For those of you who want to learn how to fight outside of sport:

[GreenieMeanie]

No named system. We didn't even call it 'combatives' back then (79-85), just lethal/non-lethal force. When I was in Okinawa, we trained with Angi Uezu, but it wasn't Isshinryu exactly. More like excerpts from the Bubishi. Before I was sent overseas, it was grappling style takedowns, boxing, joint manipulation, PR-24 Prosecuter training, mace and handcuff techniques, firearm training with the Colt 1911A1 using a variety of shoot/don't shoot threats and various grips, breaks, and holds (weak hand, upside down, weapon 'slippery' to simulate blood, etc). I learned a lot of what would be called 'come along' holds and what my later Isshinryu training calls Tuite from the so-called "Secret Scrolls of Kumite." Oh, also chokes of various kinds. I still remember the first time I got choked out in training and did the chicken.

It sounds like you trained straight from the source, instead of a dude with a competition track record. Were you ever trained, to search for restraint escape tools?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It sounds like you trained straight from the source, instead of a dude with a competition track record. Were you ever trained, to search for restraint escape tools?

I'm not sure what you mean by that, so I guess probably not. We carried hand irons and flex cuffs. I always carried a Peerless cuff key and a cutter for removing flex cuffs. I never trained to get out of a restraint, but then again, no one ever put me in one. I got tossed around a few times, including in front of Cheap Trick at a concert, but I still took that body builder Marine down and hogtied him.

I don't know what you'd call what we were trained. It was mostly 'don't get your butt kicked' I guess. I never got shot but I had to disarm a few Jarheads and I got stabbed in the back with a bayonet while I was applying hand irons to another moron in the desert. I still made the apprehension and then clocked mister stabby as well.

I'm an old man now. I had my day, and a good day it was.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I'm not sure what you mean by that, so I guess probably not. We carried hand irons and flex cuffs. I always carried a Peerless cuff key and a cutter for removing flex cuffs. I never trained to get out of a restraint, but then again, no one ever put me in one. I got tossed around a few times, including in front of Cheap Trick at a concert, but I still took that body builder Marine down and hogtied him.

I don't know what you'd call what we were trained. It was mostly 'don't get your butt kicked' I guess. I never got shot but I had to disarm a few Jarheads and I got stabbed in the back with a bayonet while I was applying hand irons to another moron in the desert. I still made the apprehension and then clocked mister stabby as well.

I'm an old man now. I had my day, and a good day it was.

If we were in the same vicinity, I'd buy you a drink to learn more.

Restraint escape tools--hidden cuff keys, friction cord, shims, and hook tools. Hand irons have a totally different design from S&W, and thus require different tools.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If we were in the same vicinity, I'd buy you a drink to learn more.

Restraint escape tools--hidden cuff keys, friction cord, shims, and hook tools--stuff you'd typically hide sewn into your boxers to get out cuffs. Hand irons have a totally different design from S&W, and thus require different tools.

We used the term hand irons interchangeably with handcuffs. We carried S&W or Peerless. All cuff keys the same. I always had at least one in the sweat band of my cover, and one inside my duty belt. Didn't have any of that other stuff you mentioned.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

We used the term hand irons interchangeably with handcuffs. We carried S&W or Peerless. All cuff keys the same. I always had at least one in the sweat band of my cover, and one inside my duty belt. Didn't have any of that other stuff you mentioned.

I meant--were you trained to look for it? But I understand the answer is no.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I meant--were you trained to look for it? But I understand the answer is no.

That would be no. Our training was much more direct and basic. I'm not sure there was much strategy or planning to it. "Try not to get hit much" was about it.

 

[Buka]

I still hide a hidden cuff key on my person at all times. I don't even know why, just something I've done forever. I can get out of handcuffs so fast it's rather humorous.

 

[drop bear]

I still hide a hidden cuff key on my person at all times. I don't even know why, just something I've done forever. I can get out of handcuffs so fast it's rather humorous.

Your car key would probably make more sense.

 

[Alan0354]

Your car key would probably make more sense.

I always have a pepper spray in my pant's pocket on top of carrying my cane.

 

[Buka]

Your car key would probably make more sense.

Always have one of them, too.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's not that simple.

Rory Miller, a household name in the realm of self-defense and combatives, trained a specific form of medieval Jujitsu (don't remember the name). It was developed to address Samurai being in the clinch on the battlefield. It happened to be perfect for his needs dealing with criminals.

Traditional martial arts are useful, but quality instructors can be a lot harder to find, and some them were developed as a response to specific tactical and cultural problems at a given point in history, which are no longer relevant. HEMA for example, can be quite fascinating academically, but the nature of how violence is applied has changed to the point, that much of it is no longer useful. As another example, not all FMA or Silat is useful to people living in Western countries, given as it was developed with heavier blades in mind--while most of us are carrying pocket knives, criminals use hard objects filed to a point or low-quality ditch knives, and soldiers use them as a quick stabby backup if they lose control of their rifle.

Criminals use the same things everyone else uses. Humans use the same elbows, knees, knuckles, etc that other humans use. Those elements haven’t evolved much in form as much as they have in usage. I wonder what country you live in? Not many folks using filed random objects outside of prison in the U.S.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I always have a pepper spray in my pant's pocket on top of carrying my cane.

This may be the best SD weapon that you can have on your waist. It's 100% legal. You can use it as a whip, or you use use it as a metal fist.

 

[Alan0354]

This may be the best SD weapon that you can have on your waist. It's 100% legal. You can use it as a whip, or you use use it as a metal fist.

View attachment 28696

Ha ha!! That is LOUD looking!!! I want my stuffs to be very low profile, not attracting any attention. Besides, I don't know how to use it, might hit me back. Must need a lot of practice to use it. Practicing with the cane keeps me busy enough already.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Criminals use the same things everyone else uses. Humans use the same elbows, knees, knuckles, etc that other humans use. Those elements haven’t evolved much in form as much as they have in usage. I wonder what country you live in? Not many folks using filed random objects outside of prison in the U.S.

I was speaking to the evolution of how edged weapons are applied at the end of that post, and how that’s changed what is useful from weapon based systems.

That is correct, that those elements haven’t changed much—but the practical knowledge of fighting isn’t as ubiquitous as when the traditional systems were developed. You really have to invest in seeking it out if you want it. It took me a long time to acquire the knowledge I have now, let alone know it exists. The sport fighting community is more spectated than it is engaged in, and the practical fighting community is smaller still. The vast majority of people don’t know how to fight sport. The military doesn’t have much of a need for it either.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

This may be the best SD weapon that you can have on your waist. It's 100% legal. You can use it as a whip, or you use use it as a metal fist.

View attachment 28696

That looks like way too much work to implement XD.

 

[drop bear]

I was speaking to the evolution of how edged weapons are applied at the end of that post, and how that’s changed what is useful from weapon based systems.

That is correct, that those elements haven’t changed much—but the practical knowledge of fighting isn’t as ubiquitous as when the traditional systems were developed. You really have to invest in seeking it out if you want it. It took me a long time to acquire the knowledge I have now, let alone know it exists. The sport fighting community is more spectated than it is engaged in, and the practical fighting community is smaller still. The vast majority of people don’t know how to fight sport. The military doesn’t have much of a need for it either.

The military is mostly doing sport these days.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

The military is mostly doing sport these days.

They do some BJJ, a little kickboxing, and a little knife, but they’re not investing in making them skilled fighters. Some units get more comprehensive training. Their training revolves around restraining prisoners and maintaining control of their weapon systems. We’ve covered this topic in this thread.

 

[drop bear]

They do some BJJ, a little kickboxing, and a little knife, but they’re not investing in making them skilled fighters. Some units get more comprehensive training. Their training revolves around restraining prisoners and maintaining control of their weapon systems. We’ve covered this topic in this thread.

So what systems did you discuss? Like which militaries and which programs?


Found it I think.

"To my knowledge, the quality and comprehensiveness of military combatives training varies considerably from unit to unit. Even at the "mythical" SOF level, people's training is mission-specific, no ninja ****. The most they do is BJJ to restrain people, some knife work in the event they lose control of their rifle, and muzzle thumps. According to the marines I've spoken to, MCMAP is neither especially useful, nor taken seriously."

I think the military and sport fighting is considerably more integrated these days.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

So what systems did you discuss? Like which militaries and which programs?

Your responses on this page, would indicate you've already gone through the relevant pages on this thread.

Which begs the question--if you're looking to start a debate, for the sake of starting a debate? If so, I have no interest.

 

[drop bear]

Your responses on this page, would indicate you've already gone through the relevant pages on this thread.

Which begs the question--if you're looking to start a debate, for the sake of starting a debate? If so, I have no interest.

Good. Because I would gate for you to have any useful information on the current state of military combatives training.


But for everyone else.

This seems to be much closer to the state of play these days.

Combined with a much greater influx of really good practitioners. Like flying in UFC fighters and the like.