can be very important. Whether you're talking Taekwondo where you will block with one hand and strike with the other, or something else where you will intercept an attack and follow through to strike your opponent, the flow of defense-to-offense is just as important as one-two combinations.

Now, as to Taekwondo, the forms we do at my school typically have subsets where one move flows into the next, but we also kind of have stops in the middle. So our pattern might be 1-2-3-4, turn, 1-2-3-4, turn, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, kiyhap and pause. Turn, 1-2-3-4...etc. The form I designed for our demonstration team makes significant use of this, where one technique will flow to the other.

For example, double-knife-hand block, side kick, elbow strike. When you side kick, your hand slides out and extends with your leg, and then when you land, you "grab the head" and elbow strike into your open hand. I took great care in setting it up that as you do technique 1, you are chambering or close to chambering for technique 2, and so on. There's even points where the ending move for a set is basically the chamber for the first move of the next set.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't really see how that can be used to set up counters and counter-counters, because as soon as a counter is attempted, it will change the flow of your form.

When you attack, your opponent can

1. step back, or dodge.
2. block.
3. block and counter.

You are correct that it's difficult to predict how your opponent may counter you. In the following sequence, B only dodges and blocks. B doesn't counter. It can be considered that after B's blocking, before B's counter, A already attacks again and put B in defense mode.

- A uses right side kick. B used right downward block to block A's leg to B's right (A's left).
- A Spin to left with back fist. B dodges under it.
- A follows with a right hook. B dodges again.
- A changes hook into back fist. B uses upward block.
- A uses left uppercut ...
- ...

 

[Mark Lynn]

Forms seem to be a part of a lot of traditional martial arts. At my school, they seem to be pretty important, as in, you had better know the forms for your rank. And it is something we do in every class, no matter what else we do.

So, what is it? Is it a teaching tool? Or a way to teach students how to practice by themselves? There might be something to this, as you do need to execute movements and master various stances. And, there are moves in the forms we don't do in sparring, or anywhere else.

So is it vestigial? Put another way, are forms are, in fact, a kind of kinetic history lesson? A way of teaching students not just what practitioners of the art do now, but what they did in the past?

What are your thoughts?

Mrt2
I'll try and be brief since I have class starting soon.

What are forms?
1) It is a teaching tool, or a method of teaching held over from long ago.

2) I do believe it is a history lesson in a sense in that forms probably represented a teachers syllabus, curriculum, or favorite fighting techniques. I believe they were school or style specific that were designed to pass on information about the school/style to the student.

For example some of the old Japanese weapon forms they might be very short just a cut or two; or they might be two man sets with an exchange or two and then a finish but they passed on the techniques and fighting concepts of that school.

As another example; Bassai Dai and Bassai Sho I believe were passed onto someone in the Shotokan lineage. Those kata (the longer verion and the shorter version), could have been that instructor's syllabus. Out of that kata he would teach the techniques he liked to fight with, the concepts for defense etc. etc.

3) Generally they have been modified over time. Some of the Okinawan masters took Chinese empty hand forms and modified them to create forms that represented their teachings as a way to pass things down to their students. From there they taken to Japan, and from Japan to Korea (in the form of TSD, and the Chungi (Blue Cottage forms) patterns); however it also got changed from Okinawa to American soldiers, Japan to American and Europeans, Koreans to American soldiers, and then to the rest of children of the world as the styles spread across the globe.

Examples of these adapted forms would be the five Heian Pinan kata, and the Nahanchi, Tekki, Chulgi kata. Each of these kata as a group the Nahanchi and the Heian were believed to a much longer kata that was broken up to teach students easier (I think by Itosu, Funakoshi's sensei).

Another example would be Wado ryu. Otshuka sensei was a master at Jujitsu or Aikijujitsu before he studied under Funakoshi sensei. He learned the Pinan kata later he changed them to teach more of his footwork principles of body shifting etc. etc. that was influenced by his study of jujitsu/Aikijujitsu.

4) The cataloging of kata; learning a great number of kata I believe is a recent development that started probably with Funokoshi (in Japan) sending people out to learn kata in Okinawa and to bring them back adding them to Shotokan syllabus. Not that someone was to know all of the kata but as a way to preserve the kata before the person who created or maybe taught the kata passed on.

Please forgive any spelling errors I'm typing fast prior to class and don't have time to look up to check if I spell some of the Japanese names correctly I'm going off of memory.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hmmm...you may be talking about me.

I was not, actually.

Do you hold those two as separate? That in terms of purpose in training, forms means NOT fighting, and sparring means fighting?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I like the idea. My Dad had a similar idea where one person does the first move of the form, and the second person does the first move back and the second move is the counter to the first...and the third move is the counter to the second, and so on. That seems impossibly difficult to choreograph, but I like this idea.

I had a kata I was working on for this, but couldn't make it support the principles I wanted to work on. The matching choreography isn't too difficult, as long as you don't try to make it the very next move. Offset segments (like the first half/second half KFW mentioned) is much easier. I was working on one with 4 segments where 1 and 2 went together, as did 3 and 4. For some reason, I thought it would be interesting if there were two possible combinations (1-3 vs 2-4, 1-4 vs 2-3). Someday I might play with that again.

 

[skribs]

I was not, actually.

Do you hold those two as separate? That in terms of purpose in training, forms means NOT fighting, and sparring means fighting?

I don't hold these two completely separate, but I do see the four purposes of martial arts as Wellness (both physical and mental), Expression, Sport, and Combat. I see forms as Expression and fighting as either Sport or Combat, depending on the type.

 

[Dirty Dog]

When I studied TKD, in fact we all had to do things exactly the same. That wasn't all bad, as what we were taught was a good way. When I began studying Hapkido, I was surprised when one day I asked exactly how a move was made. I was told that I was being taught what was thought to be the best way, but that each student had to make a technique work for themselves, so some variation was allowed; if the result was the intended result.

In the various TKD schools I've trained in, forms are expected to be done to the standard, but application is expected to be adapated to the situation.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't hold these two completely separate, but I do see the four purposes of martial arts as Wellness (both physical and mental), Expression, Sport, and Combat. I see forms as Expression and fighting as either Sport or Combat, depending on the type.

Fair enough. I agree that people can have different reasons for training the martial arts, including reasons that are not about fighting. One’s purposes are their own, really.

I simply feel that it is a mistake to make an automatic assumption that if one trains forms, then their reasons for training martial arts do not include developing fighting ability. If the right forms are trained in the right way, then it can be very much about fighting skills.

 

[hoshin1600]

i train for combat. maybe a little for fitness or wellness but my focus is on pure combat. in my opinion the performance i see for most forms do not fit my goals. BUT ..i have a few forms that do and i couldnt live without them. they are a crucial part of my methodology and training.

 

[Headhunter]

I like forms always have done. They're fun to learn and they're a good workout. I don't believe they're necessary but if they're in the system your training you do as your told and you learn them

 

[oftheherd1]

i train for combat. maybe a little for fitness or wellness but my focus is on pure combat. in my opinion the performance i see for most forms do not fit my goals. BUT ..i have a few forms that do and i couldnt live without them. they are a crucial part of my methodology and training.

I agree except I would say I trained for combat use if needed, and made room on my back for fitness and wellness to ride along.

 

[mrt2]

. But practicing forms is one way to keep many practitioners engaged in martial arts practice through ritual and choreography - not everyone wants to jump into the octagon. I think forms are extremely valuable in that they keep many everyday people who are NOT interested in fighting, engaged and interested in working out and mastering their mind and body. Martial arts are definit)ely about fighting, but even if you don't fight, you can do forms and I think that's of great value - after all, martial arts training may be the most effective mind-body training in existence.

i train for combat. maybe a little for fitness or wellness but my focus is on pure combat. in my opinion the performance i see for most forms do not fit my goals. BUT ..i have a few forms that do and i couldnt live without them. they are a crucial part of my methodology and training.

As someone returning to martial arts after a long hiatus, I am still at the stage of preparing my body to do the techniques. and don't know yet how much I will be fighting. My school does do sparring, so there will be that. IDK how much tournament fighting I will be doing, but time will tell, I guess. And I hope to not have to do any street fighting, but I will pay attention to the self defense portion of our curiculum and train as realistically as practicable (which honestly is not really realistic), just in case.

That said, I have no illusions that my TKD training will turn me into a killing machine. At 53, I am probably more concerned with mental and physical health and fitness benefits of MA, with actual fighting a secondary goal. Sort of like when I ride my bicycle, I do it mostly for health and recreation, and only occasionally for transportation.. That said, I still see the value in learning a MA with some practical application, unlike, say, Iaido. (no offense to practitioners of that art, but it wouldn't be for me.)

 

[hoshin1600]

As someone returning to martial arts after a long hiatus, I am still at the stage of preparing my body to do the techniques. and don't know yet how much I will be fighting. My school does do sparring, so there will be that. IDK how much tournament fighting I will be doing, but time will tell, I guess. And I hope to not have to do any street fighting, but I will pay attention to the self defense portion of our curiculum and train as realistically as practicable (which honestly is not really realistic), just in case.

That said, I have no illusions that my TKD training will turn me into a killing machine. At 53, I am probably more concerned with mental and physical health and fitness benefits of MA, with actual fighting a secondary goal. Sort of like when I ride my bicycle, I do it mostly for health and recreation, and only occasionally for transportation.. That said, I still see the value in learning a MA with some practical application, unlike, say, Iaido. (no offense to practitioners of that art, but it wouldn't be for me.)

Dont sell yourself short. im 50, so yes im not getting into a bar fight anymore (hopefully) but real self defense doesnt have an age limit. it only changes the game a bit. for myself i have no interest in sport competition, unless i am sitting on the couch watching it on tv.

 

[Mark Lynn]

In Taekwondo, at least the styles of it I've learned, every detail of every step of the form is scripted. From how you step, what your hands do during the step, the exact stance you will take when you get there, the timing from motion to motion, everything is precise. Now, for a yellow belt, it might not be that exact, but by the time you do the black belt test at my school, there are literally dozens of details with each individual technique that I am looking at.

I believe this really depends upon the school of TKD not the style or system of TKD. Every school will have different emphases and therefore whether or not they hold to a strict way of doing forms really depends upon the school chief instructor more so that it being TKD vs. say Japanese karate.

It really comes to a point in our demonstration team, in which not only must you follow the form, but everyone has to be in sync with each other. If one person does a hip-height side-kick and another does a head-height kick, it looks bad. If the timing isn't exact, it looks bad.

Now, I realize this is a specialized use of the forms, but the training for details and precision applies.

True, but again because you have a demo team that precision being applied across the board to your students forms is a natural out growth. Where as in my school where I have more of a concern with application and teach kids of all abilities and learning challenges, so I give the kids more latitude in the exactness of the form. I know of another school where they tend to emphasize the competitive aspect of the art more so their emphasis is more on sparring and what seems to me to be performance art. Even though our two schools do the same TKD forms.

Interesting. Could you elaborate? I am curious as I come from a TSD background, and now I am learning TKD. I am aware that TSD practices the Pyong Anh forms which, as far as I can tell, look almost identical to forms used in Shotokan Karate.

The founder of TSD actually studied Shotokan for several years before coming back to Korea sometime during the occupation. I believe he earned a 2nd degree (2nd dan) in Shotokan. Now whether or not he learned directly from Funokoshi sensei or another instructor is speculative.

TKD doesn't use those forms, but at least so far as I can tell from my practice and watching higher color belt forms, they look to me like the Pyong Ahn forms, but reworked a bit.

I have no experience practicing any of the Japanese martial arts, so I am curious what you mean by monochromatic.

Gen Choi who created (helped create or whatever) (he was the leader or head of the style of TKD when those forms were created) (I'm refering to the Chungi patterns) in the mid 60's wanted to spread and promote TKD, but they were also dealing with using a foreign art that came from a country that had ruled them for many years. So to distance themselves from that parent art (karate) and from that country (Japan), to help raise their own country's status (in a sense) wanted new forms so they took parts of Japanese kata and mixed them up creating new forms. Some parts of the forms are almost exact in the sequence being removed. Although generally the higher forms (below black belt look less and less like the Heian/Pinan kata that they came from.

One interesting note I heard from someone who was training using the old TSD kata and then made the switch to the Chungi forms as they were being (during the creation time frame) made told me (if I remember right) I think Hwa Rang (mid level brown belt form) was the first form created not Chungi. So the forms weren't created in an order from easiest to hardest but randomly over time.

 

[skribs]

I believe this really depends upon the school of TKD not the style or system of TKD. Every school will have different emphases and therefore whether or not they hold to a strict way of doing forms really depends upon the school chief instructor more so that it being TKD vs. say Japanese karate.

My sample size is small (2 schools) but that's been my experience at both schools. Actually, the school without the demonstration team actually emphasized MORE exactness in regular classes.

True, but again because you have a demo team that precision being applied across the board to your students forms is a natural out growth. Where as in my school where I have more of a concern with application and teach kids of all abilities and learning challenges, so I give the kids more latitude in the exactness of the form. I know of another school where they tend to emphasize the competitive aspect of the art more so their emphasis is more on sparring and what seems to me to be performance art. Even though our two schools do the same TKD forms.

Our school has a demonstration team, a sparring club, and a self defense club, and the regular classes cover elements of all 3.

 

[mrt2]

The founder of TSD actually studied Shotokan for several years before coming back to Korea sometime during the occupation. I believe he earned a 2nd degree (2nd dan) in Shotokan. Now whether or not he learned directly from Funokoshi sensei or another instructor is speculative.


Gen Choi who created (helped create or whatever) (he was the leader or head of the style of TKD when those forms were created) (I'm refering to the Chungi patterns) in the mid 60's wanted to spread and promote TKD, but they were also dealing with using a foreign art that came from a country that had ruled them for many years. So to distance themselves from that parent art (karate) and from that country (Japan), to help raise their own country's status (in a sense) wanted new forms so they took parts of Japanese kata and mixed them up creating new forms. Some parts of the forms are almost exact in the sequence being removed. Although generally the higher forms (below black belt look less and less like the Heian/Pinan kata that they came from.

One interesting note I heard from someone who was training using the old TSD kata and then made the switch to the Chungi forms as they were being (during the creation time frame) made told me (if I remember right) I think Hwa Rang (mid level brown belt form) was the first form created not Chungi. So the forms weren't created in an order from easiest to hardest but randomly over time.

A couple of random thoughts. I am picking up on the TKD forms pretty quickly, and now I know why.

You are probably right as to why General Choi would have wanted to create "new" forms that would de emphasize the Japanese and Okinawan roots of the Pyong Ahn forms. My old TSD master never mentioned it either, and we practiced those forms, along with Bassai in every class.

That said, I am thinking enough time has passed we should be able to talk about this stuff honestly, here at least, if not at the Dojang.

 

[skribs]

A couple of random thoughts. I am picking up on the TKD forms pretty quickly, and now I know why.

You are probably right as to why General Choi would have wanted to create "new" forms that would de emphasize the Japanese and Okinawan roots of the Pyong Ahn forms. My old TSD master never mentioned it either, and we practiced those forms, along with Bassai in every class.

That said, I am thinking enough time has passed we should be able to talk about this stuff honestly, here at least, if not at the Dojang.

Background: There are two basic sets of forms in most Kukkiwon schools, either the Palgwe forms or the Taegeuk forms. You'll also often find simpler Kibon forms in some of the earlier belts. My school, for example, has Kibon 1-5 and then Palgwe 1-8, and then the black belt forms. Our Palgwe forms are different than those I've seen at other schools, but I digress.

The form I made for our demonstration team has a lot of techniques and patterns from Palgwe 4, 5, & 6, a few of the Taegeuks (I don't remember which ones at the moment), and a few of our black belt forms. Our red belts and black belts that join demo team have a fairly easy time with the form, but we had a green belt join (about 8 or 9 years old), and she's been having a tough time because she has only learned up to Palgwe 3 so far. I tried to explain to her it's easier for everyone else because they've done most of the moves already and just need to learn the new order for them.

She saw a blue belt performing Palgwe 4 in class, and glared at me and mouthed "REALLY?"

 

[Buka]

I work in an occupation where, at times, dangerous, violent, people need to be dealt with. You know what helps with this from Martial training? Anything and Everything.

Forms, sparring, grappling, self defense drills, push ups, lifting, whatever. Train hard and have fun doing it. Having fun is key, because if you aren't enjoying it, you won't stay with it long enough for it to matter.

I really don't do forms. But I'm going to go do one right now, think I'll do Sanchin. Gonna' get all nasty with it.

 

[hoshin1600]

I work in an occupation where, at times, dangerous, violent, people need to be dealt with. You know what helps with this from Martial training? Anything and Everything.

Forms, sparring, grappling, self defense drills, push ups, lifting, whatever. Train hard and have fun doing it. Having fun is key, because if you aren't enjoying it, you won't stay with it long enough for it to matter.

I really don't do forms. But I'm going to go do one right now, think I'll do Sanchin. Gonna' get all nasty with it.

Speaking of forms, I seem to remember you were learning a Tai Chi form, am I correct on that?