Forms: really necessary for combat

[MJS]

Hey guy's
Why do we practice forms?

Forms are a pre-arranged set or pattern designed to teach blocks, strikes, kicks, stances, how to block/strike at the same time while moving, etc. The list can go on and on.

Do we have to practice forms for combat?

IMO, understanding what the moves are doing in addition to being able to do the moves is very important. If we stop and think about it, a form is a series of SD techniques. Can a form teach you how to fight? Putting on some gear and sparring is going to give you a better feel for that.

What are the good and dad's of practicing forms?

The list can be endless. You'll find answers to this question in my above replies.

Does everything we do have form?

Not form in the way of a kata, but you do need to have proper 'form' when executing your various moves.

Why does it take many, many years to remember one or two Kata, hyung, forms (However you pronounce your form)?

As I said above...we can do a form and never understand it beyond just moving in a set pattern. The translations are the important part. So, to answer your question...practice, practice, practice!

[quoteCan forms be used in a confrontation on the street?[/QUOTE]

Will the attackers on the street be set up in the same position as they are in the kata? Of course not. Again, they (the kata) are a preset series of moves, SD techniques. It is possible to apply ideas/concepts to a SD situation.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Also, what about grappling. Grappling is an important factor for combat yet I've never seen a grappling art with a form to practice, only techniques.

Grappling meaning grabs, chokes, holds: That is addressed in forms. Again, all the more reason to understand what we're doing in those forms.

Grappling meaning BJJ, Judo, etc.: I have not seen any of these arts go through a 'form' in the sense that we're discussing here. However, they do contain preset drills. For example: running through a pin-flow series can be considered a 'form'. You can run a series of escapes which can be considered a 'form'. A boxer does not have 'forms' but we can look at the various combos that are thrown during focus pad drills. Again, not a form like a pinan, but in a way, its still a form.

Mike

 

[Shaolinwind]

Hey guy's
Why do we practice forms? Do we have to practice forms for combat? What are the good and dad's of practicing forms? Does everything we do have form? Why does it take many, many years to remember one or two Kata, hyung, forms (However you pronounce your form)? Can forms be used in a confrontation on the street?

Because they typically have all the moves we need to know at our current level, absolutely, I don't know what that means, yes, because they are hard, not exactly.

Short answer by me (please note that I am frequently wrong). I'll leave the details to those who know more about martial arts, but for me I feel repeating forms has endless benefit.

 

[Brother John]

Grappling meaning grabs, chokes, holds: That is addressed in forms. Again, all the more reason to understand what we're doing in those forms.
Mike

Mike...
this tid-bit usually blows people away. Especially if all they've ever done is observe the surface of the forms instead of plumb their depths.


Your Brother
John

 

[arnisador]

Grappling meaning BJJ, Judo, etc.: I have not seen any of these arts go through a 'form' in the sense that we're discussing here.

Judo does have two-person forms, but they're not very much emphasized anymore.

 

[arnisador]

It's the same thing whether one studies solo forms, two-person forms (as in Kenpo or one-step sparring from TKD), or isolated techniques. Either you take those ideas from your training and train them effectively, or you don't. There's nothing wrong with solo forms or two-person forms. (A colleague studies an art with some three-person forms.) You either make it live, or not.

Kata can be great. It communicates techniques, builds in responses, and allows for solo practice when a partner isn't available. But you need free-flowing partner training to functionalize it.

 

[kempoguy71]

Form training can mean different things to different people / systems…

As some have already mentioned it could be understood as an encyclopedia / catalogue of techniques; it could be the performance of a specific technique as taught in Japanese swordmanship or traditional jujutsu; and some would even say that forms could represent kinetic chains (see below).

In a Karate context, depending on the system/teacher, the applications of the forms may be “wysiwyg” (what you see is what you get), in other words the translation of the form is based on obvious movement (an upward block is an upward block etc.); while others teach bunkai (applications) of the forms that may not be very obvious when looking at the kata.

I have also been taught that forms were designed as kinetic chains (particularly in Chinese Internal Martial Arts). This would mean that through the practice of forms one learn to become biomechanically more efficient; learn the principles of proper structural alignment and power generation; learning how to regulate your breath and how it relates to the reduction of fear reactivity; as well as the concept of dynamic relaxation.

You could also in some instances say that through the practice of forms you are studying human combative behavior (within its cultural context).

One of my teachers (of a Japanese Budo) used to say that the study of Budo (Martial Ways) and forms / kata is for one primary purpose, what the Japanese calls "Ningen Keisei", character building. And explained the main principle behind “Ningen Keisei” as being: perseverance, i.e. never giving up even when discouraged, and that your training is about unceasing training... How you practice the art rather than what one practices, being the primary purpose of training.


I’d also like to comment on forms training as seen through traditional / classical (Japanese) martial arts to offer a slightly different perspective for this discussion.

Most traditional / classical arts (at least as I understand it) were developed out of principles that were tested in “real” combat (created out of necessity in many instances). They were founded upon revelations experienced during combat/battles and distilled down to find the essence of these conflicts. You could say these systems underwent a process of natural selection (“survival of the fittest” if you will), meaning that arts with flawed operating systems ceased to exist (these practitioners got killed over time).

The arts that made it went through constant refinement over centuries (in many cases) by succeeding generations. They had to distill the principles and philosophies and create a basic operating system in order to simplify transmission. Hence the use of forms…

BTW, this does not mean that these traditional systems aren’t based on sophisticated principles and philosophies. I ask, how can we dismiss these revelations that were taken from real combat experience? Again, some people may argue that combat (or it’s essence) has changed and that the realities of today are different from the realities faced by our ancestors. But I won’t get into that here…

We should remember that their training consisted almost entirely of kata training, whether done solo or with a partner. However, once at an advanced level the teacher would often switch movements of the kata mid-stream when teaching their students. Keep in mind these kata were performed at full speed and intent (often with the use of a bokken / wooden sword), in order to teach their students to switch techniques without thinking. This was sometimes referred to as 'oyo waza'. In any event, I wouldn't hesitate to call these practitioners "martial artists".

I think that the saying “Shu, Ha, Ri” is appropriate when discussing forms within this context. This means to embrace the form, diverge from the form and finally discarding the form. In some ways by adopting the cultural trappings and absorbing the art through the practice of kata you become part of the art with free expression of the combative principles. This is perhaps the fundamental difference between modern and traditional/classical martial arts.


Let me end by saying that I feel the study and understanding of forms as a whole is what separates many of the “traditional” systems from an empty form of pugilism.


Hope this made some sense...

KG

 

[BlackCatBonz]

a kata teaches you the proper "form" for the art you are studying.
lots of systems have an upper block or lower parry....but the way they do that movement is going to be evident in the way that they do it in their own kata.
it is important when learning your forms to imitate as closely as possible the correct way of doing it. doing an upper block correctly contains elements that wouldnt normally be seen on first glance. i think imitation part of learning should take the longest so that the correct form becomes an intrinsic part of the motion.

instead of questioning why at first.....just do. there will be plenty of time later in your training to ask all kinds of questions.
i find it funny that after a few months of training.....new students think they are going to re-invent the wheel and want to come up with all kinds of better ways of doing things.

 

[MJS]

Judo does have two-person forms, but they're not very much emphasized anymore.

Yes Sir, I believe thats correct! I recall a similar discussion on kata in Judo and someone did mention that there was mention of this. I did a search online and came across this.

http://judoinfo.com/katamenu.htm

Not sure if this is what you're referring to, but this is what I found.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Mike...
this tid-bit usually blows people away. Especially if all they've ever done is observe the surface of the forms instead of plumb their depths.


Your Brother
John

Very true John! I'm still amazed as to how many applications are out there. Every time I taught a kata, I always tried to make a point of giving at least 1 explaination/application for the moves.

Mike

 

[Kenpo_man]

They're not supposed to. They're a textbook. Textbooks teach theories & techniques. Application of the textbook theory & technique teaches dynamics.

I sort of know that. In fact, it's pretty clear that it was the point I was trying to make.

Hmm... not my two mans. They'll remove body parts if you miss.

I said no contact except for two mans so I don't see how what you're saying is any different than what I said.

Koryu jujutsu & Judo ...

I didn't know they had kata, that's cool. I guess I was reffering more to grappling on the ground than on stand up grappling. I'm talking about submissions and the positional game, not techniques that include chokes or take downs. I've personally never seen somebody on the ground rolling around by themselves doing a "ground kata". Just because I said that I'll find ten people with an example of one I bet . . .lol.

 

[Kenpo_man]

Hmm... not my two mans. They'll remove body parts if you miss.

Perhaps you were referring to me saying "the rare two man form". The word rare was to illustrate that two man forms themselves are pretty rare when compared to the number of solo forms out there.

You know, every time I'm not extremely clear on here, somebody hears something different than what I meant. I gotta remember that.

 

[Gemini]

You know, every time I'm not extremely clear on here, somebody hears something different than what I meant. I gotta remember that.

Happens to everyone now and again. Don't sweat it. You're the artist drawing the picture. If someone fails to understand your point, just try again. :wink2:

Regards,

 

[Pacificshore]

Hey guy's
Why do we practice forms? Do we have to practice forms for combat? What are the good and dad's of practicing forms? Does everything we do have form? Why does it take many, many years to remember one or two Kata, hyung, forms (However you pronounce your form)? Can forms be used in a confrontation on the street?

1. Why do I practice forms?
Well because I enjoy them and it has been a big part of my years of training. Plus, I've learned so much more about kata as I matured in my training.

2. Do I have to practice forms for combat?
No, I don't think so.....well maybe, sure.

3. Does everything we do have form?
Heck, I hope so!

4. What are the good and bad of practicing forms?
The good, new knowledge, body mechanics, etc.
The bad, unrealistic expectations from lack of understanding what kata training is all about.

5. Why does it take years to learn a form?
Depending on the kata, or how much knowledge your seeking in a kata will determine the length of time you spend on it.

6. Can a form be used in a street confrontation?
A kata can be used in any confrontation as much as a broom can be ......again go back to the unrealistic expectations in the good and bad of learning forms.

Just my 2 cents :idunno:

 

[arnisador]

http://judoinfo.com/katamenu.htm

Not sure if this is what you're referring to, but this is what I found.

Yes, I do think that that's right. They're practiced in series, as a kata, somewhat similar to doing all 12 seitei iaido techniques in a row.

But, often people never learn them at all anymore--even black belts!

 

[arnisador]

Perhaps you were referring to me saying "the rare two man form". The word rare was to illustrate that two man forms themselves are pretty rare when compared to the number of solo forms out there.

I dunno. A person could say that Kenpo has about 150 of them--all very short. It's a matter of perspective, perhaps.

 

[bcbernam777]

Forms are not neccessary for combat.

Not everything martial artists do is done solely for combative value though.

Sorry, totally wrong, forms are essential for combat, it is in your form (I am speaking from a WC perspective but also from the perspective of someone who has studied several MA's before WC), that you learn your techniques, you absorb the concepts of fighting and develop your centre of gravity. Of all of those people I have sparred with, the ones with the higher skill level where those who had trained in an MA that contained forms. The most marked aspect of those who I sparred with who did not have a form/s in their MA, was that they lacked a strong sense of structure and had a lower develop center of gravity. (this has been my observation through personal experiance and as such I limit the scope of my reply soley to those experiances)

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I personally like forms. I know it disagrees with JKD, but I mainly like them for the art and beauty of it. I don't think they'd work well in a fight though. What they do do, however, is help build concentration and help you work on your technique. I also use them as somewhat of a meditation as I block out everything when I do forms.

 

[Eric Daniel]

You've gotten some excellent replies to your questions. I would recommend you re-read them and think about the responses. If you do, I think you'll find your questions were answered. I'm by no means trying to discourage you from asking questions, just take some time to digest what you've already received.

Regards,

Yes but than Others would not be interested. I know what my answers our! I just like to here others opinions.

 

[Eric Daniel]

Forms are fun to do and look nice as some have already said but they do not include even close to enough of the dynamics of combat to properly prepare a person for combat. There are no feints, no contact (except for the rare two person form which, again, lacks feints) and no fear of being hit. Also, what about grappling. Grappling is an important factor for combat yet I've never seen a grappling art with a form to practice, only techniques.

Are you sure there is no form in grappling? Do you do rolls? I am sure there is "form" to rolling you just have to analyze it. When you do or at least first learn a takedown or throw don't you go step by step? That can be a form ( A really strange one but still a form.) I may be going over the edge a little bit but isn't there "form" to everything we do in life? There can be "form" when you are driving, cooking, cleaning etc.