Fellow Shotokan Karateka!

[Leviathan]

It’s OK that you do not understand kata. Really, it is.

But trying to make something out of nothing isn't.

 

[Flying Crane]

But trying to make something out of nothing isn't.

Please enlighten me.

 

[DaveB]

Hi,

Thanks for the video. Interesting indeed but it triggers a few questions in my mind:

- Are these shotokan katas? They don't seem familiar to me.

- Did those MMA fighters learn those techniques from katas or is it just a coincidence that what they did in the ring was similar to a move in a given kata? Does it speak for the katas or for the guy who made the video? I wouldn't be surprised if you could make up a similar video MMA - folcloric dance.

- if the purpose of katas was to mimick a fight as those shown in the video then shotokan training has gotten totally mad: shotokan is to full contact what a polar bear is to the desert. Shotokan kumites are light contact, shotokan is much more a gymnastic than a real martial art (said the founder of kyokushin). But well, maybe these are katas from full contact karate, not shotokan.

The founder of Kyokushin also said that Funakoshi, Shotokan's founder, taught him the most.

Some of the kata were Shotokan, some Goju ryu, but the point was more that these are examples of how kata movement translates to fighting.

The limit is only how you choose to train and develop.

The MMA fighters most likely didn't learn the movements from kata, but I'm not sure why that's important? If I hook punch in my kata and you hook punch in the ring after doing thai boxing, my kata still has a hook punch and it can still be used in the ring.

And yes, you can take fighting movements, remove the opponents and have something like a kata... because that's what a kata is.

Most arts drill movements without a partner to some degree. Kata was just a way to consolidate and practice effective movements so that important lessons were not forgotten.

And as mentioned before, how one trains any art is not the art its self. Light touch kumite is a choice. Nothing about the art of Shotokan prevents your old dojo sparring full contact.

If your muay thai school only trained fitness and light touch sparring, it would still be a muay thai school.

 

[DaveB]

...
Talking about the Shotokan kata, I recommend comparing them to their equivalents in other (especially in older) Shorin-ryu based styles.

There's no such thing. It's a common misconception, but the founders of the various shorin ryu styles were all juniors of Funakoshi with the one exception of (i think) Chosin Chibana, who was his contemporary.

What Funakoshi taught in Japan was an Itosu-fication of the karate passed down from Bushi Matsumura, the kings bodyguard.

What people call Shorin ryu is just Itosu karate. Matsumura refused to teach Itosu (although I've heard that he may have changed his tune later on).

The only style of karate that ive heard of that might be older than Shotokan and still going in the modern era is the style that Matsumura taught his family. The man who started teaching this publicly called it Shorin ryu because that was what everyone else was doing, but its so rare and different its not what people mean when they say Shorin ryu.

 

[Carlos Joaquim]

Hi guys, I am new here. My name is Carlos and I am wondering if anyone could help me find a good Shotokan class during the day?
I work in Central London and would like to go back into training and a daytime class would be just ideal for me. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In fairness to Leviathan, many of the older Shotokan orgs use kata as a selling tool without ever exploring their application.

I had hoped that after near 2 decades of work on yhe subject being available, most schools would have evolved. But in the olden days kata were a talking point, not a guideline for training. The mystery surrounding them was a way for the teacher to look like some keeper of deeper knowledge when the truth was that almost no one under the Shotokan banner had the first clue why you should practice the "defensive" shuto uke while moving forward.

I was lucky to start training pnly a couple of years before most of the work in the field of kata application was just starting to be published. That being said, there's really no excuse for anyone training post 2010 to not know how to use kata. The internet is the most amazing information resource in human history and it has been filled with kata application.

So given that Leviathan has only found his way now to a potential resource to understand kata after he has abandoned the practice it makes me wonder if deriding TMA wasn't his main reason to find this forum?

No judgement if it is, I don't mind a good argument. But I am curious why he (you) never went looking for answers online when you were training in Shotokan?

Anyway, this is one of the better video examples of the potential of kata.

I suspect my Shotokan instructor was frustrated with this approach. I only trained Shotokan with him for several months (he was also my Judo instructor, and that was my focus), but I don't recall ever learning or seeing a single kata. I think he'd had enough of the approach you refer to, and had decided to teach without them, though that's just supposition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If it's any consolation you aren't the only one, many who post on here do, perhaps Abernethy isn't so common outside the UK. It's a Scottish surname.

I can't remember ever seeing it before I ran into Iain's name in print. For that matter, his first name is unusual out here, too. I still can't type "Iain" correctly - I always have to go back and fix it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hi guys, I am new here. My name is Carlos and I am wondering if anyone could help me find a good Shotokan class during the day?
I work in Central London and would like to go back into training and a daytime class would be just ideal for me. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Hey, Carlos - welcome to Martial Talk!

In general, you'll get better responses by starting a new thread with an appropriate title, so folks who aren't reading this thread will see what you're looking for.

 

[DaveB]

Hi guys, I am new here. My name is Carlos and I am wondering if anyone could help me find a good Shotokan class during the day?
I work in Central London and would like to go back into training and a daytime class would be just ideal for me. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Hi Carlos, I train at a good little class in Marylebone that comes with some great perks in the training.

If that's too far west I may know one or two other good places.

Private message me and we can discuss.

 

[DaveB]

I suspect my Shotokan instructor was frustrated with this approach. I only trained Shotokan with him for several months (he was also my Judo instructor, and that was my focus), but I don't recall ever learning or seeing a single kata. I think he'd had enough of the approach you refer to, and had decided to teach without them, though that's just supposition.

Do you mean frustrated with teaching kata for performance art, or with teaching karate based on kata coded principles?

I'd be very surprised if it's the latter.

Perhaps you can get him to clarify his views for us to discuss?

 

[Headhunter]

Ah great another thread that's turned into a traditional art vs combat sport thread. If people don't like kata that's up to them. If people like it that's up to them. Kata is never going to be extinguished from karate or whatever and is it useful for fighting? To a degree yes, it's a learning tool nothing more. Can you defend yourself by doing nothing but kata? No but I don't think there's any instructor who claims that you can. To me kata is just movements to practice to get a good sweat up and to flow through stuff without thinking. When I'm working mine it's so tuned into memory I don't even need to think when I'm doing it I can just go to move from the next instinctively

 

[Carlos Joaquim]

Hi guys, I am new here.
I am looking to go back to training Shotokan.
Does anyone know a daytime class somewhere in London?
I work in Central London and have the time just can't find the place. Anyone who can help me?

 

[DaveB]

Hi guys, I am new here.
I am looking to go back to training Shotokan.
Does anyone know a daytime class somewhere in London?
I work in Central London and have the time just can't find the place. Anyone who can help me?

If by daytime you mean during working hours, you won't find one.

Classes are nearly always evenings to catch a wider audience.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ah great another thread that's turned into a traditional art vs combat sport thread. If people don't like kata that's up to them. If people like it that's up to them. Kata is never going to be extinguished from karate or whatever and is it useful for fighting? To a degree yes, it's a learning tool nothing more. Can you defend yourself by doing nothing but kata? No but I don't think there's any instructor who claims that you can. To me kata is just movements to practice to get a good sweat up and to flow through stuff without thinking. When I'm working mine it's so tuned into memory I don't even need to think when I'm doing it I can just go to move from the next instinctively

Interesting what you say about doing the kata without thinking/ using automatic memory. What I find is that yes, the choreography itself is something that I do not need to actively think about in order to remember. But I do think very deliberately about every move, as I do them. If I don’t do that then I miss a lot of details and I don’t get much benefit from the practice.

I try to make sure every movement is as correct as I can make it, and don’t just race to the end of the form for the sake of completing the form.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you mean frustrated with teaching kata for performance art, or with teaching karate based on kata coded principles?

I'd be very surprised if it's the latter.

Perhaps you can get him to clarify his views for us to discuss?

He passed away many years ago, and he and I never discussed his thoughts on kata - it never came up since he didn't teach them. We talked a lot more about rock climbing - he was my dad's primary climbing partner for years, and he and I spent more time hanging out (literally) together on cliff faces than we did training MA.

EDIT: Forgot to finish my reply. I suspect he was frustrated with the over-selling of the importance of kata, making the kata more important than the actual techniques and application, which happened some back then.