Forms: really necessary for combat

[Eric Daniel]

Hey guy's
Why do we practice forms? Do we have to practice forms for combat? What are the good and dad's of practicing forms? Does everything we do have form? Why does it take many, many years to remember one or two Kata, hyung, forms (However you pronounce your form)? Can forms be used in a confrontation on the street?

 

[FearlessFreep]

*grabs popcorn to watch the show*

 

[Andrew Green]

Forms are not neccessary for combat.

Not everything martial artists do is done solely for combative value though.

 

[Flying Crane]

Forms are an important part of many (not all) martial arts. Mostly, they are still found in the more traditional martial arts, but some of the martial arts with a more competitive approach have distanced themselves from them.

Forms are a way of catalogueing and teaching all (or most) of the techniques found in a martial system. Originally, these techniques were battlefield-tested, were found to be valuable, and were then kept as part of a system. Forms were created as a way of organizing the techniques into a curriculum so that it can be practiced systematically, as well as taught to others systematically.

Not all forms today consist of battlefield-tested techniques. In our modern day, we often do not have the opportunity to exhaustively test our techniques in a real life-or-death situation. Some of the forms that have been created in more recent times, then, may consist of techniques that are less reliable than those that were created in older days. Especially, in my opinion, many of the forms that are created with an eye to modern forms competition, are pretty worthless. That is, they are both pretty, and worthless. Fun to watch, very athletic, but very little of value when it comes to reliable technique.

The older forms were created from techniques that were proven effective, but also took into consideration other elements in one's surroundings. This would include geography, types of clothing worn, weapons used, armor, social norms surrounding combat, etc. Because of this, not everything in the older forms is still effective today. What is important to recognize is whether or not your forms are alive, or dead. A living form has techniques that are still useful. A dead form has techniques that are either no longer useful due to societal changes, or are simply flashy but useless, meant for modern competition.

In my opinion, the practice of living forms is very important, as it enables one to practice the complete system. But forms practice alone is not enough. One must drill the application of the techniques with training partners, so that the meaning and usefulness of the form is fully understood. In addition, some type of meaningful contact sparring is also important to develop the skills needed to deal with an unpredictable and changing situation.

The practice of forms should not be done as an end in an of itself. The goal should not be to give a beautiful performance, but rather to develop the techniques that are found in the form. It is also important to understand that the combinations of techniques that are found in a form are only one way to apply the techniques, and are not the only way. Once one has developed their technique, the application can be done in many different ways.

In short, once again in my opinion, forms practice done correctly is a very important part of training in many martial arts. It is not the only important part of training, however.

michael

 

[clfsean]

*grabs popcorn to watch the show*

**mooching popcorn & taking Alleve in preparation for the headache to follow this thread**

 

[TonyM.]

forms forms forms forms, forms forms forms forms, forms! wonderful forms!

 

[arnisador]

It's a choice of how one trains and how one transmits an art. Some arts use them, some don't. Both ways can work.

 

[Flying Crane]

.

 

[searcher]

??????????????? *would like to mooch popcorn and alleve, but it is all gone*

 

[Brother John]

Hey guy's
Why do we practice forms? Do we have to practice forms for combat? What are the good and dad's of practicing forms? Does everything we do have form? Why does it take many, many years to remember one or two Kata, hyung, forms (However you pronounce your form)? Can forms be used in a confrontation on the street?

Why do I practice forms?
Better question, why do you? ASK your instructor! GROW in your art before you begin to worry toooooo much about WHY certain things are done as they are.....because before you have a solid foundation at the beginning, then you don't have a very good perspective or basis for comparison.

Does everything we do have form?
Strange question.
Can you do something, physically, that DOESN'T have "Form"??
Taking years to remember just a couple of forms???
ODD!!!!
Your last question, can forms be used in a confrontation....?

MOST ODD.
Of course they can't. They aren't a "way of fighting" but something to help prepare you to fight.




Your Brother
John

 

[Eric Daniel]

Your last question, can forms be used in a confrontation....?
MOST ODD.
Of course they can't. They aren't a "way of fighting" but something to help prepare you to fight.
Your BrotherJohn

How do you know that forms are not a "way of fighting"? Are you sure forms can't be used in a confrontation?

 

[Gemini]

How do you know that forms are not a "way of fighting"? Are you sure forms can't be used in a confrontation?

You've gotten some excellent replies to your questions. I would recommend you re-read them and think about the responses. If you do, I think you'll find your questions were answered. I'm by no means trying to discourage you from asking questions, just take some time to digest what you've already received.

Regards,

 

[Kenpo_man]

Forms are fun to do and look nice as some have already said but they do not include even close to enough of the dynamics of combat to properly prepare a person for combat. There are no feints, no contact (except for the rare two person form which, again, lacks feints) and no fear of being hit. Also, what about grappling. Grappling is an important factor for combat yet I've never seen a grappling art with a form to practice, only techniques.

(I remember when this question would have started an argument but everyone here seems to see forms in a more realistic sense. Has martial arts evolved enough to actually question old traditions??? wow!!!)

 

[clfsean]

Forms are fun to do and look nice as some have already said but they do not include even close to enough of the dynamics of combat to properly prepare a person for combat.

They're not supposed to. They're a textbook. Textbooks teach theories & techniques. Application of the textbook theory & technique teaches dynamics.

There are no feints, no contact (except for the rare two person form which, again, lacks feints) and no fear of being hit.

Hmm... not my two mans. They'll remove body parts if you miss.

Also, what about grappling. Grappling is an important factor for combat yet I've never seen a grappling art with a form to practice, only techniques.

Koryu jujutsu & Judo ...

(I remember when this question would have started an argument but everyone here seems to see forms in a more realistic sense. Has martial arts evolved enough to actually question old traditions??? wow!!!)

Nah... I don't question, I just examine. Most people who question haven't examined yet or don't understand what they did find & see.

 

[FearlessFreep]

As a musician, I like to think of it as "forms are to martial arts what scales are to jazz" Playing scales ianot playing jazz, but the basic theory and muscle motion used in scales are a building block to playing jazz and howmuch you learn from scales and how you apply them and go inside them to learn from them will effect what you get out of them and how you apply them to your playing. Forms are not the MA or even how to do the MA but they contain the fundamental building blocks of the MA and what you get out of them depends on what you look for in them and how you approach them and how you use them.

 

[DavidCC]

In kids' class last week we were talking about what to do if confronted by a group of attackers (correct answer: run!) and one littel guy, who is very thoughtful for 6 years old, had this to say:


Instructor: "What should you do if 5 of those mean kids who hang out behind the school start to threaten you"
Ian: "Well, if they were all in the right spots, you could do Pinan One"

the hardest thing I did that day was not fall down laughing :boing1: :boing1:

 

[mantis]

as long as you know the principles..

 

[tradrockrat]

Hey! Who ate all the popcorn?


I'm putting this in quotes so there is no mistaking that the words ARE NOT MINE, but just something I heard a long time ago, and I thought it might be nice to hear what you all have to say on it:

Martial - 1. of soldiers and war: characteristic of or suitable for soldiers, the military life, or war

There are three levels of martial activity:

Martial Combat
Martial Sport
Martial Art

To confuse one with the other is to miss the point entirely. A martial art has at its heart the esthetic of motion. Yes it is based on Martial Combat, and yes it is honed through Martial Sport, but to think that martial arts is for self defense is to demean it. Martial arts is an ART! If you want to defend yourself, take self defense courses. Forms and other "useless" aspects of M A's are actually what makes martial arts an Art. They are where the esthetic resides. Perfection of motion - that is art. Does a right cross have to be "perfect" to work? Of course not. If it's thrown well, and connects, it will do the job -- but a perfect right cross is art. Everything in its place. You don't hire DaVinci to paint your shutters, you don't use forms in the street. At the same time, you don't hire "Bubba's House Painters" to do The Last Supper.

 

[Brother John]

How do you know that forms are not a "way of fighting"? Are you sure forms can't be used in a confrontation?

huh??

Forms as a "Way of fighting"...???
You mean....that some attacker is going to stick to the routine?? That he knows what to do next and will do so from the proper angle and at the proper time??

I really don't understand what you are getting at.




Look....
Forms contain a lot of information, techniques, principles....etc. etc. If you really study these things and work on the "QUALITIES" that forms work entails... then your ability to fight will grow. They aren't "How to fight" lessons persay.... more like preparation.
Flow, good form, precision, continuity of action, smooth transitions, balance, speed, power, focus.......................the list goes on.

What the form Teaches IS important, but what the forms really do for us is not so much add to the Quantity of what we do, but accelerate the Quality of how we do it!!!!

Something to think about.




Your Brother (hope you understand)
John

 

[BlackCatBonz]

As a musician, I like to think of it as "forms are to martial arts what scales are to jazz" Playing scales ianot playing jazz, but the basic theory and muscle motion used in scales are a building block to playing jazz and howmuch you learn from scales and how you apply them and go inside them to learn from them will effect what you get out of them and how you apply them to your playing. Forms are not the MA or even how to do the MA but they contain the fundamental building blocks of the MA and what you get out of them depends on what you look for in them and how you approach them and how you use them.

amen, brother!

as to forms not containing anything about throwing or grappling.....ever seen pinan shodan?

the first 4 movements are a cornucopia of throwing and joint locks.