Forms in Hapkido

[Wey]

My friend from South Korea (25) said that there should not be forms in Hapkido and that those that implement forms are not teaching true hapkido. Personally I am not a fan of forms/katas but the two Hapkido teachers I have found teach forms, so I just have to suck it up and do them.

My question to you is, does your Hapkido school teach forms, and how do you feel about it?

 

[zDom]

.

My question to you is, does your Hapkido school teach forms, and how do you feel about it?

No forms in MSK HKD.

My instructor despises forms.

I liked them in TKD; figure we have waaaaay to much to work on in HKD to try to squeeze them into the curriculum.

 

[dortiz]

Nope!

Its not how we move and learn. I can do air wrist locks all day long but that tells me nothing in real life. Its all feel.

I am just guessing but here is my take. There never were forms in Hapkido or its parent art. I "believe" that some early teachers also studied other arts that were form based and thus when they came over and had that prior way of learning they assumed it should continue. But it is a inserted concept.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The only forms in the Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu are those found in Kenjutsu. Since Hapkido is a direct child of Akijujutsu, I would presume the founder was not taught anything other than sword kata.

But I would not go so far as to say adding forms means you're not teaching Hapkido. Tradition is important. But perfection has yet to be attained by any human. That being true, it is important to remain open to change, even (especially?) in our arts.

 

[dortiz]

I sort of agree. Where I use caution is that a lot of this art requires a constant working of technique with various types to develop any understanding of application.
Therefore 1 man forms are not a great vehicle to teach it. I am open to a good teacher creating two man sets that use Form and the Feel approach to enhance a curriculum.
That makes sense.

Dave O.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Solo forms tend to work best for striking and movement. As hapkido has a very impressive array of strikes, once could certainly use forms as a means of teaching them, though I do not feel that adding forms would enhance the teaching of strikes in hapkido personally. Some guys just like forms.

One area where I feel that forms would be handy (though not necessary) would be in teaching children, who are generally not physically ready for the grapples and such in hapkido, but certainly can learn the strikes. Forms would offer children something to work on at home that doesn't require throwing around their little brother or sister.

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

Again my problem is strikes are part of Hapkido but not all. We kick because of distance, we punch because of distance, elbow, knee, headbutt etc but continue to a controlling or ending that requires hands on.
It would be a half effective form.

That bugs me.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Again my problem is strikes are part of Hapkido but not all. We kick because of distance, we punch because of distance, elbow, knee, headbutt etc but continue to a controlling or ending that requires hands on.
It would be a half effective form.

That bugs me.

Ah, I think I see the problem.
Strikes are part of Tae Kwon Do, but not all.
Strikes are part of Aikido, but not all.
Strikes are part of (insert art here) but not all.
The error is assuming that ANY art is fully covered by forms.
Forms are a tool that makes teaching certain material to large groups easier. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[dortiz]

Somehow we are having two different discussions.

Let me back up. I have practiced TKD as well as Hapkido for over 20 years. I love my TKD forms and they serve a great teaching purpose. They did help me transition in sparring better so I am a big fan. I have done and am doing Karate under Sensai McCarthy to learn Kata and its Bunkai. So again, a really big fan and I yes it has great purpose.

Now back to this discussion. Hapkidos 3 main principles are Water, Harmony (Non Resistance) and Circles. These principles are all about enveloping and redirecting and interacting.

I say distance in that the entire idea behind the strikes is to close the distance or distract in order to get to where I want to be. They are the set up so to speak.

In TKD or Karate I am transitioning from strikes or sweeps but practicing that flow. Now in Hapkido for the feel and where the technique works you are just missing 2/3 of what you need if you are moving around with air.

80% of learning Hapkido is when your hands are on someone or they are on you and both are learning where that magic place of balance or pain truly exist.

This is why in HAPKIDO I cant imagine forms but even in that am willing to look at something and see if it works. Like a said a two man set may prove interesting.

Cheers,

Dave O.

 

[Wey]

I like the discussion... keep it going.
Thanks for everyone's input as well.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In TKD or Karate I am transitioning from strikes or sweeps but practicing that flow. Now in Hapkido for the feel and where the technique works you are just missing 2/3 of what you need if you are moving around with air.

80% of learning Hapkido is when your hands are on someone or they are on you and both are learning where that magic place of balance or pain truly exist.

This is why in HAPKIDO I cant imagine forms but even in that am willing to look at something and see if it works. Like a said a two man set may prove interesting.

If someone were to use solo forms as a teaching method in hapkido, it would have to be as a supplement to the 80%. Thus forms could be used and may even be handy with kids, but really, they are not needed, either for adults or kids.

The danger in adding solo forms is that the emphasis of the class would shift from that 80% to people trying to get their forms down (something that has happened in plenty of TKD schools).

We do not use forms in our hapkido program and that is as it should be in my opinion. However, I would not go so far as to say that if someone uses forms that they are somehow no longer doing hapkido.

Daniel

 

[Ozowen]

Quoth Daniel Sullivan

Some guys just like forms.

Sounds like me.
Forms are a useful part of training. Some are just a means to teach/ practice strikes, blocks and kicks.
Some are more complex and contain more complex techniques.
Some also encapsulate strategy with the strikes etc being more illusion or secondary to the true use of the form.
Some also emphasise body movement and teach different sorts of flow and shifts.
If, like me, you are a long way from your club, then forms can be a useful way to continue your training. They are hardly anything like complete training, but in many ways, a forms curriculum can represent "complete training."

OTOH, the points about forms not being native to Hapkido are important. Inherent to the assumptions underpinning this argument is the insistence that change is not good.
Certainly change for its own sake isn't good. But if forms bring added value to training then why not bring them in? If they don't then leave them out. Each system and school is entitled to their own choices here.
Perhaps a useful approach is to make note in the teaching process, that the forms are not original or native to the system?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

One other thought about forms is a school that teaches either HKD with a TKD flavor or TKD with an HKD flavor would be more likely to want to incorporate them.

I wonder if the hapkido schools that do use forms grew out of taekwondo with hapkido added on and simply changed their name along the way because they felt that there was more HKD than TKD.

Daniel

 

[Ozowen]

Good point Daniel. My hapkido school has a lot of Kempo influences (the Master is a 4th Dan Kempo as well). The system reflects this and the patterns are all kempo. In fact, a task I have been given is to develop a softer aspect (due to my involvement with taiji, Judo and other softer sytems).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you don't mind my asking, how much crossover in terms of technique and approach is there between kempo and hapkido? Not at all familiar with kempo (I assume that there is more than one style).

Daniel

 

[Ozowen]

Quite a bit, but I'd better explain things a little.
When I was full time training with Master Hughes the club was a Freestyle Hapkido system and had a lot of elements from TKD in it. But at that time the system was drifting to the softer elements of Hapkido. I moved a long way away and he began training with Kempo. I return to train with him only occasionally. (I live in a small town with only three clubs. I train with all of them but I am a member of only the Moo Duk Kwan). There is no Hapkido and I have no interest in running one. Master Hughes wants me to but my work allows for no such commitment.
So, while I am away and have almost no contact for a few years (six) he really trains into the Kempo and when we resume contact the system has become very hard, there are mostly Kempo kata and there is an increase in emphasis on the Kempo percussion type strikes (sounds like a tautology- but these striking systems seem to be particular to Kempo. Ive encountered similar stuff in some Kung Fu styles but not identical).
There is less flowing with the opponent than before and a greater emphasis on strength than on leverage.
I have been working therefore to generate a different curriculum to recapture the flow aspects of the system. (The sword stuff was a sideline which I may have given up on.).
I have been clear with him re this. I am not really a fan of the Kempo influence. It seems to have become over riding. It has drawn out the other harder aspects of the style and is making it become more like a TKD/ Kempo system with lots of throws, locks and holds- and a few extra kicks.
Perhaps if there was some influence- the percussion stuff is pretty good at trapping range and once an opponent has been downed. But thgge wholesale hardening of Hapkido doesn't suit me.

 

[FearlessFreep]

One other thought about forms is a school that teaches either HKD with a TKD flavor or TKD with an HKD flavor would be more likely to want to incorporate them.

I wonder if the hapkido schools that do use forms grew out of taekwondo with hapkido added on and simply changed their name along the way because they felt that there was more HKD than TKD.

Daniel

Actually, my instructor is a sixth dan in Hapkido and a mid-ranked Dan in Tae Kwon Do (I think 4th or 5th) and he can't stand forms.

Or rather he says they have their place but not within how we train. I'm ambivalent. They are a training tool and can be used or misused, depending.

 

[Haakon]

The Hapkido school I train at teaches forms, but they aren't heavily emphasized. There is a form for every other level, hand techniques, grappling, rolling, throwing etc is always taught. We certainly don't do forms at every class, like I did in TKD.

With all of the kicks and strikes in Hapkido I can see the benefit of forms but in my opinion it must be taught in conjunction with hands on training for the rest of the art. Also in my opinion I don't think Hapkido really needs forms to be taught effectively, but I don't mind doing them.