FMA MCDOJO now i have seen it all
- Thread starter moromoro
- Start date
Hmm, 8th Grade? not sure I can go back that far. I cannot eat like that anymore
Maybe as in College, then I could at least think about dating a 21 year old young lady.
Well, that would not be the first time we have shared mroe than one beer . :asian:
What He said
Yes I would like to get the answers from the organizer. If he was not ready to have the issue discussed, ten it should not have been mentioned.
Unless, he was trying to get public feedback, without asking for it?
Still waiting for answers
:asian:
What was the promotion schedule that was published? Was it 1 level every 3 years or something, up to 9th?
Given that several of the individuals were last promoted by Remy in the late 80's, early 90's, and Remy didn't die until 2001, why weren't there higher ranks then?
I heard of one individual who recieved a 2nd degree, then a few weeks later got a 3rd. About a year later this person is now a 5th.
My opinion is that crap like this simply makes rank worthless. I feel that one should stand and test for their rank, not recieve it 'automatically' for time in. After all, you may goto school for 4 years and bet a BS, but you dont get your masters 4 years later. You need to pass some tests and meet some requirements..right? I dont have to just hang out at the school for another 2-4 years for my doctorate, I have to fufill some requirements right?
If I want a high rank, I think I'll work at it, bust my hump and prove I got what it takes. Otherwise, I got a decent inkjet printer and can bump myself up fine on my own, no need to spend a few hundred bucks for some 'ego strokin'.
If I want the other Arnis groups to reconize my rank, I'll figure out their curiculums n test for it. Freebies or 'paid paperwork' just is so much wall candy to me.
Just my 2 cents.
:asian:
Given that several of the individuals were last promoted by Remy in the late 80's, early 90's, and Remy didn't die until 2001, why weren't there higher ranks then?
I heard of one individual who recieved a 2nd degree, then a few weeks later got a 3rd. About a year later this person is now a 5th.
My opinion is that crap like this simply makes rank worthless. I feel that one should stand and test for their rank, not recieve it 'automatically' for time in. After all, you may goto school for 4 years and bet a BS, but you dont get your masters 4 years later. You need to pass some tests and meet some requirements..right? I dont have to just hang out at the school for another 2-4 years for my doctorate, I have to fufill some requirements right?
If I want a high rank, I think I'll work at it, bust my hump and prove I got what it takes. Otherwise, I got a decent inkjet printer and can bump myself up fine on my own, no need to spend a few hundred bucks for some 'ego strokin'.
If I want the other Arnis groups to reconize my rank, I'll figure out their curiculums n test for it. Freebies or 'paid paperwork' just is so much wall candy to me.
Just my 2 cents.
:asian:
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Kaith,
Chill a little bit. I understand about the "trampoline rank promotions" and I don't like them either. The promotion shcedule was published in RP's first book in English. You can find it there. Why he didn't promote anyone higher in the US is a question that will never be answered. As to anyone recognizing anyone else's rank (in Modern Arnis in present time), acknowledgement maybe, recognition I don't think so.
Jerome,
It's time for you to get online for a brief dissertation on the subject of promotions at the Symposium.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
Chill a little bit. I understand about the "trampoline rank promotions" and I don't like them either. The promotion shcedule was published in RP's first book in English. You can find it there. Why he didn't promote anyone higher in the US is a question that will never be answered. As to anyone recognizing anyone else's rank (in Modern Arnis in present time), acknowledgement maybe, recognition I don't think so.
Jerome,
It's time for you to get online for a brief dissertation on the subject of promotions at the Symposium.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
Dan,
I live in Buffalo, the weathers been unseasonally cold since last October, I can do nothing -but- chill.
I'll shut up now.
:asian:
I live in Buffalo, the weathers been unseasonally cold since last October, I can do nothing -but- chill.
I'll shut up now.
:asian:
Ya got me. Would explain a lot though. Spend 4 years in class, taking tests. Over the next few years ya send in money, and they send you degrees and titles.
Oh wait... were we talking college or martial arts promotions? :rofl:
Oh wait... were we talking college or martial arts promotions? :rofl:
In traditional eskrima there was/ is no rank only the knowledge and skills that where passed on the empitimy was to be known as a MAAYO ESKRIMADOR. SOME ONE WHO HAS FACED CHALLENGES AND SURVIVED, SOMEONE NOT SCARED AND READY TO TAKE ON ANYBODY ANYTIME FOR A TEST OF ABILITY. THIS IS ESKRIMA.......
No rank, no belts, no dans, no ********.
Heres the funny thing about what people are saying, they keep saying rank doesnt matter but yet they keep chasing these ranks, and sometimes resulting in juniors of the art giving the ranks to their seniors.......
If rank does not matter to you why do this??????????????
the answer is the fact it is now commercial.
no longer about quality and only about having the biggest organisations, the biggest number of students and the most worldwide teaching trips on their passport.
this is not what eskrima is about, this never was eskrima.
RANK DOES NOT MATTER IT IS ABOUT SKILL............ BUT PEOPLE MISTAKE SKILL FOR THE BIGGEST CLASSES AND THE FRONT PAGE MAGAZINE ADS AND THE FANCY WEBSITES. THIS IS WRONG.
yes this happend a lot in the past and still is happening alot today. you see there is no problem with calling yourself a master as long as you are prepared to take on the consequenses of such a titile and that is to never back out of a challenge.
thanks
terry
No rank, no belts, no dans, no ********.
Heres the funny thing about what people are saying, they keep saying rank doesnt matter but yet they keep chasing these ranks, and sometimes resulting in juniors of the art giving the ranks to their seniors.......
If rank does not matter to you why do this??????????????
the answer is the fact it is now commercial.
no longer about quality and only about having the biggest organisations, the biggest number of students and the most worldwide teaching trips on their passport.
this is not what eskrima is about, this never was eskrima.
RANK DOES NOT MATTER IT IS ABOUT SKILL............ BUT PEOPLE MISTAKE SKILL FOR THE BIGGEST CLASSES AND THE FRONT PAGE MAGAZINE ADS AND THE FANCY WEBSITES. THIS IS WRONG.
yes this happend a lot in the past and still is happening alot today. you see there is no problem with calling yourself a master as long as you are prepared to take on the consequenses of such a titile and that is to never back out of a challenge.
thanks
terry
D
DoctorB
Guest
Bloodwood, since you do not yet know how the testing and promotions - if any - will be handled why are you asking these questions now? And speaking of questions. Why would you expect me to answer a complex set of your quetions when you can not and have not answered a simple question of mine regarding "exactly how was Norshadow out of line?"
I wrote the following comments about the promotions/testing board:
My solution to this promotional problem for at least the short term is to develop promotional boards made up of Senior Masters, Datus, MoTTs and System Chief Instructors, for the express purpose of promoting people who are qualifed. That is what I am working on for the Modern Arnis Symposium in Buffalo this coming July. Most of the Senior people attending are in favor of doing that and I will be making the final announcement on the plan next week.
Such a board will preclude any need for students to get involved in the promotion of their individual instructors. Appearence and substance are of equal importance when promotions are being considered and made.
Skill is the best indicator of rank, however it would be entirely ridiculous to believe that all promotions in Modern Arnis under the late professor Presas were only and always skill based. That is part of the reason that I first proposed to host the Symposium. There was a lot of talking, sniping and broad claims being made. The Symposium is one way to find out who in fact has the skills to back up the claims of rank and title.
It will be interesting to me to see how many people take a pro-active position and how many just continue to snipe. How many instructors will attend and encourage their students to do the same thing? The Symposium is a learning opportunity, but some people will choose to avoid attending because what they might see and experience could be diffenent from their expectations and biases.
+ + + + + + + + + ++ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
I have not excluded any person or group, nor have I infered, indicated or stated that the Symposium Board would or could be the only one to exist for this purpose, did I?
Come to the Symposium, participate and then make your comments. You and everyone else with the exception of Dan Anderson who have commented on the board idea, DO NOT have enough information to make an INFORMED judgement.
Those people who are attending, who have paid their deposits or the full sum and the instructors presenting are the only people that I will listen to between now and July 14. These people have a vested interest in the event and it's outcome, the rest of you have nothing to offer except noise.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
So what you're saying people and systems like the following:
Remy Presas - Modern Arnis
Ernesto Presas - Kombatan
Canete Family - Doce Pares
Presas Kids - MARPPIO
Are sell outs because they do a belt system. Of course we know that there are more FMAs that use a ranking system.
Not sell outs but they realise that they can change the teaching to accomodate more pupils.
look, eskrima does not take long to become proficient in its mainly in principles and fighting.
but these instructors
Remy Presas - Modern Arnis
Ernesto Presas - Kombatan
Canete Family - Doce Pares
where NEVER EVER EVER EVER taught in these ranking systems in the FMA..................................
WHAT DIDNT TAKE THEM LONG TO UNDERSTAND AND LEARN WILL NOW TAKE THEM YEARS AND YEARS TO TEACH.......E.G HOW MANY 10TH DANS DO YOU SEE WALKING AROUND IN THOSE SYSTEMS...
see what they teach is good (some very good) but the ranking structure is there also to keep things away from students......
and also to keep the students comming back for more (thats where the money thing comes out)
gm Caballero was known to do this teach alot of useless stuff (stuff that he did and does not use in combat) and create levels to make students keep comming back...
Same with many other masters..
look, eskrima does not take long to become proficient in its mainly in principles and fighting.
but these instructors
Remy Presas - Modern Arnis
Ernesto Presas - Kombatan
Canete Family - Doce Pares
where NEVER EVER EVER EVER taught in these ranking systems in the FMA..................................
WHAT DIDNT TAKE THEM LONG TO UNDERSTAND AND LEARN WILL NOW TAKE THEM YEARS AND YEARS TO TEACH.......E.G HOW MANY 10TH DANS DO YOU SEE WALKING AROUND IN THOSE SYSTEMS...
see what they teach is good (some very good) but the ranking structure is there also to keep things away from students......
and also to keep the students comming back for more (thats where the money thing comes out)
gm Caballero was known to do this teach alot of useless stuff (stuff that he did and does not use in combat) and create levels to make students keep comming back...
Same with many other masters..
D
DoctorB
Guest
With all due respect to you my friend because we have had some face to face conversations I have to disagree with your position.
First and foremost, the decision to acknowledge and recognize any persons paper ranking is a matter of personal preference.
The IMAFs, Marppio and WMAA are at loggerheads over who is best representing and preserving the art as taught be Remy Presas, why are you asking such a nonsense question? The answer is fairly obvious to all, when none of the above have necessarily accepted ranks given out by the late Professor. There is also the small matter of monetary motive.
None of the people who will be sitting on the testing/promotions board at the Symposium are so ego-driven that we will assert and promise that others will accept our recommendations with regard to rank - it is after all is said and done, just another sheet of paper. BUT, part of the problem in Modern Arnis right now is that too many individuals, regardless of group affiliation are not ready to work in a cooperative manner. Just look at the lack of cooperation and endorsement of the Symposium as just one example.
Are you going to attend the Symposium? If not why not? It is being held in your city. One of the featured instructors is your instructor and system president. There are numerous people on the program whom you have never worked with or trainied under for even one hour in your life. It would be greast to have you attend and compare for yourself.
That is the crux of the problem isn't it? For some people it seems that everything is focused on what Remy did and said before he died. Does that mean that life stops and nothing can change? In my case the answer is a resounding NO! There is most certinly life after Remy and the Symposium is just ONE WAY of making connectioins with other people and other ideas within a very large field of action under the name Modern Arnis.
Has it ever occured to you and others who want to deny differences that "a", "b" and "c" could all be right. That what works for me might work for you if you do it EXACTLY as I have done it. But if you are allowed and encouraged to modify the technique to suit your own body and skill level that you can make this technique work as effectively as I can make the "orignal" work for me!
I remember Remy telling us to "Make it for yourself!" He says the samething on his 1986 video series, several times. That statement is the spiritual driver for the Symposium. Let's see how some people have made the art for themselves. Cloning at my schools is not an option for consideration.
Since you are writing about "Having trained with many kenpoist", I am left with ther impression that you have not studied kenpo as a seperate art. I am only going by what you have written. Since I was at the Gathering of Eagles in 2001, I can tell you that a great deal of the differences are perpetuated by students and low ranking blackbelt holders. The Seniors and Grand Masters at the event were quite supportive of one another. GM Bill Chun, Jr., showed us the "hard" and "soft" variations of the very same techniques and he was applauded and assisted by Seniors and GMs from other kenpo organizations. The decision to accept or reject is personal not systemic.
It is damn near impossible to have a 'certificate mill' at a ONE TIME EVENT! The board will be together for one and possibly two days. There are no plans to keep the board alive beyond July 13, 2003. You and your siupporters are grasping at straws because YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY credible information about the board and its operational philosophy. Why not wait until you have information from me, before you jump up and get critical?
Now that you have put Ms. McManus's name forward in the same pharagraph that you mention that some people "...haven't been promoted in a heck of a long time." Why did you go running head long into a discussion without first having the facts? The testing/promotions board is intended to address precisely that latter problem that you have mentioned above. How many levels, if any will be people be bumped? I do not know. There is no one in line to be tested as of today AND the board would have to decide that on a case by case basis - IF it were necessary. I will not rule out a couple of levels jump, but I would also be VERY surprised if the board members would be inclined to go more than ONE STEP UP. The McManus promotion did not sit well with any of us.
Since you have mentioned Ms. McManus and by inference Delaney and the IMAF, why would you fail to mention Tim Hartman being promoted by his students. Outside of the WMAA, that raised more than a few eyebrows. I know, in May the signatures of Dr. Gyi and GM Jornales were added to the document and announced. But that was an AFTER THE FACT occurence wasn't it? I have suggested that it would have been better if the two GMs concurrece could have been announced at the time the promotion was made public. One high ranking WMAA offical sent me a private message acknowledging that there was an error in timing and perhaps waiting until the May Camp in Buffalo would have been a better idea. I agree with him.
In addition I would suggest that you check the thread opened by Dieter on rank advancement in November 2002 and read my post where I stated that I am opposed to students promoting their instructors. That post was written months BEFORE the WMAA Advisory Board took it's action. My position on this matter has nothing to do with Tim Hartman as an individual. It is both a philosophical and organizational issue with me.
We do not allow students to determine teacher tenure and pay raises in public or private schools, why would the martial arts be any different? The deed is done. But lets also look at who sent in the congratulation posts after the promotion was announced - primarily members of the club - WMAA members and friends of Tim's. To take the position that these posts constitute an impartial and objective endorsement by Tim's peers is both foolish and myopic.
If people test before the Symposium Board, their instructors will not be sitting on the board for the test. The testing/promotions board at the Symposium is interested in giving an objective measure of martial skills.
BTW, I will give you and others one piece of information about the testing - it will only be open to people who have attained a Lakan or higher ratining in Modern Arnis.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
R
Rocky
Guest
Yes and Remy never backed down from anyone!!!
Rocky
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Dan,
I live in Buffalo, the weathers been unseasonally cold since last October, I can do nothing -but- chill.
:asian:
Well stated! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Dan
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Terry,
You surface but you don't write me even after several requests.
1. Look up in a dictionary and learn the differences between the words traditional and modern. Traditional eskrima is different than modern arnis.
2. I never said that rank doesn't matter so don't lump me in with this tirade. Rank, if done right, is and indicator of skill. Ranking comes in many different ways. I know in traditional eskrima there is an in-house pecking order, i.e. who is the top student, second top student and so forth so to get into this frothing tirade against rank is double talk and disingenuous (look that one up as well). Do I chase it? No. I never asked for any ranking I received in Modern Arnis and it was awarded to me by the founder.
3. That's your opinion obviously based on bias. You haven't seen all the schools and all the instructors so you are making a broad based generality of a statement.
4. Same as #3 but even more ignorant of the facts.
5. Absolutely correct. My current instructor, Manong Ted Buot, made sure I understood that with him there are no ranks, no certificates, no nothing of this sort. He teaches traditional eskrima.
6. If that is what rank is all about then I'd agree with you but that is not what rank is all about. It may and has degenerated to that at times but to say all ranking in FMA is that is to insult some of the abve named practitioners of FMA (the Presas brothers and the Canete family).
Terry, get in touch.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
Terry-
you sound like a broken record. You said your peace and others have said thiers. I think we can ALL agree to disagree. I think it's time to let it go.
Tim Hartman
you sound like a broken record. You said your peace and others have said thiers. I think we can ALL agree to disagree. I think it's time to let it go.
Tim Hartman
R
Rocky
Guest
Ok I am about to catch hell again I can FEEEEL it ! If you don't like to hear the truth ( some of it negative about Remy) close your eyes or leave the room, I'l wait.......tick, tock tick tock..... ok everyone that lives in fantasyland gone??? Ok boy's and girls lets sharpen up those pencils and take notes!
In 1982 there were approximately 50 of us in the U.S ranked blackbelt or higher. The highest rank was Robert Demott 6th degree blackbelt, not a very talented Eskrimador but a great organizer, hence the high rank!!! In 1982 Remy held his first camp in WV. I went down about 5 days early and helped Jeff Arnold and his crew from Flint Michigan get the camp (formerly owned by Elvis) ready for Remy. Jeff at the time was Remy's golden boy and one of the higher ranking people in his stable 3rd Degree Blackbelt. I know Remy had a couple of other 3rd degrees on the Left Coast, I believe Barbara Bones, Maybe Fred King, Master Anderson, Wendy Dragonfire, Bruce Tegner, Rick Mitchell and maybe a few more but thats about it, Master Anderson might be able to elaborate!!!! Well this first camp (probably the best) was a great sucess. It was also the begining of the "Have students will get rank" era of Modern Arnis. Rank in Modern Arnis since the early 80's has rarely been about ability, but rather a passafirer for those that had schools, especially big schools that could bring the Professor in for seminars. From 1981 to about 1988 Remy would live at my parents house for months at a time he had his own room their. Quite often for you old timers when you couldn't find Remy and no one new where he was, he was at my parents house, he and my father would walk for hours, bull **** about everything and anything, go to the movies and train, he liked to wrestle alot with my dad. He would also try to make as many of my football, and Lacross games as he could when he was there. After school we trained for hours everyday some times for months at a time. He liked to have a get away where nobody would try to get rank or anything else out of him. He even cooked sometimes. I think it unlikely that very few if anyone in the U.S has more actual training time with Remy than I do. Some of you old timers know this to be true, hell he would stay at our home in Michigan and his students here wouldn't even know he was in town. Now that being said I for the life of me can not figure how some of these people can hold there heads up with pride and say they are qualified to be the rankest person of this organization or that one. Modern Arnis's rank is just insane. And Remy who had this Phobeia I call it ("Remophobiea") I use to really get his blood up when I called him Uncle Remo. Anyways Remophobia ( this will be on the test boys & girls) is the fear of hurting a fellow modern arnis practioners feelings, so you tell them what they want to here. You can find the defintion on pg. 173 of the "Book of Rock"
Anyways Remy could never find it in his heart to tell someone that they wern't as good as they thought they were or that they didn't deserve the rank they were looking for. Ok kids how many of you have attended a seminar and Remy would introduce this person or that person as his top student, protege' or something to that effect?? and the next week at a diffeernet seminar he would say the same about someone else. WOW look at those hands go up!!!
Back in 1982 Remy told me he was working on a stratagie for spreading his art. He new that some of his guys were not really good blackbelts, but he wanted to get his art tought everywhere. Now one of his master plans was he would do these large seminars and in between them I (at 16 yrs old) would do smaller ones and try to spend time bringing people up to speed. The first test area for this was Buffalo New York. A guy by the name of Don Zanghi had attended Remy's first camp, was given and instructors certificate and started teaching at his school. Don was a very nice man, a smart self defense man, but his Arnis skills were limited. So he started to bring me in every few months or so. Then one day I show up and he tells me one of his students was promoted without his knowledge to blackbelt and was opening his own school. This was the begining of years of bull **** for Buffalo. Now Remy comes to town telling this person or that person they are the top guys in Buffalo. People start arguing back and forth blaming each other for back stabbing one another, (am I wrong Dr. B). I was trying not to get caught in the middle cause everyone treated me pretty good when I was in town. But then I would also here stories of Remy telling people those famous words, when ever thay asked about training with me!!! Common Jim Power, you know those 3 little words, Remy said them about you enough times too!!! let me quote them, (On training with Rocky) Oh you got what he has "DON'T ENTERTAIN HIM" anyone ever here these words before?????
Anyways Remy left things a mess, and there will always be contoversy. But I think that guys like Master Hartman and Master Anderson are dealing the best they can with what they were given. And as I said in my last post, if you don't feel comfortable with them don't deal with them. I personally support them both, I would not feel comfortable being tested by either, even though they out rank me in Modern Arnis, myself being only a 5th Degree. But I still support them in any way I can. And to clarify things I would have no problem testing under Master Anderson in Karate, or Master Hartman in Bando, if he is qualified to do so, as I have very limited knowledge in Bando or Master Andersons American free style Karate.
So Mr. Moro Moro I believe it is, why not just let it go, it seems to me that if it bothers you so much just stay away from it.
Rocky
Doctor Barber,
I gotta make this short as I'm in a rush. Wanted to hit a few points quick:
I've got a bit under a year of kenpo (Im a little vague on the exact time), plus have had some privates. I don't consider myself an 'expert' by a very long shot or currently hold any rank in the art.
What is the value of a promotion generated by a 1 time board?
Dr. B, I ask the questions and give my opinion based on what I do know. My intent here is not to attack you or your event (which I agree with btw), but to present certain things so that questions and objections may be raised and answered ahead of time.
The rest I'll have to look at later this evening. Its my GF's b-day and, well, she outranks y'all.
Peace.
I gotta make this short as I'm in a rush. Wanted to hit a few points quick:
I train with Tim regularly. I have a previous commitment out of town that weekend due to my business or I would be attending. If it wasn't for his being part of the symposium, Tim would have been joining me. Business before pleasure for us both.
I've got a bit under a year of kenpo (Im a little vague on the exact time), plus have had some privates. I don't consider myself an 'expert' by a very long shot or currently hold any rank in the art.
What is the value of a promotion generated by a 1 time board?
Dr. B, I ask the questions and give my opinion based on what I do know. My intent here is not to attack you or your event (which I agree with btw), but to present certain things so that questions and objections may be raised and answered ahead of time.
The rest I'll have to look at later this evening. Its my GF's b-day and, well, she outranks y'all.
Peace.
