For those of you who want to learn how to fight outside of sport:

[Alan0354]

That does not surprise me. RBSD is kind of a niche, insider community, with a lot of lesser quality copycats to sift through.

I don't know what you mean by reality based self defense. I mainly talk about MMA and the few on the first list. I don't know anything on the other ones you listed. Muy Thai, Wrestling etc are very popular, MMA is popular, we have a UFC gym just 5 mins away. Those are legitimate stuffs.

More importantly, people need to look at the class to see how they train first. I did before I settled with the TKD school at the time. Bruce Lee was big back in 1984, I found a school that is really kickboxing more so than traditional TKD, I like that they put a lot of time hitting bags and sparring, very little forms. Not all school of the same style the same. My teacher even periodically invite a JJ master to teach us. That's way ahead of the time back in 1984.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I don't know what you mean by reality based self defense. I mainly talk about MMA and the few on the first list. I don't know anything on the other ones you listed. Muy Thai, Wrestling etc are very popular, MMA is popular, we have a UFC gym just 5 mins away. Those are legitimate stuffs.

More importantly, people need to look at the class to see how they train first. I did before I settled with the TKD school at the time. Bruce Lee was big back in 1984, I found a school that is really kickboxing more so than traditional TKD, I like that they put a lot of time hitting bags and sparring, very little forms. Not all school of the same style the same. My teacher even periodically invite a JJ master to teach us. That's way ahead of the time back in 1984.

RBSD—as in you take the basics from the MMAs, and add some modifications to deal with people that have intent, means, and opportunity to seriously injure or kill you.

For example, much of boxing is directly transferable to using a knife in forward standard grip, but the targets are different.

It’s difficult to find quality instructors for this, because you can’t learn it in the ring. Many of the people or brands on the list, have distance learning options that you can make use of, if you already have interested training partners from your local MMA gym.

 

[Alan0354]

RBSD—as in you take the basics from the MMAs, and add some modifications to deal with people that have intent, means, and opportunity to seriously injure or kill you.

For example, much of boxing is directly transferable to using a knife in forward standard grip, but the targets are different.

It’s difficult to find quality instructors for this, because you can’t learn it in the ring. Many of the people or brands on the list, have distance learning options that you can make use of, if you already have interested training partners from your local MMA gym.

I am just talking here. As for me, for self defense, I carry a cane everywhere I go. I am at the age that it's normal to carry a cane. I practice stick fight for a year and half on my own. I first started with escrima, but I felt single hand using a rattan cane is too light after watching a video of competition. The two guys just wack each other stupid from beginning to end. Sure, they wear protective stuffs, BUT still, all the fancy fast strikes had no stopping power. I since changed to two hands using a 20oz Nylon cane. A cane is better than bare hand or even short knife. Hitting with a 20oz cane is a different story, I can hear the difference from the sound when I practice hitting the heavy bag.

I don't practice fancy moves, for striking, I only practice 4 strikes, to the head from left or right, to the knee from left or right. Mainly practice using body, shoulder and arm to generate power. Then I practice poking and mix kicks in with the cane strike. Simple stuff only. I don't have a partner, so I don't even practice blocking because it's useless to go through the motion by myself. You need a partner to practice. So I just concentrate to hit fast, hit hard and get out of the way!!! Also spending half the practice on hitting the heavy bags. I believe in Less is More. the simpler and more straight forward is the best way. Shortest distance from A to B is the straight line from A to B!!

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I am just talking here. As for me, for self defense, I carry a cane everywhere I go. I am at the age that it's normal to carry a cane. I practice stick fight for a year and half on my own. I first started with escrima, but I felt single hand using a rattan cane is too light after watching a video of competition. The two guys just wack each other stupid from beginning to end. Sure, they wear protective stuffs, BUT still, all the fancy fast strikes had no stopping power. I since changed to two hands using a 20oz Nylon cane. A cane is better than bare hand or even short knife. Hitting with a 20oz cane is a different story, I can hear the difference from the sound when I practice hitting the heavy bag.

I don't practice fancy moves, for striking, I only practice 4 strikes, to the head from left or right, to the knee from left or right. Mainly practice using body, shoulder and arm to generate power. Then I practice poking and mix kicks in with the cane strike. Simple stuff only. I don't have a partner, so I don't even practice blocking because it's useless to go through the motion by myself. You need a partner to practice. So I just concentrate to hit fast, hit hard and get out of the way!!! Also spending half the practice on hitting the heavy bags. I believe in Less is More. the simpler and more straight forward is the best way. Shortest distance from A to B is the straight line from A to B!!

There seem to be instructors who specialize in cane fighting. When you do stick in combatives, they teach you basic angles to attack hands, arms, and knees. A cane is basically a nonlethal hybrid of spear and baton, without the heft, and so similar mechanics apply.

As Doug Marcaida once said during a taped seminar bit--if you're in a prolonged fight with lengthy blunt weapons, that's a problem. It should be a quick parry, followed by a hard strike.

 

[BrendanF]

It's not that simple.

Rory Miller, a household name in the realm of self-defense and combatives, trained a specific form of medieval Jujitsu (don't remember the name). It was developed to address Samurai being in the clinch on the battlefield. It happened to be perfect for his needs dealing with criminals.

Traditional martial arts are useful, but quality instructors can be a lot harder to find, and some them were developed as a response to specific tactical and cultural problems at a given point in history, which are no longer relevant. HEMA for example, can be quite fascinating academically, but the nature of how violence is applied has changed to the point, that much of it is no longer useful. As another example, not all FMA or Silat is useful to people living in Western countries, given as it was developed with heavier blades in mind--while most of us are carrying pocket knives, criminals use hard objects filed to a point or low-quality ditch knives, and soldiers use them as a quick stabby backup if they lose control of their rifle.

Sosuishi ryu. We also train old school Kodokan Judo alongside the koryu jujutsu stuff though - it makes for a good combination.

 

[frank raud]

Knife fighting and edged weapons (careful with "defanging" and "biomechanical cutting", these methods assume a heavy sharp edged knife or larger)



c) Martial Blade Concepts

Martial Blade Concepts is firmly based on "biomechanical cutting" and does not assume a heavy knife or a larger knife.

 

[frank raud]

Curious why you recommend Shivworks for clinch work with a gun (not disagreeing with you), but not for knifework. It's not like the company name gives a clue.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Martial Blade Concepts is firmly based on "biomechanical cutting" and does not assume a heavy knife or a larger knife.

It is part of the curriculum, but I have yet to come across an instructor who thinks this method is universally reliable, given the blades people tend to carry.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Curious why you recommend Shivworks for clinch work with a gun (not disagreeing with you), but not for knifework. It's not like the company name gives a clue.

Because it's been easier for me to find their gun resources.

 

[Alan0354]

There seem to be instructors who specialize in cane fighting. When you do stick in combatives, they teach you basic angles to attack hands, arms, and knees. A cane is basically a nonlethal hybrid of spear and baton, without the heft, and so similar mechanics apply.

As Doug Marcaida once said during a taped seminar bit--if you're in a prolonged fight with lengthy blunt weapons, that's a problem. It should be a quick parry, followed by a hard strike.

I have been searching on youtube, I can't find anything I like in two hand stick. I don't like Tapado, but that's about it. If you have any link, please give it to me. Thanks

Yes, I like Doug in Forge In Fire.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I have been searching on youtube, I can't find anything I like in two hand stick. I don't like Tapado, but that's about it. If you have any link, please give it to me. Thanks

Yes, I like Doug in Forge In Fire.

It's covered in Clint Emerson's Deadly SKills Combat Edition--Joe Robaina.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I joined the Marine Corps and became a Military Policeman. I learned how to fight outside of sport. LOL.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I joined the Marine Corps and became a Military Policeman. I learned how to fight outside of sport. LOL.

As a Marine MP you were likely in confrontations with spirited, toughened, and combat trained people. How much did (or would have) your karate training come into play (aside from your advanced MP CQC)?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I joined the Marine Corps and became a Military Policeman. I learned how to fight outside of sport. LOL.

To my knowledge, the quality and comprehensiveness of military combatives training varies considerably from unit to unit. Even at the "mythical" SOF level, people's training is mission-specific, no ninja ****. The most they do is BJJ to restrain people, some knife work in the event they lose control of their rifle, and muzzle thumps. According to the marines I've spoken to, MCMAP is neither especially useful, nor taken seriously.

 

[Alan0354]

To my knowledge, the quality and comprehensiveness of military combatives training varies considerably from unit to unit. Even at the "mythical" SOF level, people's training is mission-specific, no ninja ****. The most they do is BJJ to restrain people, plus some knife work in the event they lose control of their rifle. According to the marines I've spoken to, MCMAP is neither especially useful, nor taken seriously.

It's not necessary just training on fighting skill, it's the overall conditioning that is important too. Things like running, weight training might not directly relate to fighting, but the conditioning can really give an edge to the fighting skill. I personally think weight training is particular important as part of MA training.

Just look at those in UFC, their muscles are very well defined and buff. It sure not from just fighting. They train hard on both weights and aerobics.

 

[Cynik75]

Codification and organization of learning resources--there is no "message"

The very first time in history of internet.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

It's not necessary just training on fighting skill, it's the overall conditioning that is important too. Things like running, weight training might not directly relate to fighting, but the conditioning can really give an edge to the fighting skill. I personally think weight training is particular important as part of MA training.

Yes--just military aren't necessarily that well trained in MA. If you go hand to hand with someone--that would mean your gun was out of the picture, your buddy wasn't there to double team in restraining, your baton is gone, your taser is gone, and your spray is gone. A lot has to go wrong, for you to be solo, fighting hand to hand, against someone as an armed member of a team.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

To my knowledge, the quality and comprehensiveness of military combatives training varies considerably from unit to unit. Even at the "mythical" SOF level, people's training is mission-specific, no ninja ****. The most they do is BJJ to restrain people, some knife work in the event they lose control of their rifle, and muzzle thumps. According to the marines I've spoken to, MCMAP is neither especially useful, nor taken seriously.

MCMAP wasn't taught in my day, and in any case, it's intended for Infantry. I was an MP. We trained to use less-than-lethal and lethal force to subdue attackers and pressure-tested it by kicking Marine's butts, or getting ours kicked instead. Sometimes some of each. I fought daily.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

MCMAP wasn't taught in my day, and in any case, it's intended for Infantry. I was an MP. We trained to use less-than-lethal and lethal force to subdue attackers and pressure-tested it by kicking Marine's butts, or getting ours kicked instead. Sometimes some of each. I fought daily.

What systems did your program emphasize?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What systems did your program emphasize?

No named system. We didn't even call it 'combatives' back then (79-85), just lethal/non-lethal force. When I was in Okinawa, we trained with Angi Uezu, but it wasn't Isshinryu exactly. More like excerpts from the Bubishi. Before I was sent overseas, it was grappling style takedowns, boxing, joint manipulation, PR-24 Prosecuter training, mace and handcuff techniques, firearm training with the Colt 1911A1 using a variety of shoot/don't shoot threats and various grips, breaks, and holds (weak hand, upside down, weapon 'slippery' to simulate blood, etc). I learned a lot of what would be called 'come along' holds and what my later Isshinryu training calls Tuite from the so-called "Secret Scrolls of Kumite." Oh, also chokes of various kinds. I still remember the first time I got choked out in training and did the chicken.