Forms - Why we do them?

[hoshin1600]

Interesting. Could you elaborate? I am curious as I come from a TSD background, and now I am learning TKD. I am aware that TSD practices the Pyong Anh forms which, as far as I can tell, look almost identical to forms used in Shotokan Karate. TKD doesn't use those forms, but at least so far as I can tell from my practice and watching higher color belt forms, they look to me like the Pyong Ahn forms, but reworked a bit.

I have no experience practicing any of the Japanese martial arts, so I am curious what you mean by monochromatic.

i am hesitant to answer this because it begins to sound like style bashing. but that is not my intent or the way i feel or see things. please understand.

it has to be understood that the lineage of martial art we are talking about moves backward in time going from one culture to another. Korean arts: Japanese karate: Okinawan Tode: Chinese Quan fa: India's various martial arts.
to use an analogy think of a very vivid picture full of details and color. the images are alive and vibrant. photocopy that, then continue to photocopy the photocopy a few hundred times with varying quality copiers and what do you have? in order to compensate for the degradation the image needed to be "corrected" some. over time what was once a soft and fluid contrast between moves has become a ridged and bold line, often robotic.
so i used the term monochromatic to illustrate the lack of vibrancy and variation.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the most common topic here on martialtalk is without a doubt - 'is a given style or technique efficient for fighting?' When it comes to forms, I feel that it's best to think of them as training, not fighting techniques. In the zen martial art I studied - Shim Gum Do, Master Kim comes right out and says that his forms are 'not for fighting' - the goal in that art, being zen buddhist training, is using martial art to bring your mind and body together through action. A familiar form to many is TKD's Chon Ji - it introduces the down block and the high block, how to step and turn, etc - you don't attack someone with it! If you're preparing for the MMA, then you better train in boxing, BJJ, wrestling, etc. - ie - true, effective fighting techniques that you're going to need. But practicing forms is one way to keep many practitioners engaged in martial arts practice through ritual and choreography - not everyone wants to jump into the octagon. I think forms are extremely valuable in that they keep many everyday people who are NOT interested in fighting, engaged and interested in working out and mastering their mind and body. Martial arts are definitely about fighting, but even if you don't fight, you can do forms and I think that's of great value - after all, martial arts training may be the most effective mind-body training in existence.

While this is true, I hold that forms practice, when done correctly, is a very valuable tool in developing combative skills.

 

[Mitlov]

Interesting. Could you elaborate? I am curious as I come from a TSD background, and now I am learning TKD. I am aware that TSD practices the Pyong Anh forms which, as far as I can tell, look almost identical to forms used in Shotokan Karate. TKD doesn't use those forms, but at least so far as I can tell from my practice and watching higher color belt forms, they look to me like the Pyong Ahn forms, but reworked a bit.

I have no experience practicing any of the Japanese martial arts, so I am curious what you mean by monochromatic.

I can't agree with the negative "lack of vibrancy" and "robotic" explanation above, but I do think there is a significant difference in pacing. In Shotokan, forms have varying pacing; there are slow sections, fast sections, snappy sections, smooth sections, etc. In taekwondo, the forms were all performed at a constant pace, in my experience. (I'd say Tang Soo Do is more like Shotokan than TKD in this respect though).

As for the evolution of the forms, Okinawan karate's set of five "Pinan" forms were minorly tweaked to become Shotokan karate's five "Heian" forms. These were then minimally tweaked again to become the "Pyong Ahn" forms of Tang Soo Do. With each of these evolutions, it was less a matter of changing the sequence itself, and more a matter of changing the expectation of what the "right" way to do each motion in the sequence is.

A more significant change occurred when the forms went from TSD to ITF taekwondo. The series of patterns beginning with Chon-Ji, Dan Gun, and Do-San have sequences and subsections that feel like they're ripped out of the Heian forms, but there's no longer a one-to-one correspondence like there is comparing Pinan, Heian, and Pyong Ahn.

Then finally, WTF taekwondo introduced the Taegeuk patterns, which don't appear to resemble the Pinan/Heian forms at all to my eye, and rely heavily on a "walking stance" that was never part of those forms. That's not a criticism, just a note on the history of its respective forms.

And some karate forms have also completely ditched the traditional Okinawan and Japanese forms in favor of something new. Enshin karate, a Kyokushin offshoot, has forms that look like this:

 

[dvcochran]

I actually think both of these are good descriptions. The second description is good for describing those forms that really are just about learning a pattern. There will be some principles (weight shifts and such) that are inherent in the movement, even if the individual moves are disputed. The idea of dribbling through cones is more how I use forms. The idea is to focus on the principles during forms - I'm even okay if a student changes the form a bit, so long as it follows the principles. There are movements I put in for specific reasons, and I want them to follow those movements, but there's a fair amount of room for altering the "freeze frames" (what you'd look like if I made you stop at a specific point) to either personal preference or to accentuate something different. If the forms aren't being done in a group, I'm even okay with students changing angles and directions to work on something different.

IMO, forms are a base for exercise and exploration. Whatever the instructor uses them for, the student can also put them to their own use (or can choose not to bother with them beyond what is required to work with the training system).

I remember some grueling times when my Grand Master would stop class in the middle of a form to go into a long explanation. Great conditioning though. Both physical and mental.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

kata is an excercise in which we practice offensive and defensive technique with an imaginary opponent its a physical power of speed balancetiming coordination and focus its very important in every Martial arts to practice their form specially when you do the bunkai its effective

 

[skribs]

I can't agree with the negative "lack of vibrancy" and "robotic" explanation above, but I do think there is a significant difference in pacing. In Shotokan, forms have varying pacing; there are slow sections, fast sections, snappy sections, smooth sections, etc. In taekwondo, the forms were all performed at a constant pace, in my experience. (I'd say Tang Soo Do is more like Shotokan than TKD in this respect though).

Our beginner TKD forms are performed at a constant pace, but there are different pacings to certain forms as you get into the more advanced belts. Of course, that's relative to our normal pace. To use the music analogy we used earlier, it's not like one is blues and one is metal. It's more like one is Master of Puppets and one is Enter Sandman. But there's still differences in pacing as the forms get more complex.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Posting on the General forum. I saw a similar thread on the Kenpo forum, but figured a lot of folks, myself included aren't familiar with Kenpo, so figured I would open up the topic in the general forum.

Forms seem to be a part of a lot of traditional martial arts. At my school, they seem to be pretty important, as in, you had better know the forms for your rank. And it is something we do in every class, no matter what else we do.

So, what is it? Is it a teaching tool? Or a way to teach students how to practice by themselves? There might be something to this, as you do need to execute movements and master various stances. And, there are moves in the forms we don't do in sparring, or anywhere else.

So is it vestigial? Put another way, are forms are, in fact, a kind of kinetic history lesson? A way of teaching students not just what practitioners of the art do now, but what they did in the past?

What are your thoughts?

Done properly, forms teach the most important part of any martial art - movement. In forms, that means learning various techniques in a particular pattern. And then refining those movements. Ultimately, they should be a tool to learn/practice the principles underlying those movements; the balance, timing, distancing, etc that makes the movement effective as something other than dance.

 

[hoshin1600]

I can't agree with the negative "lack of vibrancy" and "robotic" explanation above, but I do think there is a significant difference in pacing. In Shotokan, forms have varying pacing; there are slow sections, fast sections, snappy sections, smooth sections, etc. In taekwondo, the forms were all performed at a constant pace, in my experience. (I'd say Tang Soo Do is more like Shotokan than TKD in this respect though).

As for the evolution of the forms, Okinawan karate's set of five "Pinan" forms were minorly tweaked to become Shotokan karate's five "Heian" forms. These were then minimally tweaked again to become the "Pyong Ahn" forms of Tang Soo Do. With each of these evolutions, it was less a matter of changing the sequence itself, and more a matter of changing the expectation of what the "right" way to do each motion in the sequence is.

A more significant change occurred when the forms went from TSD to ITF taekwondo. The series of patterns beginning with Chon-Ji, Dan Gun, and Do-San have sequences and subsections that feel like they're ripped out of the Heian forms, but there's no longer a one-to-one correspondence like there is comparing Pinan, Heian, and Pyong Ahn.

Then finally, WTF taekwondo introduced the Taegeuk patterns, which don't appear to resemble the Pinan/Heian forms at all to my eye, and rely heavily on a "walking stance" that was never part of those forms. That's not a criticism, just a note on the history of its respective forms.

And some karate forms have also completely ditched the traditional Okinawan and Japanese forms in favor of something new. Enshin karate, a Kyokushin offshoot, has forms that look like this:

While my description might be viewed as negative, my view point is not. I even stated that prior to my comment.
I do find it ironic that you said you can't agree but then continue to point out how forms were "tweeked" which was exactly my point.
I would also point out that your post seems to be focused on a small selection of a few specific forms. Where my comments were more general, looking more at the macro level of the styles. Especially the differences between Chinese kung fu and the Korean arts. Where it seems you and others are only comparing TKD and TSD to Shotokan.

 

[lianxi]

Actually, I agree with you - I practice solo and do only forms but they teach footwork, balance, coordination, proprioception and much more - all of which help me when I DO use fighting techniques. I think that's why this is such an interesting topic - ie - the efficacy of forms for fighting - I think both views are true.

 

[oftheherd1]

says who?
this is the entire point of my view on forms. in all fairness your the Bach point still stands true because he was a composer not a strict musician.
as a musician i play the drums. i learned how to play by putting on the headphones and listening to Led Zepplin while banging the sticks on the kit. at first horrible and over time better. (better but never really that good) at this point i can say i play like John Bonham (like ...not as good as ) so if i were to play a cars song it would sound like John Bonham playing a cars song.
my brother plays guitar he learned by listening to Dave Matthews. when he writes a song or plays he sounds like Dave Matthews. he even tried to write a song that didnt and played it for his wife for critique,,,her reply was it sounded like Dave Matthews.
so that in the nut shell is the point of forms. you train it until even if your improvising your actions still retain the feel of the forms and the style.

however this purpose breaks down when we are talking about some styles. the Korean styles is one of those. because of the way TKD and TSD were created and evolved there is a disconnect between the inherent feel of the forms and the feel of the style. The Korean version of the Japanese forms are very monochromatic. but then again that "one tone" can be a feel on its own accord. going back to the music analogy it would be like a drum machine. devoid of any variation or human-ness. but modern music has a particular feel exactly because of drum machines and auto tune.

Its worth noting that the Asian method of learning is different then our own. we in western society use the Greek method of learning facts and figures and questioning everything. while the Asian method is to apprentice under a teacher and imitate the teacher and mimic them until there is no perceptible difference between teacher and student. the entire method of learning revolves around imitation. this is what forms do really well. we do not learn that way traditionally so this function tends to be neglected and often forgotten.

When I studied TKD, in fact we all had to do things exactly the same. That wasn't all bad, as what we were taught was a good way. When I began studying Hapkido, I was surprised when one day I asked exactly how a move was made. I was told that I was being taught what was thought to be the best way, but that each student had to make a technique work for themselves, so some variation was allowed; if the result was the intended result.

 

[oftheherd1]

I can't agree with the negative "lack of vibrancy" and "robotic" explanation above, but I do think there is a significant difference in pacing. In Shotokan, forms have varying pacing; there are slow sections, fast sections, snappy sections, smooth sections, etc. In taekwondo, the forms were all performed at a constant pace, in my experience. (I'd say Tang Soo Do is more like Shotokan than TKD in this respect though).

As for the evolution of the forms, Okinawan karate's set of five "Pinan" forms were minorly tweaked to become Shotokan karate's five "Heian" forms. These were then minimally tweaked again to become the "Pyong Ahn" forms of Tang Soo Do. With each of these evolutions, it was less a matter of changing the sequence itself, and more a matter of changing the expectation of what the "right" way to do each motion in the sequence is.

A more significant change occurred when the forms went from TSD to ITF taekwondo. The series of patterns beginning with Chon-Ji, Dan Gun, and Do-San have sequences and subsections that feel like they're ripped out of the Heian forms, but there's no longer a one-to-one correspondence like there is comparing Pinan, Heian, and Pyong Ahn.

Then finally, WTF taekwondo introduced the Taegeuk patterns, which don't appear to resemble the Pinan/Heian forms at all to my eye, and rely heavily on a "walking stance" that was never part of those forms. That's not a criticism, just a note on the history of its respective forms.

And some karate forms have also completely ditched the traditional Okinawan and Japanese forms in favor of something new. Enshin karate, a Kyokushin offshoot, has forms that look like this:

What a beautiful kata. Thanks for the link.

 

[mrt2]

i am hesitant to answer this because it begins to sound like style bashing. but that is not my intent or the way i feel or see things. please understand.

it has to be understood that the lineage of martial art we are talking about moves backward in time going from one culture to another. Korean arts: Japanese karate: Okinawan Tode: Chinese Quan fa: India's various martial arts.
to use an analogy think of a very vivid picture full of details and color. the images are alive and vibrant. photocopy that, then continue to photocopy the photocopy a few hundred times with varying quality copiers and what do you have? in order to compensate for the degradation the image needed to be "corrected" some. over time what was once a soft and fluid contrast between moves has become a ridged and bold line, often robotic.
so i used the term monochromatic to illustrate the lack of vibrancy and variation.

Very informative. Thanks for the explanation. Maybe this is just me, but I would like it if my TSD teachers or my TKD teachers now would offer some of this perspective. I studied TSD for 3 years, but it wasn;t until recently that I discovered that the Pyong Ahn forms were, in fact, the same forms used in Shotokan Karate. And, that tradition of shrouding the forms in mystery continues today, as I am learning Chun Ji, Dan Gun, and Do San. My school's explanation of these forms is all about the supposed meaning of the forms in Korean, so Chun Ji means Heaven and Earth, Dan Gun is named after the founder of Korea in 2333 BC, and Do San is about someone named Ahn Chang Ho. Reading ahead in my student handbook, the explanations of all the forms up to the highest level ones continues with this pattern of obfuscation.

Maybe some more experienced TKD practitioners here can help me out on this. It seems to me it makes more sense to tell practitioners when the form was created, what elements from earlier forms are included in the particular form or series of forms, and why, rather than shrouding this in mystery.

 

[Flying Crane]

Actually, I agree with you - I practice solo and do only forms but they teach footwork, balance, coordination, proprioception and much more - all of which help me when I DO use fighting techniques. I think that's why this is such an interesting topic - ie - the efficacy of forms for fighting - I think both views are true.

I guess what I was really commenting about was my perception that some people tend to group intentions by forms vs sparring. They seem to believe that if you do forms then your training is focused on health and well being and being “artistic”, and not on being able to fight, while if you spar (and often disregard forms) then your purposes are centered around being able to fight. Seems to me that some people automatically make these groupings.

I don’t know that you were saying that, but it sounded a bit like you might have been. So I was simply saying that the grouping that I described above is not accurate, and that forms training, when done correctly, is very useful for combative purposes.

 

[skribs]

I guess what I was really commenting about was my perception that some people tend to group intentions by forms vs sparring. They seem to believe that if you do forms then your training is focused on health and well being and being “artistic”, and not on being able to fight, while if you spar (and often disregard forms) then your purposes are centered around being able to fight. Seems to me that some people automatically make these groupings.

I don’t know that you were saying that, but it sounded a bit like you might have been. So I was simply saying that the grouping that I described above is not accurate, and that forms training, when done correctly, is very useful for combative purposes.

Hmmm...you may be talking about me.

 

[oftheherd1]

Very informative. Thanks for the explanation. Maybe this is just me, but I would like it if my TSD teachers or my TKD teachers now would offer some of this perspective. I studied TSD for 3 years, but it wasn;t until recently that I discovered that the Pyong Ahn forms were, in fact, the same forms used in Shotokan Karate. And, that tradition of shrouding the forms in mystery continues today, as I am learning Chun Ji, Dan Gun, and Do San. My school's explanation of these forms is all about the supposed meaning of the forms in Korean, so Chun Ji means Heaven and Earth, Dan Gun is named after the founder of Korea in 2333 BC, and Do San is about someone named Ahn Chang Ho. Reading ahead in my student handbook, the explanations of all the forms up to the highest level ones continues with this pattern of obfuscation.

Maybe some more experienced TKD practitioners here can help me out on this. It seems to me it makes more sense to tell practitioners when the form was created, what elements from earlier forms are included in the particular form or series of forms, and why, rather than shrouding this in mystery.

Often in the orient, due to the influence of Confucianism, the older something is, the better it is. And always, your own country is always most correctly aligned with the heavens.

Couple that with the short but harsh Japanese occupation of Korea and you aren't likely to see Japan get credit for much of anything

 

[mrt2]

Often in the orient, due to the influence of Confucianism, the older something is, the better it is. And always, your own country is always most correctly aligned with the heavens.

Couple that with the short but harsh Japanese occupation of Korea and you aren't likely to see Japan get credit for much of anything

From what I read, Japan started to invade Korea in the 19th century, annexing it in 1910, and continuing through the Japanese defeat in 1945. Hardly a short occupation. But you make a good point. That said, many of the founders of modern Korean martial arts studied under Japanese masters. Might as well acknowledge the obvious. Nobody really knows how ancient Korean martial arts was practiced because every living practitioner of those arts is dead, and the Japanese banned the practice for 2 generations.

 

[oftheherd1]

From what I read, Japan started to invade Korea in the 19th century, annexing it in 1910, and continuing through the Japanese defeat in 1945. Hardly a short occupation. But you make a good point. That said, many of the founders of modern Korean martial arts studied under Japanese masters. Might as well acknowledge the obvious. Nobody really knows how ancient Korean martial arts was practiced because every living practitioner of those arts is dead, and the Japanese banned the practice for 2 generations.

Well, I guess I was comparing it to the occupation and eventual annexation of Okinawa. I am sure the Japanese intended the same fate for Korea, but due to unfortunate happenstance for them, the Japanese lost WWII.

As to recognition of history of a Korean Art only to ancient Korea, there may be others, but the only one I personally know of to state otherwise, is Hapkido. It acknowledges its beginnings in Dai-Ito Ryu from the time the founder was living in Japan. I can tell you my GM told me that there was an attempt to show a Korean only lineage, but all the GMs knew the origin was from a Korean man who spent many years in Japan, and returned to Korea, bringing his martial arts knowledge with him. There is controversy about his recognition of rank by the Dai-Ito Ryu association, but he obviously knew a lot of the art.

In keeping with what I stated before, Dr. He-Young Kimm, in his first book on Hapkido, related (fabricated?) a lineage of strictly Korean ancestry to the Hwa Rang Do and beyond. Simply not true. I put fabricated in parenthesis since I don't know that he didn't accept that history in good faith from one of his teachers. But he should have been close enough to the founder to know better. I don't know what he may have said in his second book since I don't have it.

 

[Mitlov]

While my description might be viewed as negative, my view point is not. I even stated that prior to my comment.
I do find it ironic that you said you can't agree but then continue to point out how forms were "tweeked" which was exactly my point.
I would also point out that your post seems to be focused on a small selection of a few specific forms. Where my comments were more general, looking more at the macro level of the styles. Especially the differences between Chinese kung fu and the Korean arts. Where it seems you and others are only comparing TKD and TSD to Shotokan.

I agree that the forms evolved as they passed from Okinawan Karate, to Japanese Karate, to Tang Soo Do, to ITF Taekwondo. I disagree that that evolution consists of "degredation" or the elimination of "human-ness" or "vibrancy."

I didn't comment on Kung Fu for two reasons. First, lack of first hand knowledge, unlike Shotokan, TKD, and TSD. Second, to my knowledge, the Pinan forms don't show up there at all, so it doesn't tie into the evolution of those particular forms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the kungfu style I studied, there was an additional element of "catching" which made it a two person form with varying resistance. I haven't seen much in other CMA or non CMA styles, but I understand that karateka use bunkai to work on sections of a form in a partner format.

Some CMA forms were designed in such a way that the 1st half of the form can match the 2nd half of the form. This kind of form design emphasizes on fighting application than basic training, or performance.

Here is one example.

 

[skribs]

Some CMA forms were designed in such a way that the 1st half of the form can match the 2nd half of the form. This kind of form design emphasizes on fighting application than basic training, or performance.

Here is one example.

I like the idea. My Dad had a similar idea where one person does the first move of the form, and the second person does the first move back and the second move is the counter to the first...and the third move is the counter to the second, and so on. That seems impossibly difficult to choreograph, but I like this idea.