Flailing in sparring

[drop bear]

Against a highly skilled striker, it's the first place I am going. Because a striker is wanting to use his best weapons to pick you apart at range.
Deny him! Make him uncomfortable.

Against a highly skilled Wrestler/Judoka it's the last place I would like to go. Stay at kicking to punching range if possible, I will gripfight, but if we get to clinching, headbutt, tear off ears, crush insteps etc. and trap trap trap. Elbows and knees.


I would like to retain mobility and the opportunity to run for it, so I would like to stay off the ground, so Knee on belly works for me (or chest, or neck/head)

But it would be really helpful to put the other guy on the ground, one of the best places to do that is from clinch.

I think wrestling mechanics suppress a lot of head butt ear pulling instep crushing.

I mean have you seen a wrestlers ears?

 

[TSDTexan]

I think wrestling mechanics suppress a lot of head butt ear pulling instep crushing.

I mean have you seen a wrestlers ears?

I dont think anyone is actively trying to tear them off. And the Pain Input both off balances, and opens thing up like a throat strike. Unless their on PCP or Something.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

See for me if I enter I shoot in rather than clinch because a skilled striker is liable to punch my head off.

Mma is not like Thai where you can often stand in the pocket and trade, then move to clinch. In MNA you can get clipped and finished pretty easily.

With a GI it is a bit easier because I can grab sleeves. But bare chested and sweaty. Clinching a striker I am worried about is a big ask.

That's the approach I'd prefer. I just don't trust my knees, can't use my toes once I get low, and didn't develop those takedowns well enough to compensate for that. So, I have to slip and wade unless they leave me a great opening for a sloppy shoot. And, yeah, a skilled striker can dismantle me if I don't get some control with the striking first.

 

[drop bear]

That's the approach I'd prefer. I just don't trust my knees, can't use my toes once I get low, and didn't develop those takedowns well enough to compensate for that. So, I have to slip and wade unless they leave me a great opening for a sloppy shoot. And, yeah, a skilled striker can dismantle me if I don't get some control with the striking first.

You should have bailed up tony and worked out a mechanic.

Or your striking has to be on par with theirs. Trust me there is not many things worse than chasing a clinch and just getting teed off on.

 

[drop bear]

I dont think anyone is actively trying to tear them off. And the Pain Input both off balances, and opens thing up like a throat strike. Unless their on PCP or Something.

No really. Have you seen a wrestlers ears?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You should have bailed up tony and worked out a mechanic.

Or your striking has to be on par with theirs. Trust me there is not many things worse than chasing a clinch and just getting teed off on.

I already had a huge list of stuff I wanted to get out of Tony. Dude eventually has to go home after class.

 

[Danny T]

Over a decade of karate/wc and don’t have up close punching skills???
Interesting.

Up close (clinch)…ok are you actually in a clinch? It is difficult to punch when actually clinched depending on if you are clinching and how as well as if you are clinched and how.

Are you in a head control clinch, a head & arm clinch, a body lock front/back/side, or a 50/50 over/under. Then there are leg clinches; single, double, and of course trips, sweeps, and throws.

Punching in a clinch is usually a single punch though one can sometimes get in multiples and is quick strike due to a momentary opening when clinched and then immediately gaining control of the clinch again or escaping the clinch.

Have you done any pummeling drills, clinch countering /re-countering drills?
These will give you the opening and timing to strike within the clinch.
Elbows can be very effective in clinch situations. Forearms to frame or to pressure into the opponent’s face, neck, collarbone/chest and shoulder butts can create space and openings for elbow strikes.

 

[TSDTexan]

No really. Have you seen a wrestlers ears?

Yes. I used to know a bunch of D1 wrestlers in college. and having colloflower ears doesn't mean they can't be ripped off. (but most of em always wore their ear protectors.)

I personally knew a college wrestler who had to have reconstructive surgery to reattach a torn off ear after a fight at a bar's parking lot.
He list the fight, his ear, and worst of all...

It cost him his athletic scholarship.
He came from oil money, so he still graduated.

Ears get destroyed. Not often.
But it happens more than you realize.

 

[TSDTexan]

Over a decade of karate/wc and don’t have up close punching skills???
Interesting.

Up close (clinch)…ok are you actually in a clinch? It is difficult to punch when actually clinched depending on if you are clinching and how as well as if you are clinched and how.

Are you in a head control clinch, a head & arm clinch, a body lock front/back/side, or a 50/50 over/under. Then there are leg clinches; single, double, and of course trips, sweeps, and throws.

Punching in a clinch is usually a single punch though one can sometimes get in multiples and is quick strike due to a momentary opening when clinched and then immediately gaining control of the clinch again or escaping the clinch.

Have you done any pummeling drills, clinch countering /re-countering drills?
These will give you the opening and timing to strike within the clinch.
Elbows can be very effective in clinch situations. Forearms to frame or to pressure into the opponent’s face, neck, collarbone/chest and shoulder butts can create space and openings for elbow strikes.

Yes, I had the same questions in my head.

I suspect.... but I didn't want to be negative.

 

[Danny T]

See for me if I enter I shoot in rather than clinch because a skilled striker is liable to punch my head off.

Mma is not like Thai where you can often stand in the pocket and trade, then move to clinch. In MNA you can get clipped and finished pretty easily.

With a GI it is a bit easier because I can grab sleeves. But bare chested and sweaty. Clinching a striker I am worried about is a big ask.

Yep...going in for a standing clinch against a decent striker who also have a good standing clinch game is a great way to your head rearranged. There is a difference in the range of the combatants in MT and MMA due to the potential shoot and that difference is huge when attempting to move into a standing clinch.

 

[drop bear]

I already had a huge list of stuff I wanted to get out of Tony. Dude eventually has to go home after class.

Make a list for next time.

There are a whole bunch of different ways to hit a double leg. Some your body might be able to do. Some you won't. And I am not sure which until you do it.

My guess would be to just run the pipe almost like a rugby tackle. But then there might be a physical issue.

Otherwise that driving in to a standing clinch business sucks from a MMA perspective. And you look at the judo guys. They get seriously beat on. Even if they win.

Having said that our fighter Bec is going up against a judo Olympian. So we might be facing seriously efficient standing clinch work. So that might be interesting when the video comes out.

 

[drop bear]

Yes. I used to know a bunch of D1 wrestlers in college. and having colloflower ears doesn't mean they can't be ripped off. (but most of em always wore their ear protectors.)

I personally knew a college wrestler who had to have reconstructive surgery to reattach a torn off ear after a fight at a bar's parking lot.
He list the fight, his ear, and worst of all...

It cost him his athletic scholarship.
He came from oil money, so he still graduated.

Ears get destroyed. Not often.
But it happens more than you realize.

And Muay Thai fighters break shins. But ivam not going to be attacking them.

 

[lansao]

I think there might be a useful note here about winning versus training. It might not be the case here but sharing for other readers of the thread that might be having this issue. I get it when sparring and when doing Chi Sao.

I had (and still have but less so) a habit of wanting to win and what happened was I eventually would miss a counter and would flail to recover and erase from my memory the issue that got me there in the first place.

This as opposed to eating the miss (easier when your partner isn’t going full break-nose donkey mcaggro-cray on you) and asking questions like:
What went wrong in the step(s) before that led me to this point?
How can I counter that next time?
Will my partner be willing to practice the last 3-4 smallest movements that led up to my miss?
Can I rehearse a useful response to that moment and train it into muscle memory slowly?

 

[Martial D]

Over a decade of karate/wc and don’t have up close punching skills???
Interesting.

I'd wager there are tons of people with this much or more time put into either or both of those things that have never sparred at all.

 

[lansao]

I think there might be a useful note here about winning versus training. It might not be the case here but sharing for other readers of the thread that might be having this issue. I get it when sparring and when doing Chi Sao.

I had (and still have but less so) a habit of wanting to win and what happened was I eventually would miss a counter and would flail to recover and erase from my memory the issue that got me there in the first place.

This as opposed to eating the miss (easier when your partner isn’t going full break-nose donkey mcaggro-cray on you) and asking questions like:
What went wrong in the step(s) before that led me to this point?
How can I counter that next time?
Will my partner be willing to practice the last 3-4 smallest movements that led up to my miss?
Can I rehearse a useful response to that moment and train it into muscle memory slowly?

Also! Record sparring videos just for you. You can get a portable gorilla tripod for cheap and mount it on a corner of your ring easily enough.

Look for a flailing moment, rewind a few seconds from it, and play back in slow motion to see if/where a counter was missed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My guess would be to just run the pipe almost like a rugby tackle.

Put a little more finesse (not much) and you’re in the ballpark of my sloppy shoot. I can pull it off, but it’s not my strong suit.

 

[drop bear]

Put a little more finesse (not much) and you’re in the ballpark of my sloppy shoot. I can pull it off, but it’s not my strong suit.

Otherwise you have to be able to walk through punches in some manner. Which is tough.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have a problem where during sparring when up close(clinch) ...

When the distance is

- far, you use kick and punch.
- close, you use lock and throw.

It's logical for a

- wrestler to learn kick and punch.
- striker to learn lock and throw.

During clinch, there are a totally different set of skills that you will need to learn such as:

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing
蓋(Gai) - Covering hands
攞(Lou)- Pulling hands
搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
捯(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
抖(Dou) – Shaking
分(Fen) - Separate hands
掖(Ye) - Hand tucking
引(Yin) - Arm guiding
捧(Peng) - Arm raising
架(Jia) - Elbow Locking
圈(Quan) – Under hook
抄(Chao) - Over hook
抹(Mo) - Wiping
偏(Pian) – Head circling
夾(Jia) – Clamping head
摘(Zai) – Helmet removing
摀(Wu) – Face covering
速(Su) – Forehead push
墬(Zhui) - Sticking drop
撈 (Lao) – Leg seize
環(Huan) – Neck surrounding
托(Tuo) – Chin pushing
封(Feng) – Throat/waist blocking
撒(Sa) - Casting
飄(Piao) - Floating hand

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I already had a huge list of stuff I wanted to get out of Tony. Dude eventually has to go home after class.

I was willing to stay later, but you still had a 90 minute drive to get Mike back home to Louisville.

 

[TSDTexan]

I was willing to stay later, but you still had a 90 minute drive to get Mike back home to Louisville.

Top Drawer... the willingness to share beyond the expected. Tony .. You are a real dude.