Forms: really necessary for combat

[Andrew Green]

Well, the top fighters in the full contact stream of things. Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA... As well as in the grappling based arts, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, Catch, BJJ... All manage just fine without forms. Going over to weapons, fencing seems to manage quite nicely.

In fact, many styles throught history have done quite nicely without using "forms".

Sorry, totally wrong, forms are essential for combat, it is in your form (I am speaking from a WC perspective but also from the perspective of someone who has studied several MA's before WC), that you learn your techniques, you absorb the concepts of fighting and develop your centre of gravity. Of all of those people I have sparred with, the ones with the higher skill level where those who had trained in an MA that contained forms. The most marked aspect of those who I sparred with who did not have a form/s in their MA, was that they lacked a strong sense of structure and had a lower develop center of gravity. (this has been my observation through personal experiance and as such I limit the scope of my reply soley to those experiances)

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, the top fighters in the full contact stream of things. Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA... As well as in the grappling based arts, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, Catch, BJJ... All manage just fine without forms. Going over to weapons, fencing seems to manage quite nicely.

In fact, many styles throught history have done quite nicely without using "forms".

True, there are those who do well without forms. Doesn't mean forms are worthless. There are also those who do well with forms.

 

[Eric Daniel]

Well, the top fighters in the full contact stream of things. Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA... As well as in the grappling based arts, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, Catch, BJJ... All manage just fine without forms. Going over to weapons, fencing seems to manage quite nicely.

In fact, many styles throught history have done quite nicely without using "forms".

Isn't there form when you learn to takedown a person?

 

[FearlessFreep]

I thought Muy Thai had forms?

 

[Flying Crane]

Isn't there form when you learn to takedown a person?

This is a good point. Forms are not necessarily the lengthy sequences of techniques typically done solo that are common to many of the traditional Asian martial arts. Any combination of techniques, long or short, done solo or with a partner, could be considered "Forms". It is the process of practicing the techniques in a somewhat "idealized" format, with the intent of learning/perfecting the physical movement that is "form". For example, a boxer throwing a jab/hook/cross combination over and over to develop the muscle memory is practicing forms. Likewise, practicing takedowns to get the technique right, whether done with a partner, or done alone with visualization, is also the practice of Forms.

 

[arnisador]

I thought Muy Thai had forms?

Well, I don't think those are intended to have combat applications. They're basically an elaborate greeting, I believe.

 

[FearlessFreep]

OK, under the heading of "Everything I know about Muy Thai I learned from whatching Ong-Bak: The Thai Warrior" I thought he was doing some fort of form near the beginning as part of his training

 

[Andrew Green]

True, there are those who do well without forms. Doesn't mean forms are worthless. There are also those who do well with forms.

The Question was are they neccessary. Clearly they are not. That deoes not mean they are worthless, just not neccessary.

 

[bcbernam777]

Well, the top fighters in the full contact stream of things. Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA... As well as in the grappling based arts, Freestyle, Greco-Roman, Catch, BJJ... All manage just fine without forms. Going over to weapons, fencing seems to manage quite nicely.

In fact, many styles throught history have done quite nicely without using "forms".

Like I said I am speaking from personal experiance of facing those who train with forms asn those who do not, and I rely on my personal experiances rather than subjective facts. To say that those arts manage without forms I will concede to but who is to say that perhaps they could have tapped into more potential in their arts through the use of forms, again this is a subjective argument, and hypothetical, besides all of this when we talk about form/s what is it we mean??? a preset format of techniques put together to teach not only technique but more importantly concept, if that definition is acceptable then there are many preset movements that many styles practice without being labelled forms, which could infact be called forms.

 

[arnisador]

OK, under the heading of "Everything I know about Muy Thai I learned from whatching Ong-Bak: The Thai Warrior" I thought he was doing some fort of form near the beginning as part of his training

Is this Ram Muay (?) ceremonial dance, or an actual martial arts form? I know they do a ceremonial form, but I don't know of a martial one.

 

[Andrew Green]

To say that those arts manage without forms I will concede to but who is to say that perhaps they could have tapped into more potential in their arts through the use of forms,

But the other side of that is that maybe those that did could have tapped into more of there potential if they had spent the time doing other things

Until someone sets up a well planned double blind with a large sample base and it gets validated in more like studies, there is nothing but subjective opinions to go on.

All we can say is that good fighters can be trained with or without them, so they are not neccessary. Whether or not they are helpful, neutral or hurtful is a different issue.

 

[bcbernam777]

But the other side of that is that maybe those that did could have tapped into more of there potential if they had spent the time doing other things

Until someone sets up a well planned double blind with a large sample base and it gets validated in more like studies, there is nothing but subjective opinions to go on.

All we can say is that good fighters can be trained with or without them, so they are not neccessary. Whether or not they are helpful, neutral or hurtful is a different issue.

Well in my belief, if you are to have anything that will give you an edge in a fight then I do see it as necessary, so I repectfully disagree with you, but I still feel the love :inlove:

 

[Eric Daniel]

4. What are the good and bad of practicing forms?
The good, new knowledge, body mechanics, etc.
The bad, unrealistic expectations from lack of understanding what kata training is all about.

Why is there a lack of understanding of what kata training is all about? Does anyone know what kata training is all about?


6. Can a form be used in a street confrontation?
A kata can be used in any confrontation as much as a broom can be ......again go back to the unrealistic expectations in the good and bad of learning forms.
Just my 2 cents :idunno:

I believe a broom can be used in a confrontation if you have one in your hand at the time of the confrontation. If you practice things with a staff, can't you use the broom as a staff?

 

[Eric Daniel]

Well in my belief, if you are to have anything that will give you an edge in a fight then I do see it as necessary, so I repectfully disagree with you, but I still feel the love :inlove:

I think that this is a great point. Froms may give you an edge in a fight!

 

[Bigshadow]

I believe a broom can be used in a confrontation if you have one in your hand at the time of the confrontation. If you practice things with a staff, can't you use the broom as a staff?

Plus you can always fly off on it, if the situation gets unbearable. :rofl: j/k of course.

 

[DavidCC]

Isn't there form when you learn to takedown a person?

Most of the forms I have learned - descened from Okinawan forms, mostly - there are many levels of application. At the first layer of the onion a movement is just a strike or block or appears to be just a transation between this and that . But you peel back the onion a little more and there is more meaning there. The Japanese described 4 layers of meaning to a kata, I can't rememebr the Japanese words for them... the first shallowest and most obvious, is bunkai, a word most of us are familiar with.

but anyway, in these okinawan kata there are takedowns and throws in there, but you have to peel the onion a bit to see them, get passed the basic bunkai layer and go deeper.

 

[Flying Crane]

The Question was are they neccessary. Clearly they are not. That deoes not mean they are worthless, just not neccessary.

Not necessarily necessary (heh heh), but one option that can be useful.

 

[Eric Daniel]

Most of the forms I have learned - descened from Okinawan forms, mostly - there are many levels of application. At the first layer of the onion a movement is just a strike or block or appears to be just a transation between this and that . But you peel back the onion a little more and there is more meaning there. The Japanese described 4 layers of meaning to a kata, I can't rememebr the Japanese words for them... the first shallowest and most obvious, is bunkai, a word most of us are familiar with.

but anyway, in these okinawan kata there are takedowns and throws in there, but you have to peel the onion a bit to see them, get passed the basic bunkai layer and go deeper.

That is valid point. I think people have to learn the movements of a form and than look much deeper into the form to learn what the form means.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Most of the forms I have learned - descened from Okinawan forms, mostly - there are many levels of application. At the first layer of the onion a movement is just a strike or block or appears to be just a transation between this and that . But you peel back the onion a little more and there is more meaning there. The Japanese described 4 layers of meaning to a kata, I can't rememebr the Japanese words for them... the first shallowest and most obvious, is bunkai, a word most of us are familiar with.

but anyway, in these okinawan kata there are takedowns and throws in there, but you have to peel the onion a bit to see them, get passed the basic bunkai layer and go deeper.

bunkai does not represent a single layer.....
the term is made by combining 2 characters the first being "bun - 分: relation, degree, dividing, detached"
the 2nd being "kai - 解: to solve, answer, untie, know"

in short, you could say "analysis" or "breakdown"......but the term itself goes much deeper than that.
bunkai is discovering the minute details or the "hidden" movements.

this is the fun part of kata, IMO, but it takes a long time to get familiar with the form at first.

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I don't think forms are absolutely necessary, but nevertheless, I still like them. They keep some of the history of the art in it, they are a good way to take out your anger without hurting someone (this can also be done with a punching bag), and they've helped me with concentration and technique. I think beginners need them, but after you are more advanced you don't need them, but I still like them anyway. I rather like the way my instructor taught.... We did forms 25% of the time and fighting 75% of it. He thought self defense and fighting were more important, but he also wanted to keep the traditions and history alive.

Becky