See Rocky's Last Post. :asian:
FMA MCDOJO now i have seen it all
- Thread starter moromoro
- Start date
See Rocky's Last Post. :asian:
Rocky,
I agree with what you say here for the most part
Many A time in the 90's when GM RP was at a seminar at Jaye Spiro's Manong (GM) Ted Buot would stop by. Remy would announce publically that if you wanted to be the best Eskrimador, then go train with Manong Buot.
Just another data point to back up what the Rock has said. Not that he needs any backing up
:asian:
Cruentus
Grandmaster
I see. I didn't catch that.
I think the comment still warrents explaination, though. Why did Dan say that this was debatable? was this because a promotion to 7th degree in the states has already been done with this Demott individual, therefore Tim would not have been the 1st? If that is what Dan ment, AND if Demott has a certificate to back up that 7th degree title, then I can't disagree here.
If, however, Dan was implying that someone else (outside of Demott) would have gotten promoted before Tim to 7th degree, then I think that I might a major issue.
:asian:
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Paul,
Very simply, stated, RP never had (or I should say never demonstrated) any rhyme or reason behind Modern Arnis rank promotions done in the states. Anyone with 20 years experience with the man would back me up on that one. It could've been Tim, it could've been me, it could've been Chuck and it could've been (insert your favorite name here) who would've been the first 7th degree outside the PI. Hell, Paul, it could've been you for that matter.
No offense intended to Tim here but for him to think there was a good chance that he would have been the first one is wishful thinking. I apply the same criteria to myself and I got promoted a full 8 years before Tim. Not while RP was alive was there any kind of prediction behind rank promotions, especially in the upper levels.
The closest thing he had to any kind of method was in his first book and he didn't follow that. He didn't. Look at the promotions of the various upper levels over the last decade and you tell me if you can find any A-B logic.
Yours,
Dan
R
Rocky
Guest
What happen to Robert Demott???
Well he probably relizes now that his skill's as an Arnis instructor are no where's near what he once thought they were, Hopefully. He played the political game with Remy and lost. He had a few very successful schools and was one of the first people to bring Remy in to do seminars, not just in Michigan but in the U.S back in the 70's when I first met Remy. I believe Robert may be Jim ( me soooo old ) Power's first instructor, Jim???? however Jim has long passed Robert's ability, as has Tim Hartman. ( unless Robert has been doing some serious training I don't know about, but he was a TKD guy mostly )
I believe the debate between Tim or Dan getting the next 7th (active) is really a waste of time!!! The truth is probablly more like which ever one didn't piss Remy off for some reason would have probably gotten it first :rofl:
Just think if I wouldn't of pissed Remy off I could be in the middle of all this termoil.:rofl: I was promoted to 5th back in 1988 or 89, man you guys get all the fun.
Paul wrote:
Paul please don't put so much stock into certifacates , Remy promoted many, many, people without certicates!!!!. I think this may have been a tool to use against them later if they pissed him off. I personally do not have a 3rd degree blackbelt certificate, all I have is a picture of his signature on my hand that said Rocky, Lakan Tatlo with Remy's signature. And the testing was done while flying from Norway to Germany in 1985. In fact I have never tested in the traditional fashion in front of Remy since then. And since you train with Manong Ted just ask him how Remy really felt about my ability. Remy use to love to watch me and Ted training back in the early to mid 80's, it reminded him of home and his younger days. Except Remy could never get Abcedario down, I tried a dozen time to show it to him, I know that alot of the new stuff he taught you guys in the last 10 years though came from watch some of the teaching stucture Manong Ted had. See I am about to let you in on another little secret, SSHHH don't tell anyone, Remy was pre Abcedario when training wit hGreat Grand Master Bacon, so he didn't know Abcedario. Now remember don't tell anyone
Rocky
Well he probably relizes now that his skill's as an Arnis instructor are no where's near what he once thought they were, Hopefully. He played the political game with Remy and lost. He had a few very successful schools and was one of the first people to bring Remy in to do seminars, not just in Michigan but in the U.S back in the 70's when I first met Remy. I believe Robert may be Jim ( me soooo old ) Power's first instructor, Jim???? however Jim has long passed Robert's ability, as has Tim Hartman. ( unless Robert has been doing some serious training I don't know about, but he was a TKD guy mostly )
I believe the debate between Tim or Dan getting the next 7th (active) is really a waste of time!!! The truth is probablly more like which ever one didn't piss Remy off for some reason would have probably gotten it first :rofl:
Just think if I wouldn't of pissed Remy off I could be in the middle of all this termoil.:rofl: I was promoted to 5th back in 1988 or 89, man you guys get all the fun.
Paul wrote:
Paul please don't put so much stock into certifacates , Remy promoted many, many, people without certicates!!!!. I think this may have been a tool to use against them later if they pissed him off. I personally do not have a 3rd degree blackbelt certificate, all I have is a picture of his signature on my hand that said Rocky, Lakan Tatlo with Remy's signature. And the testing was done while flying from Norway to Germany in 1985. In fact I have never tested in the traditional fashion in front of Remy since then. And since you train with Manong Ted just ask him how Remy really felt about my ability. Remy use to love to watch me and Ted training back in the early to mid 80's, it reminded him of home and his younger days. Except Remy could never get Abcedario down, I tried a dozen time to show it to him, I know that alot of the new stuff he taught you guys in the last 10 years though came from watch some of the teaching stucture Manong Ted had. See I am about to let you in on another little secret, SSHHH don't tell anyone, Remy was pre Abcedario when training wit hGreat Grand Master Bacon, so he didn't know Abcedario. Now remember don't tell anyone
Rocky
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Rocky,
You dog! You swine! You beast! You are soooooooo on the money! Where in the hell do you come off telling the truth, for crying out loud!?! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Pardon me, I need to go off an cry somehwere.
Tearfully yours,
Dan
Master Robert Demott still had/has a student or two in the Flint Area. He is in a semi retirement I beleive, and works with his student(s) who run a club or school. Currently I do not of anyone teaching under him. Yet, the last student of Demott's that owned a school moved away about a year or so ago.
As, to Jim's First Instructor, it was Jeff Fields. :asian:
It was Robert Demott, Jeff Fields and Jeff Arnold, that were some of the pioneers in the Flint and early days of Modern Arnis in the Mid-west.
Rocky you could still be in the "termoil" if you wish
.:asian:
Cruentus
Grandmaster
I understand what you are saying. I have to agree that there often was no rhyme or reason with Professors rank structure.
I will attest, however, that there WAS a level of structure with Tim's earned ranks. The one thing that seemed consistant to me was the time frame between black belts. There was no hurried promotion, or 2 or 3 degree "jumps" with Tim, as there often were with others. None of Tim's promotions were granted due to some political circumstance, either. Tim tested for all but 1 of his ranks, but each rank was earned, regardless. I don't think anyone can, or should even try to take this away from Tim.
Having said that, we must also understand that Tim was the highest ranking person who was ACTIVE WITH PROFESSOR PRESAS in the last few years of his life. Sure, there were other high ranked people, such as yourself, Rocky, Kelly Worden, etc., but due to circumstances, most "high ranked" people were not actively training with Professor at the time around his death. I am not rebuking these people for not being "active," I am not saying that these other high ranked people don't have a piece of the art, and I am not saying that these other high ranked people aren't skilled.
SO, NOBODY GO THERE. But I am saying that most of his high ranked students, 4th degree and up, were not actively training with professor. We had some (not all, for a few were promoted when Remy got sick) of the MOTTS who where 4th and 5th degrees, a couple non-MOTTS who were 4th and 5th, and then we had Tim who was a 6th degree. I'll repeat it again so everyone understands: TIM....HIGHEST ACTIVE RANK....FROM ABOUT 1998 ON; Now that we have cleared that up.....
Being that Tim was consistantly promoted about every 3 years, was considered Remy's "american" son, and he was the most active 6th degree during the most recent time frame, it is only logical and safe to assume that if Remys health hadn't of failed, Tim would have been promoted to 7th, as scheduled, about a year after Remy's passing. This just seems to be the most probable thing that would have occured.
Now, could a 5th or another 6th have decided to come on the scene all of a sudden to jock for a 7th degree promotion before Tim, had professor stayed alive for another year? Sure, this is possible. Anything is possible. But I don't think that any 5th or 6th who wasn't active should fool themselves into thinking, "yea, I could have visited and trained a few times with the old man, and he would have given me my 7th." There is no evidence to support this kind of thinking. Could some freak thing have occured to prevent Tim from getting his 7th? Yes.....and it did; the man died.
So, I maintain that THE MOST PROBABLE THING that would have occured had Professor been in good health was that Tim would have been promoted to 7th in 03.' Outside of Demott, he would have been the 1st american 7th degree. Tim had said "based on how things were going at the time" he would have been promoted, and I backed him up because I knew how things were "going at the time." You said "verrry debatable." I say "verrry probable," considering the circumstance.
SIDE NOTE: This is not specifically for Dan A., but for everyone. I know that what people are going to do, as often heppends, is that people are going to argue one of 3 things. I am going to debunk these 3 common arguements right now, before they occur.
#1: "In 1989 (or some other date long before professors passing) so-and-so was told such and such."
A lot of people were told a lot of things in the past, but the people who were told these things did not stick around with professor to see these things through. To use an obscure example, If someone was told that they would carry the system in 88,' but parted ways with professor in 89,' then guess what? They are not going to carry the system! Having been inactive, yet living in past glories does not give anyone anykind of credability.
#2 "I was told in 99' that I would be (or was) professors (insert word here)."
As many have attested to numerous times, Professor had said many things, without rhyme or reason, that were never really followed up on. But this is why these things NEEDED TO BE FOLLOWED THROUGH, AND FOLLOWED UP ON for them to be valid. People are too quick to pull the "professor said this" or Professor said that" game, yet not only is there no proof, but what was allegedly said was never followed through, and therefore isn't valid! You might of been told that you are a third, or 5th, or 7th degree by professor. You may have even been told this publically. But if you were never recognized as whatever what was "said" to you, or if you never had what was said followed up with a certificate, or proof, at some point, then how valid was what you were told? What is important is what occured, not what you were told.
Example: Rocky was told he was a third degree, and never had a certificate. This is not important. It was followed up with a 4th degree, and 5th degree, and public recognition, however, which makes this valid. This is what was important. All of Tims designations were followed through with the paperwork or validation to prove it. Many other things that were "said" to people, however, were not actually followed through. I don't think that these people have a claim to what was "said" if what was "said" never became a reality.
So if any of you plan on thinking your special because you were "told" something, your arguement has just been debunked.
#3 "So and so was told that they were such and such in professors last days." Don't think that any of your promotions, or anything that you were told for that matter, on Professors death bed should be considered valid. The man had a tumor the size of a grapefruit in his head, and he was sick and dying. Plus, he was stressed out over a bunch of tools who were trying to jocky for positions in his art. He was not making good decisions at this time in his life. Who ever would like to argue that he was in fine condition to make decisions is dilusional. Jeff Delany is the perfect example of my point; that guy would have never been promoted to 5th, given a "master" title, and given the leeway and power to assist Dr. Shea in carrying the IMAF organization if Professor was making good decisions at that time. And the results of that decisions are proof that it wasn't a good one.
Now, for the record, If I was offered rank or status while the man was dying, I would have turned it down. S**t, I turned down rank and status while he was alive and well, so turning down an offer is just something I am capable of, I guess. I wouldn't expect everyone to turn down death bed promotions, but I do expect and demand that people would respect the art enough to not try to use what was said or done on Professors death bed to their own advantage.
So, just because professor said or did something when he was sick, this does not give you any extra leverage. On a final note, if we believe all that was said when Professor was sick, then Tim Hartman would be the head of Modern Arnis above anyone else. That's right, when professor was sick, he offered Tim the system. Tim did the right thing and turned down the offer.
Sorry if I stepped on some toes here, but I only speak the truth as I see it.
:asian:
PAUL
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Finally a solution to all our problems. Dan your absolutly right. We should crown me the new head of the system. I'll be the new 10th degree, grandmaster. Just send me 1/10th of your income as an organization fee every month, and I'll be sure to take care of all of our problems!
That was what you were really trying to say, huh...right Dan.
:rofl:
On a serious note, despite my previous disertation, I do agree that we shouldn't argue over what "could" have happend. That might prove to be pretty pointless.
PAUL
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
So Paul,
If you are "not saying that these other high ranked people don't have a piece of the art," then pray tell me, what piece of the art am I missing? I am very interested in your answer.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Dan, please don't misunderstand me. I'll qoute myself...
I like quoting myself...I think I'll do that more often.
I am not discussing the issue of "skill" here. I am not making a judgement on your abilities, or anyone elses. I am simply argueing the fact that Tim was the highest ranked person who was ACTIVE at the time before and at Professors death. That is all I am saying here.
In terms of pieces of the art; we all have our own pieces of the art, and we all are missing pieces as well. Not everyone took away from modern arnis the same things. That is the beauty of getting together and training; we can all discover pieces that we haven't seen or missed from our juniors as well as our seniors. It is just the nature of the constantly evolving and ever-loose structure of Modern Arnis. So don't take what I said about missing pieces an insult.
In terms of what pieces your missing, I think you could answer that question for us better then I could. Do you know all of what Professor was teaching before you started training with him? How about what he taught his students in the PI? How about what he taught his students during the Tapi-tapi era, particularly from 1995 abd beyond? Do you know all of these things? I am going to guess that there are some missing pieces there. This is fine, and doesn't make you any less of a martial artist. It just points to the fact that we all have to work together, that's all. It's like when you've said Dan Anderson Arnis is different then MOTTS arnis, or Tim Hartman Arnis. We all have different pieces, is all.
B
bloodwood
Guest
While trying to decide how to relay my thoughts concerning possible high level promotions, in steps Paul and does it for me. I am pretty much in agreement on what Paul and Rocky have just posted. I'm just glad I didn't have to do all that typing.
bloodwood
bloodwood
The following can be found at www.archive.org .
http://web.archive.org/web/20001027042323/www.modernarnis.com/news.htm
That being said, it was MOST LIKELY that I would become the next 7th. This did not say that I would. I don't see the problem here. It was Remy himself that made this statement at the end of testing. It is possible that someone else may have been promoted before me, but if Remy thought I was his number 1 guy in the States, it would be logical that I would PROBABLY be the next to get the 7th.
http://web.archive.org/web/20001027042323/www.modernarnis.com/news.htm
That being said, it was MOST LIKELY that I would become the next 7th. This did not say that I would. I don't see the problem here. It was Remy himself that made this statement at the end of testing. It is possible that someone else may have been promoted before me, but if Remy thought I was his number 1 guy in the States, it would be logical that I would PROBABLY be the next to get the 7th.
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
Standard testing at the camps, when Professor was alive and heading up the program, consisted of demonstrating the various components of the system as asked for. Depending on the time and place the evaluation might consist largely of newer material as covered in the preceeding days, or older material, possibly things that had not been stressed in the previous year or so (to see who kept current on the old stuff; ie basics).
Typical would be demonstration of basic techniques, striking styles, flow, etc.; then on to disarming and reversal techniques, the various incarnations of solo baston semi-sparring/counter for counter/tapi-tapi/insert favorite name for semi-free flow. Also covered would be empty hand techniques and applications, usually the self defense of the time and place (for a while the ground controls were stressed, later they were not emphasized as much). Typically the anyos/forms were demonstrated last.
Typical camp tests ranged between 2 and 4 hours.
Now, everyone please note..
I was NOT in Michigan when Tim tested; I answered as to what a TYPICAL test consisted of during the years I attended camps (94-2001) while Professor was alive.
Also note that, especially with higher level students, Professor's evaluation was based on observation throughout the camp... Could you teach? Did you get on the mat and get involved? were you too good to adopt a first-timer, or would you take responsibility for ensuring that a beginner had a positive experience and left the camp a better martial artist. How did you do when Professor pulled you aside to "play" for a few minutes; how did you do as an uke.
What people seem to forget is that RP had a gift for knowing and remebering his various students, and not much that went on on the floor missed his attention, whether he showed it or not.
Chad
Typical would be demonstration of basic techniques, striking styles, flow, etc.; then on to disarming and reversal techniques, the various incarnations of solo baston semi-sparring/counter for counter/tapi-tapi/insert favorite name for semi-free flow. Also covered would be empty hand techniques and applications, usually the self defense of the time and place (for a while the ground controls were stressed, later they were not emphasized as much). Typically the anyos/forms were demonstrated last.
Typical camp tests ranged between 2 and 4 hours.
Now, everyone please note..
I was NOT in Michigan when Tim tested; I answered as to what a TYPICAL test consisted of during the years I attended camps (94-2001) while Professor was alive.
Also note that, especially with higher level students, Professor's evaluation was based on observation throughout the camp... Could you teach? Did you get on the mat and get involved? were you too good to adopt a first-timer, or would you take responsibility for ensuring that a beginner had a positive experience and left the camp a better martial artist. How did you do when Professor pulled you aside to "play" for a few minutes; how did you do as an uke.
What people seem to forget is that RP had a gift for knowing and remebering his various students, and not much that went on on the floor missed his attention, whether he showed it or not.
Chad
So true!
D
DoctorB
Guest
Because Norshadow answered some questions does not mean that he answered them correctly. He is speculating as are most of you. I will answer the promotions questions in due time. I am looking at ALL of your posts and there have been several good ideas that will try incorperate.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
D
DoctorB
Guest
Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Yes I would like to get the answers from the organizer. If he was not ready to have the issue discussed, ten it should not have been mentioned.
Unless, he was trying to get public feedback, without asking for it?
Still waiting for answers
:asian:
Actually I was not looking for feedback, but since people are going to post without having all of the facts from me, I should at least read their comments, shouldn't I? A couple of good points were raised and they need to be considered.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
D
DoctorB
Guest
You are right, I have an opinion, however, I also know of some comments posted on another forum that did not concern itself with whether or not Remy was alive or dead. They simply were discussing the issue of students ranking/promoting their instructors. I would be happy to post a couple if you are interested in reading them. It was a general discussion and not aimed specificly at the WMAA, because of the way the opening question was framed.
Jwerome Barber, Ed.D.
