FMA MCDOJO now i have seen it all

[dearnis.com]

We do not allow students to determine teacher tenure and pay raises in public or private schools, why would the martial arts be any different?

Because the martial arts are driven by students who have the freedom to choose which instructor(s) they follow. Elementary and secondary school students are more or less stuck with a limited range of options; college students less so.
If student input played a role the racket that is the modern tenure system might not be such a factor.

Chad

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by moromoro
In traditional eskrima there was/ is no rank only the knowledge and skills that where passed on

We've been told the arts were dying out under this system. Looking at the popularity of TKD, Karate, Judo, etc. in the Philippines, is it possible that changes like this were beneficial to the arts--increased the odds of their survival? Certainly, we've bene told that Remy Presas had such thoughts, and he certainly helped revive and popularize the arts.

What if you were faced with the idea of dying 'pure' arts or living 'modified' arts? When Jigaro Kano faced that prospect, he created Judo, which some decried as impure/watered-down/etc.

If the arts seem strong to you, with lots of students, then it's one thing. To those who see them dying from lack of interest, a change like rank that serves as encouragement and measurement of progress seems a small price to pay.

the empitimy was to be known as a MAAYO ESKRIMADOR.

What does 'maayo' mean?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by DoctorB
The IMAFs, Marppio and WMAA are at loggerheads over who is best representing and preserving the art as taught be Remy Presas, why are you asking such a nonsense question? The answer is fairly obvious to all, when none of the above have necessarily accepted ranks given out by the late Professor.

Is this true of the WMAA? To which case are you referring?

why would you fail to mention Tim Hartman being promoted by his students. Outside of the WMAA, that raised more than a few eyebrows. I know, in May the signatures of Dr. Gyi and GM Jornales were added to the document and announced. But that was an AFTER THE FACT occurence wasn't it?

This was a logistical matter. We had their endorsements verbally and discussed shipping the certificate to MI for Mr. Jornales to sign then to OH for Dr. Gyi then to IN for me and finally back to NY, in order to get everything 'signed and sealed' as it were. It seemed a bit silly however since we'd all be together in early May. So, approval and willingness to sign were not after the fact--the signatures themselves were done at a convenient time, but the promotion itself was approved. We held off stating their names until the signatures were obtained as a matter of protocol.

I also say again that our position is that the organization promoted Mr. Hartman, not any person or person(s). I won't quibble the semantics and we are not asking anyone to recognize the rank--it's anyone's choice whether they choose to do so--but I would ask that people recognize that the organization did the promotion. The distinction matters in so far as the organization has rules on this matter and acted with the counsel not only of Dr. Gyi and Mr. Jornales but others, e.g. Mr. Planas of Kenpo. It also follows the Kenpo model. Saying 'promoted by his students' is, I feel, dismissive of this. You may well argue that it boils down to that and I could not disagree at some level but it surely is not quite that simple.

I have suggested that it would have been better if the two GMs concurrece could have been announced at the time the promotion was made public. One high ranking WMAA offical sent me a private message acknowledging that there was an error in timing and perhaps waiting until the May Camp in Buffalo would have been a better idea. I agree with him.

'Error' is perhaps too strong a word but in retrospect it would have been nice to have it all done at once. We have severe geography issues--there are board members in DE, IN, MI, PA, and Sweden; Mr. Hartman is in NY, Dr. Gyi is in OH, and Mr. Jornales is in MI. We are also a young and growing organization and are learning! If as you say only Mr. Hartman's supporters support it, then the matter is moot in any event. But I see wider support than that--as well as some 'raised eyebrows' as you put it. But hasn't that been true of every organization or effort? I could say the same of any Modern Arnis group you might mention, in one regard or another.

Good luck with your extra-organizational board. Everyone is finding their own way in the post-Remy Presas Modern Arnis world.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
Because the martial arts are driven by students who have the freedom to choose which instructor(s) they follow. Elementary and secondary school students are more or less stuck with a limited range of options; college students less so.
If student input played a role the racket that is the modern tenure system might not be such a factor.

Chad

You have aimed your "student sights" too low. The same applies to college and university students at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. Since my reference is only an analogy, the comparative breakdown is both obvious and easy to achieve.

Certinly college and university students are much freer to "vote with their feet" and take their tution payments elsewhere in much the same way that martial arts students are able to do. But that in no way justifies students determining promotions of their instructors. I understand ALL of the rationals given with regard to Tim's promotion ans the late signatures of Dr Gyi and GM Jornales. I can also accept the explainations. However that does not change the fact that announceing the promotion in May after the WMAA Camp and with the signatures in hand would have been a better public relations move.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoctorB
However that does not change the fact that announceing the promotion in May after the WMAA Camp and with the signatures in hand would have been a better public relations move.

You have your opinion, we have ours. The biggest reason that people are going to complain about this is that it was the 1st promotion to 7th degree since Remy's passing.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by arnisador

This was a logistical matter. We had their endorsements verbally and discussed shipping the certificate to MI for Mr. Jornales to sign then to OH for Dr. Gyi then to IN for me and finally back to NY, in order to get everything 'signed and sealed' as it were. It seemed a bit silly however since we'd all be together in early May. So, approval and willingness to sign were not after the fact--the signatures themselves were done at a convenient time, but the promotion itself was approved. We held off stating their names until the signatures were obtained as a matter of protocol.
[/B]

You have just reinforced my major point. Thanks. Time was not a critical factor in the announcement, therefore waiting until after the May Camp would have resulted in less controversy.

Originally posted by arnisador
I also say again that our position is that the organization promoted Mr. Hartman, not any person or person(s). I won't quibble the semantics and we are not asking anyone to recognize the rank--it's anyone's choice whether they choose to do so--but I would ask that people recognize that the organization did the promotion. The distinction matters in so far as the organization has rules on this matter and acted with the counsel not only of Dr. Gyi and Mr. Jornales but others, e.g. Mr. Planas of Kenpo. It also follows the Kenpo model. Saying 'promoted by his students' is, I feel, dismissive of this. You may well argue that it boils down to that and I could not disagree at some level but it surely is not quite that simple.
[/B]

You can say whatever you want, but the bottom line is that people made the decision. It is an organizational matter, but
the "WMAA" which is only a name, did nothing. The Advisory Board made the decison. How complex or simple is not really the issue. The plain fact is that everyone on the Advisory board has less rank than Tim. It was not the best thing that could have been done. That is why Terry and a few others can hammer on this. It is done, it is over.

Originally posted by arnisador
'Error' is perhaps too strong a word but in retrospect it would have been nice to have it all done at once. We have severe geography issues--there are board members in DE, IN, MI, PA, and Sweden; Mr. Hartman is in NY, Dr. Gyi is in OH, and Mr. Jornales is in MI. We are also a young and growing organization and are learning! If as you say only Mr. Hartman's supporters support it, then the matter is moot in any event. But I see wider support than that--as well as some 'raised eyebrows' as you put it. But hasn't that been true of every organization or effort? I could say the same of any Modern Arnis group you might mention, in one regard or another.

Good luck with your extra-organizational board. Everyone is finding their own way in the post-Remy Presas Modern Arnis world. [/B]

But you miss my point entirely if you insist on the geography limitations. Dr. Gyi and GM Jornales' signatures were and are
the key that elevates this back to the level that it should be at and eliminates most of the controversy. They have the rank and status to pull this promotion off and the AB concurrs - then there is NO controversy because two GMs made the decision. How the hell it went down internally within the organization is a mote point.

Thanks. I think the board is a good idea because it will be made of of Senior Masters and System Leaders. It cuts across organizational lines, yet no one is representing their respective organization in an official capacity. The Symposium Board will represent the Symposium Program and when the Symposium is over the board's official existence and power will become null and void.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoctorB]

Rocky, I am not cutting one single word from your post and YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!! You have not missed a single point nor misrepresented the facts and in particular regarding Buffalo.

Perhaps the readers of this forum and thread will re-read your post and do a lot of thinking BEFORE they reply. The trouble with too many people in Modern Arnis is that they want everyone to believe what they have to say about what Remy said or did relative to themselves, but they do not want to listen to or believe what others have to say.

We both have said this before and there are going to be people ready to say "Yes, but...."

Rocky, this one of the reasons why the Symposium is necessary. People need to talk face to face and they need to share information, techniques and see how others do the art.

Remy had a lot of students and he said a lot of things to various students at different times. I am one of the few people who has a document signed by Remy regarding a program curriculum. The Symposium is the place where those who want to see it can.

Since you and I go back to 1982 with regard to the Buffalo mess. Since we both know Don Zanghi, John Bryant, dan Carr, Tim Hartman, Tammy Wilson, David Smith, Bill Adams and the late Gary Castanza, we also know where ALL of the skeletons are hidden.

These folks need to attend the Symposium because what they will see in terms of Modern Arnis movements and techniques will open some eyes, quite wide!

You have laid out the truth, my friend and that is just about all that you can do. The rest is up to the readers.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Originally posted by Rocky
Ok I am about to catch hell again I can FEEEEL it ! If you don't like to hear the truth ( some of it negative about Remy) close your eyes or leave the room, I'l wait.......tick, tock tick tock..... ok everyone that lives in fantasyland gone??? Ok boy's and girls lets sharpen up those pencils and take notes!

In 1982 there were approximately 50 of us in the U.S ranked blackbelt or higher. The highest rank was Robert Demott 6th degree blackbelt, not a very talented Eskrimador but a great organizer, hence the high rank!!! In 1982 Remy held his first camp in WV. I went down about 5 days early and helped Jeff Arnold and his crew from Flint Michigan get the camp (formerly owned by Elvis) ready for Remy. Jeff at the time was Remy's golden boy and one of the higher ranking people in his stable 3rd Degree Blackbelt. I know Remy had a couple of other 3rd degrees on the Left Coast, I believe Barbara Bones, Maybe Fred King, Master Anderson, Wendy Dragonfire, Bruce Tegner, Rick Mitchell and maybe a few more but thats about it, Master Anderson might be able to elaborate!!!! Well this first camp (probably the best) was a great sucess. It was also the begining of the "Have students will get rank" era of Modern Arnis. Rank in Modern Arnis since the early 80's has rarely been about ability, but rather a passafirer for those that had schools, especially big schools that could bring the Professor in for seminars. From 1981 to about 1988 Remy would live at my parents house for months at a time he had his own room their. Quite often for you old timers when you couldn't find Remy and no one new where he was, he was at my parents house, he and my father would walk for hours, bull **** about everything and anything, go to the movies and train, he liked to wrestle alot with my dad. He would also try to make as many of my football, and Lacross games as he could when he was there. After school we trained for hours everyday some times for months at a time. He liked to have a get away where nobody would try to get rank or anything else out of him. He even cooked sometimes. I think it unlikely that very few if anyone in the U.S has more actual training time with Remy than I do. Some of you old timers know this to be true, hell he would stay at our home in Michigan and his students here wouldn't even know he was in town. Now that being said I for the life of me can not figure how some of these people can hold there heads up with pride and say they are qualified to be the rankest person of this organization or that one. Modern Arnis's rank is just insane. And Remy who had this Phobeia I call it ("Remophobiea") I use to really get his blood up when I called him Uncle Remo. Anyways Remophobia ( this will be on the test boys & girls) is the fear of hurting a fellow modern arnis practioners feelings, so you tell them what they want to here. You can find the defintion on pg. 173 of the "Book of Rock"

Anyways Remy could never find it in his heart to tell someone that they wern't as good as they thought they were or that they didn't deserve the rank they were looking for. Ok kids how many of you have attended a seminar and Remy would introduce this person or that person as his top student, protege' or something to that effect?? and the next week at a diffeernet seminar he would say the same about someone else. WOW look at those hands go up!!!

Back in 1982 Remy told me he was working on a stratagie for spreading his art. He new that some of his guys were not really good blackbelts, but he wanted to get his art tought everywhere. Now one of his master plans was he would do these large seminars and in between them I (at 16 yrs old) would do smaller ones and try to spend time bringing people up to speed. The first test area for this was Buffalo New York. A guy by the name of Don Zanghi had attended Remy's first camp, was given and instructors certificate and started teaching at his school. Don was a very nice man, a smart self defense man, but his Arnis skills were limited. So he started to bring me in every few months or so. Then one day I show up and he tells me one of his students was promoted without his knowledge to blackbelt and was opening his own school. This was the begining of years of bull **** for Buffalo. Now Remy comes to town telling this person or that person they are the top guys in Buffalo. People start arguing back and forth blaming each other for back stabbing one another, (am I wrong Dr. B). I was trying not to get caught in the middle cause everyone treated me pretty good when I was in town. But then I would also here stories of Remy telling people those famous words, when ever thay asked about training with me!!! Common Jim Power, you know those 3 little words, Remy said them about you enough times too!!! let me quote them, (On training with Rocky) Oh you got what he has "DON'T ENTERTAIN HIM" anyone ever here these words before?????

Anyways Remy left things a mess, and there will always be contoversy. But I think that guys like Master Hartman and Master Anderson are dealing the best they can with what they were given. And as I said in my last post, if you don't feel comfortable with them don't deal with them. I personally support them both, I would not feel comfortable being tested by either, even though they out rank me in Modern Arnis, myself being only a 5th Degree. But I still support them in any way I can. And to clarify things I would have no problem testing under Master Anderson in Karate, or Master Hartman in Bando, if he is qualified to do so, as I have very limited knowledge in Bando or Master Andersons American free style Karate.

So Mr. Moro Moro I believe it is, why not just let it go, it seems to me that if it bothers you so much just stay away from it.

Rocky

 

[DoctorB]

Bob, don't worry about a thing.

This is a debate and ideas have to be discussed and position made. My principle arguement herein and with several other people is that you (collectively) can not take a meaningful position until you have the facts to work with. The testing/ promotions board information IS NOT YET available from me.

This idea that because Professor has passed away, there is no longer a way to earn rank is foolish and untrue. It is not coming with Professor's signature on the paper, but some people will welcome and need the opportunity to be tested by a large and impartial board.

On the other hand I am already aware of two instructors who have told their students that if they attend the Symposium that they will remove them from their respective programs. That is sad and very foolish. I am not sure what these students will do, but why is that even necessary?

The Symposium is a difficult thing to put together because so many people what to destroy the idea and this forum has been the main place where the negatives have flown freely. Some people who know better and have information to the contrary, have allowed misleading statements to go unchecked and unchallenged. That annoys me and some days I just feel that I have to step in and set the record straight.

You are not one of the people that I have in mind, however your questions without previous valid information being available does not help me or the Symposium idea.

Too many people are so comfortable with their own snug little organization and standards that they fail to understand what else is out there in terms of Modern Arnis. The Symposium will open some doors and windows.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Doctor Barber,

I gotta make this short as I'm in a rush. Wanted to hit a few points quick:


I train with Tim regularly. I have a previous commitment out of town that weekend due to my business or I would be attending. If it wasn't for his being part of the symposium, Tim would have been joining me. Business before pleasure for us both.



I've got a bit under a year of kenpo (Im a little vague on the exact time), plus have had some privates. I don't consider myself an 'expert' by a very long shot or currently hold any rank in the art.



What is the value of a promotion generated by a 1 time board?


Dr. B, I ask the questions and give my opinion based on what I do know. My intent here is not to attack you or your event (which I agree with btw), but to present certain things so that questions and objections may be raised and answered ahead of time.

The rest I'll have to look at later this evening. Its my GF's b-day and, well, she outranks y'all.

Peace.

 

[dearnis.com]

You have aimed your "student sights" too low.

Explain.

And the commentary is as valid as the analogy.

Chad

 

[moromoro]

hi folks.

this is a great dicussion on modern arnis i had no idea you guys had so many different groups.

So Mr. Moro Moro I believe it is, why not just let it go, it seems to me that if it bothers you so much just stay away from it.

rocky rock, it does not really bother me i just find it funny thats all.

now for some points.

1st. In modern arnis it seems everyone wants a higher RANK, some resulting to different methods of attaining them, THEY FAIL TO REALISE THAT THE HIGHEST RANK WESTERNER LEFT BY THE PROF IS 6TH DEGREE now could this have been the reason that he did not promote anybody to 7th???????

2. also in the philippines he has given masters the title of 8th degree. if he followed the japanese ranking structure the title of 8th degree means a high ranking master i.e KENDO.

You said your peace and others have said thiers. I think we can ALL agree to disagree. I think it's time to let it go.

yes, good

thanks

terry

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoctorB
. . .

This is a debate and ideas have to be discussed and position made. My principle arguement herein and with several other people is that you (collectively) can not take a meaningful position until you have the facts to work with. The testing/ promotions board information IS NOT YET available from me.

. . .
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Jerome,

If the testing boards and or promotions board information is not yet available, then why did you bring it up?

You tried to use this point as an issue in this thread, yet you seem to have fallen into the same issue. Was something rushed? Was something out of order? Were you ready, yet something changed at the last minute? Was it an accident to release this information early? Or did you mean to release this information and the questions caught you flat footed?

Curious
:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by moromoro

1st. In modern arnis it seems everyone wants a higher RANK, some resulting to different methods of attaining them, THEY FAIL TO REALISE THAT THE HIGHEST RANK WESTERNER LEFT BY THE PROF IS 6TH DEGREE now could this have been the reason that he did not promote anybody to 7th???????

No, I think it was because he passed away before he had a chance to do so. Based on how things were going at the time there was a good chance that I would have been the 1st outside the P.I. promoted to that level.

 

[Rocky]

Originally posted by moromoro
hi folks.

this is a great dicussion on modern arnis i had no idea you guys had so many different groups.



rocky rock, it does not really bother me i just find it funny thats all.

now for some points.

1st. In modern arnis it seems everyone wants a higher RANK, some resulting to different methods of attaining them, THEY FAIL TO REALISE THAT THE HIGHEST RANK WESTERNER LEFT BY THE PROF IS 6TH DEGREE now could this have been the reason that he did not promote anybody to 7th???????

2. also in the philippines he has given masters the title of 8th degree. if he followed the japanese ranking structure the title of 8th degree means a high ranking master i.e KENDO.



yes, good

thanks

terry

FOr the most part I agree with the Modern Arnis rank thing being all messed up!

However the Remy did promote Master Robert Demott to 7th degree in 1988. I know I was there and it blew my mind. He has half the talent/knowledege of many a blackbelts half his rank!!

But my point is stand back and look at the whole picture. I knew that when Master Hartmans people did what they did he was going to catch hell for it. But he is trying to run an organization (one of the first to be run like an organization) he is trying to do what Remy never could. You may not agree with everything he does but he is out doing what The Profssor wanted, and that is spreadig the art. And as a good business man he is setting up an organization that will be organized in both its way of teaching, and promoting. And if run properly he will be able to make a nice living at it too, which is great.

So instead of just waiting to pounce on people why not step back and look at the whole picture.


Rocky

P.S Some of the so called masters back in the Phillipines are just that "SO CALLED"

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Jerome,

If the testing boards and or promotions board information is not yet available, then why did you bring it up?

You tried to use this point as an issue in this thread, yet you seem to have fallen into the same issue. Was something rushed? Was something out of order? Were you ready, yet something changed at the last minute? Was it an accident to release this information early? Or did you mean to release this information and the questions caught you flat footed?

Curious
:asian:

Hi Rich,

The board was brought up in the context of this thread. There is another way for promotions to be earned. This proposed board is one of the possibilities and it precludes the need for students to be the people conferring the honor.

I was designated as a Senior Master, but NOT by any of my students present or past. That distiction came from a 10 member board of GMs at the GOE2. I am not advocating that one needs to have such a panel for all promotions, but in the absence of a system GM because of illness or death, getting the recognition from another GM or two is preferable to having students grant the honor.

If someone is going to be critical of the Symposium Board, that's fine, just wait until the details are available and the purpose is made clear. Neither has occured, yet!

As for acceptence of the rank awarded by others, nothing has changed, it is still an individual decision.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Renegade
No, I think it was because he passed away before he had a chance to do so. Based on how things were going at the time there was a good chance that I would have been the 1st outside the P.I. promoted to that level.

I haven't had time to read the mess yall made here yet...been busy.

I just wanted to vouch for Tim on this one statement, just to back it up. I was in the "scene" back then, and I can vouch that what Tim says is the truth.

:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Renegade
Based on how things were going at the time there was a good chance that I would have been the 1st outside the P.I. promoted to that level.

Debatable. Verrry debatable.

Yours,
Dan

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by DoctorB
On the other hand I am already aware of two instructors who have told their students that if they attend the Symposium that they will remove them from their respective programs. Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Yoicks! Double yoicks!!

Dan

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by moromoro
hi folks.

0. this is a great dicussion on modern arnis i had no idea you guys had so many different groups.

1st. In modern arnis it seems everyone wants a higher RANK, some resulting to different methods of attaining them, THEY FAIL TO REALISE THAT THE HIGHEST RANK WESTERNER LEFT BY THE PROF IS 6TH DEGREE now could this have been the reason that he did not promote anybody to 7th???????

2. also in the philippines he has given masters the title of 8th degree. if he followed the japanese ranking structure the title of 8th degree means a high ranking master i.e KENDO.

thanks

terry

Terry,

0. Welcome to the world of Modern Arnis. We have all sorts of groups since the founder passed away. To name a few: WMAA (Tim Hartman), IMAF (Jeff Delaney), IMAF, Inc. (Randi Shea), WMAC (Kelly Worden), MARPPIO (Remy P. Presas), IEAA (Jerome Barber), American Modern Arnis (Tom Bolden) and the most wonderful American Modern Arnis practitioner alive (myself ).

1. is impossible to answer because the only one who could answer that question isn't around to do so.

2. Don't know, can't say. You'd have to check with someone over there who is 8th or higher.

Yours,
Truly the last of the good guys, Dan Anderson

 

[Dan Anderson]

If you guys really want something to crab about, I'll do a Choki Motobu and promote myself to 11th Dan and then promote everybody who shows up at the Symposium...for an exhorbitant fee, of course.
:shrug: :asian:

Sorry folks, but everybody is getting soooooooooo worked up about this that I couldn't resist.

Seriously Yours,
Dan Anderson
The Greatest Warrior On The Planet :rofl:

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Debatable. Verrry debatable.

Yours,
Dan

Please explain.