Feedback for AIKIA, Independent TKD

[Aikia]

Woah, there MichicanTKD. You seem pretty hostile. Bet you didn't know I have always favored Bear Archery (Grayling Michigan) and one summer I could play all the Ted Nugent( isn't he from Mich?) lead tracts on Cat Scratch Fever. I'am a Michigan fan. Now here is where you misjudge me. You assume that "Free Dan Testing" means big money for me and easy promotions for my instructors. Wrong on both counts. You don't make anything from free testing. Here's the important part. See, I don't charge for dan testing ( I do not promote first dan personally. You need to have earned a 1st dan from your actual instructor) because I choose not to be influenced by money. In AIKIA skill talks and money walks. You can't buy an AIKIA diploma. You can only earn it. I mean it when I say rank should be an honor not an expense.
Now if you were to send me $500 and you had limited skill, and let's say I had a car payment due or something, I could be tempted to sell you the diploma just for the cash. Never happens in AIKIA. Don't need the money. I'am a college professor, remember?
When I was a low dan rank many years ago I was constantly paying money to the organization and to a master instructor. The master would come into town take a quick look at my students, hand me some diplomas and take my money. After I became a master instructor I was invited to set on a board with a well known Grand Master. We tested over 100 college students in a few hours. A few were good. Most were average and several were poor. They all passed. Some received black belts. The Grandmaster left town with colse to $5000 in his pocket! I decided then that when I was in the leadership position I would do things differently. And I have.
Beleive it or not Michigan, I am here to serve. It does cost a lot to buy advertising space in the magazines. But much (and in some years all) of the profit goes to charity. AIKIA sponsored martial arts instruction in Iran and Iraq for orphans of the war. We have donated over $5000 to Christian charities. All of our agents receive a greater percentage from the sale of membership certificates and rank certificates than is paid to the organization. I know from experience what it is like to be a struggeling school owner who sees the profits go to an organization or master. In AIKIA you, the instructor, make the profit.
I know all this must be radical to some. Others will say what is he really after? Truth is I was the low man on the totem once. Now I am free to give in a manner I had hoped someone would have given to me.
And, by the way Michigan, dans that use profanity in print fail to reflect the character traits that we teach in TKD.

MJS thanks for your encouragement.

Jerry Beasley, Ed.D.

 

[Zepp]

And you're damn right I'll question Bill Wallace's credentials. Greatest kicker/kickboxer who ever lived? Matter of opinion, though I understand he was quite good. Black Belt Hall of Fame member? Could care less. Published in all the magazines? So what. 10th Dan? In what? Kickboxing? Again, kickboxing is a sport, not a martial art. I don't care what "panel" awarded him 10th Dan. As they say, don't believe the hype.

Michigan,
You should read up a bit on Joe Lewis if you haven't already. Before becoming a kickboxer he trained in Okinawan karate and then in Tae Kwon Do under Jhoon Rhee. I think he calls what he teaches Karate, but that hardly means that it excludes Tae Kwon Do. Don't get too hung up on names.

I don't know if you're objecting to the fact that Dr. Beasley calls what he does "Tae Kwon Do," but if that is part of what you're trying to say, you may want to express your opinion on this thread, instead of attacking someone's credentials here.

 

[Miles]

As master instructor to the independent TKD dan holder I must be able to determine whether or not the performer has met creteria that would indicate that he/she understands and can apply "independent theory" regarding their performance of TKD. (substantial editing by Miles)

As an independent TKD black belt I ask instructors to cross train not to earn a green belt in one style, a brown belt in another, but to discover how as independent TKD practitioners they can best prepare for combat if they must face experts in other diciplines. The independent TKD practitioner must be prepared for combat at long range in which TKD excells and at trap/clinch range and ground grappling where TKD is not sufficient. In so doing they supplement their TKD with superior skills. They do not need to make their art work because it is all they have. Rather they may adapt their TKD to best serve the purpose of self defense. That is why we are independent. We are free to make choices that we feel can better prepare us for success.
Dr.Beasley

I agree that this thread has become very interesting and appreciate the input of all.

Dr. Beasley, I think the concept of cross-training is fine but am concerned that folks with a weekend seminar in arnis/hapkido/judo, etc. are being ranked. I think exposing TKD folks to these arts (and those practitioners to TKD) can be healthy for all. The art does not make the practitioner.

As far as ranking in TKD, I agree with MichiganTKD that having non-TKD Masters convening a board and conveying rank does not lend credibility. I do not think one has to be Asian to hold high rank in MA (GM Ed Sell is a 9th dan Kukkiwon and Chung Do Kwan), but agree that to get that status means substantial contributions have been made to the MA. I am not saying you have not made substantial contributions, you may very well have done so.

Miles

 

[Miles]

Woah, there MichicanTKD. You seem pretty hostile. Bet you didn't know I have always favored Bear Archery (Grayling Michigan) and one summer I could play all the Ted Nugent( isn't he from Mich?) lead tracts on Cat Scratch Fever. I'am a Michigan fan. >>

OK, very much off topic, but the Fred Bear Museum was outstanding. I'll never forget the huge Kodiac bear on display. I hail from N. MI. I believe Ted Nugent lives in MichiganTKD's area (didn't you say Ypsi?)

Miles

 

[MJS]

MJS thanks for your encouragement.

You're quite welcome Sir! :asian:

Mike

 

[The Kai]

I would ask that if you find the structure, training and philosophy in TKD so utter lacking why still using the name? Since, you are not techncally offering "higher" level training in TKD, but traing in outside arts to gain higher ranking why not use the American karate tag?

IMHO Michigan TKD is a adult, if he chioses to support, stay loyal and remain committed was at one time admirable. If you dismiss these qualities as simple brainwashing I think (again opinion) you do a disservice to the open mindedness you represent.

IMHO Bill Wallce I don't think it would be a strech to say any TKD or karate'ka today has been influenced by Wallace's streching or Kicking Concepts. However, is it 10 dan material? What Kata's does he do? Wallace himself in print and in person has been dimissive of the Black Belt?Rank issue. I find it "Odd" that someone would promote someone who has no respect for the rank. I also find it suspect that he even accepted the rank
2cents worth yet?
Todd

 

[Aikia]

Very interesting replys. I was trained accademicaly as a sosiologist. My doctoral dissertation in Education focused on "An examination of the social relations and group configurations in a modern day adaptation of the ancient oriental martial art". I was primarily a TKD instructor when I finished the doctorate at VA Tech. As far a group loyalties are concerned things have not changed so much since the 1970's.
Yassar Arafat just died. He was hailed as a despised dictator by some, as a loyal king by others. It is interesting how two groups may view the same event and draw such different conclusions. I recognize that there are loyal bonds held by some who practice traditional TKD. I applaud your sincerity. However, there is no need to demonstrate a threat response and attack the messenger's credibility or position.
Research shows that in the US, TKD has become a generic name to classify Korean methods (do) of kicking (tae) and punching (kwon). When we use the word taekwondo we give credit to the Korean heritage. In this manner we are together, some traditional, some independent. Good luck in your future practice.
Jerry Beasley Ed.D.

 

[Marginal]

I applaud your sincerity. However, there is no need to demonstrate a threat response and attack the messenger's credibility or position.

"WTF is corrupt!"
"ITF is ruled by N Koreans, so I've heard!"
"I too once thought I had to worship asians to gain rank, but then..."

Indeed....

 

[The Kai]

Oh, I applaud your perceptiveness

Todd

 

[MichiganTKD]

A. Yes I am from Michigan (Jackson to be exact) B. Can't stand Ted Nugent. I think he is an arrogant self-righteous SOB personally. Why do people think that everyone in Michigan worships or admires Ted Nugent?
Anyway, your description about the ranking process just proves my point. There is only one person in the world who can recommend me, and one person who receives my testing fee-my Instructor. He knows me, my technique, my mind, my life, and my credibility. He alone determines my eligibility to test.
Why do we pay high fees to test for Dan ranking? Several reasons. First, testing fees are income for your Instructor. Even if he has a full time job (which he does), that is still his money, because you are testing within his organization and using his name. It is his money to do as he sees fit.
Second, our organization Dan test is held in the gymnasium of our community college. Using this gym is not free and not cheap. Testing fees go to help pay for this, as well as mandatory insurance coverage. Why? Because Dan testing is a major accomplishment, something you should be proud of. Consequently, Dan testing is held in a location meant to convey high ceremony. The local dojang just wouldn't cut it.
Now, I could charge nothing or the bare minimum for Dan tests as Jerry suggests. Having no money to work with, Dan testing would consist of the testers and myself, since I would have no money to bring in reputable judges (I don't judge my own students for Dan level). The setting wold be our school, nothing different. Real exciting way to convey the pride of testing for Dan level. Don't know about you, but I'd rather pay the money and have Dan testing be something I could tell my grandkids about. I've brought students to these testings. They see for themselves the lights, the Masters' banners, the pomp and ceremony, and feel very proud to be a member of the organization.
Dan testing becomes something they feel rightly proud to be a part of.
And as for Bill Wallace, what does he contribute to martial arts that merits 10th Dan? My Instructor was the Korean national free fighting champion. After he retired from fighting, he returned to teaching and promoting traditional Tae Kwon Do. His Dan certification was recommended by Woon Kyu Uhm and presided over by a panel of Tae Kwon Do Grandmasters at the Kukkiwon. No jujitsu, no hapkido, no created-my-own-style-last-year. Tae Kwon Do Grandmasters. All known around the world.
His name is Grandmaster Tae Zee Park BTW.

 

[Miles]

Why do we pay high fees to test for Dan ranking? Several reasons. First, testing fees are income for your Instructor. Even if he has a full time job (which he does), that is still his money, because you are testing within his organization and using his name. It is his money to do as he sees fit.
Second, our organization Dan test is held in the gymnasium of our community college.

When I was a low dan rank many years ago I was constantly paying money to the organization and to a master instructor. The master would come into town take a quick look at my students, hand me some diplomas and take my money. After I became a master instructor I was invited to set on a board with a well known Grand Master. We tested over 100 college students in a few hours. A few were good. Most were average and several were poor. They all passed. Some received black belts. The Grandmaster left town with colse to $5000 in his pocket! I decided then that when I was in the leadership position I would do things differently. And I have.

Jerry Beasley, Ed.D.

Dr. Beasley, in your story the GM took home about $50/examinee. That does not seem like a huge profit on its face. (I would still be concerned about unqualified people passing however.) What are the fees charged for your organization?

MichiganTKD, you mention you pay high fees. What are the fees charged in your organization? Do you receive any of the testing fees from your organization for recommending students for promotion or for sitting on a promotion board?

Miles

 

[MichiganTKD]

Traditionally, any fees paid to an Instructor by his students when they test go to the Head of the Organization. Now, within our organization, there is some variance on that. Some of our Instructors, who are higher ranking and more autonomous, organize their own tests with guest judges they invite. The GM may or may not be there. They are more likely to keep the testing fees, since they are organizing everything. However, our Head Instructor does the same thing and does receive a cut of the fees. Understandably he is not happy about this, since he sees other Instructors getting to keep parts of the fees.
Also, the testing organizer who invites judges is obligated to either reimburse visiting judges for gas money or airfare and treat them afterward to a nice restaurant in appreciation for judging. So I am not paid to judge, but I am compensated for gas and fed well for judging. I judge regardless out of respect for those Instructors I respect and because people judged for me before. Money is not a factor, unless the testing takes place out of state and it would be difficult for me to arrange to go.

 

[Aikia]

Miles,
The testing took place in about 1983. That was a lot of money for a college TKD club. On another occassion a member told me his Korean "Master" intended to charge him $6000 for certification to 6th dan. It is better to raise monthly fees than to have the high promotion fees. Students and parents do not appreciate the often high fees. Some instructors will try to pull the wool over students eyes and argue about why they deserve the fees. And there is still the common practice of having a board to promote when only the actual instructor makes the decision. This practice is may often be an excuse for the instructors to get together at the students expense. This is true but some will argue so as to convince themselves that it is O.K. to gouge the student at test time.
When I was a full time TKD school owner from 1980-1985 I held testings every month for the small groups that qualified. At the end of the exam I would divide the money with my two instructors. We typically charged $10 per level and $30 for dan rank.
In Aikia a gup certificate is $3. This is the wholesale price to the instructor. The 1st dan is $30 (wholesale price). However, the agent may receive $2 credit per gup rank. In other words if the student has been issued all 10 gup ranks from AIKIA the $20 credit makes the cost for the dan rank only $10. The agent/instructor may and proabably does charge more at the actual test. A student membership, (wholesale price) is $7 and includes the patch and membership certificate. Agents may resale the membership for up to $20 ( showing a $13 profit per membership). We offer only membership and rank certification for income. Advice/consulting is always free. Most agents attend our Karate College summer camp for continuing education. Agent/instructors test for dan rank at no charge.
I like the idea of knowing that our agents claim that they always receive more than they pay for. Same with Karate College. For $189 participants receive Thursday-Sunday instruction with the top masters in the field. And of course many receive discounts or scholarship reductions. I beleive instructors should receive a fair fee for instruction. I do not beleive that an association should take advantage of the instructor. I see AIKIA as a service to the martial arts community, not as a job.
JB

 

[MichiganTKD]

Just out of curiosity, what Instructors do you have teaching Tae Kwon Do or other styles at the College and at these Camps?

 

[Miles]

Traditionally, any fees paid to an Instructor by his students when they test go to the Head of the Organization. Now, within our organization, there is some variance on that.

Also, the testing organizer who invites judges is obligated to either reimburse visiting judges for gas money or airfare and treat them afterward to a nice restaurant in appreciation for judging. So I am not paid to judge, but I am compensated for gas and fed well for judging.

MichiganTKD, this has also been my experience.


Miles

 

[Aikia]

Thanks for asking.
This year at Karate College 2005 we feature: Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, Renzo Gracie, Michael DePasquale, Jr., Isralie Self Defense expert Mike Lee Kanarek, CQC specialist Hock Hockiem, "The Cane Master" Mark Shuey, Combat Hapkido's John Pelligrini ( These individuals are among the most popular seminar performers nationwide. A seminar with any one instructor would typically go for $60-$100 per seminar).
All instructors work together and we do not tolerate speaking ill of other arts or instructors. The feeling is relaxed where black belts can try new things without embarrassment. Have fun. You may also spend quality "out of class" time with any instructor.
We also feature mixed martial arts experts, video artist and renowned authors including Walt Lysak, and Mark Hatmaker. And this year we will have "Dynamic Chucks" Paladin Press video artist and performer Mitch Thomas.
Olympic TKD champion Danny Dring , TKD master instructor Greg Ferry and Korean martial arts master Jim Sams, executive TKD sparring champ Danny Chapman, Tang Soo Do master Ian Marshall ( I also teach in the TKD section) round out the style specific TKD section. All of the TKD experts can easily move from TKD to kickboxing to submissions etc.
We also feature JKD and Filipino martial arts expert David Durch, Pressure point master Robert Cutrel, Kickboxing champ Mike Allen, Tai Chi expert James Houston and Kung Fu Grandmaster Simon Kwon.
We have a special Kids program hosted by former Chuck Norris/ KDOOA instructor and TKD champ Twila Shuler. The Kid's program is housed in it's own room and each instructor teaches child specific skills. There are also speacility seminars in "dojo management", "teaching techniques" just for instructors. If you have ever had an interest in other arts this is the place to answer questions.
There are four classes being held every hour. Instruction begins on Thursday at 3p.m. ( ends at 9p.m.) Classes run continuously Friday and Saturday from 8a.m. through 9p.m., and Sunday from 8a.m.-12p.m.. No you do not have to attend every class. Take as many classes as you want for one price of $199! There are group discounts. You can stay and eat on the Radford University campus for as little as $69 total (three nights included with meals!), or off campus in hotels. You may receive continuing education college credit. This will be our 17th year.
Remember my mission is to make shure you receive more than you pay for. If you have only practiced one style it will be an eye-opener. I garauntee it!
Jerry Beasley Ed.D.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Jerry,

With few exceptions, I've never heard of anyone you listed. I've heard of John Pellegrini, but only because there is a debate in the MA community as to how legitimate his credentials are. Not exactly a model of esteemed stature. The TKD Instructors? I've never heard of any of them. Then again, I practice traditional TKD, not TKD mixed with JKD/kickboxing/submission. So I wouldn't know anybody in those circles. Something tells me you wouldn't have any traditional Tae kwon Do Instructors there.
As for being able to seamlessly move from Tae Kwon Do to kickboxing to grappling, all the Instructors I know have devoted their lives to Tae Kwon Do. Are they acqainted with the above? Possibly. Could they lead a seminar in any of them? Nope. That is not where they devoted their energies.
Got a feeling not too many white uniforms there either.

 

[Aikia]

Michican,
It helps to stay up with current events. If you read Blcack Belt you will recognize most of the professionals that come from across the US. One reason for practiicing TKD is to be able to use it in self defense. It is possible and proabable- that, that area is not of interest to you. Independent TKD practitioners found out long ago the any art is limited. All arts have boundaries. Tkd does not pretend to prepare the individual for CQC ( that is close quarters combat, a popular term being used today). Nor has TKD ever had a method for ground defense. My own TKD instructor use to teach us judo and took pride in the fact that he was judo trained (1960's). I have simply advanced the tradition of being fully prepared for combat by operating from the principle of inclusion.
The same can be said of competition as a facet of TKD instruction. If you can only spar one way ( choose Olympic methos, contact, point, non-contact etc) how can you claim to have mastered TKD? My students are encouraged to experience each method and develop expertise in the method that works best for them. What you must mean is that in your TKD universe you are very good at doing the things you feel comfortable doing and have always done. I want to help others find freedom from the boundaries of their limited style. Some would say "It was good enough for my master, it is good enough for me". Others would claim "We are ultra-right wing conservatives in TKD and we refuse to entertain the concept of inclusion". Michagan, I can tell from your banner you would reject the conservative approach.

Research from police studies shows that approximately 50% of all confrontations are engaged at CQC. The other 50% takes place on the ground. When people get mad thay want to grab each other.Occassionally two fighters stay at TKD distance for a long range exchange. It would indeed be a wounderful thing if attackers would keep their distance and attempt to perform kicks and long range punches, the subject matter of traditional TKD.. That does happen in the movies. In real life we have found that we must supplement our art with knowledge at close ( toe to toe) range and ground range. It is not my argument to claim that one art works better than another nor to claim that TKD is not a complete art if you limit your options.
Modern independent TKD has it's merits just as does the conservative traditional TKD. In America we do not need to exclude one way in order to promote the other.
JB

 

[MJS]

WOW! This has certainly turned into an interesting topic. 3 pages and 38 posts later, and whats been accomplished?? I'd like to say a few things here.

First off, Jerry, I think that what you're doing is great! You're going out, getting people familiar with your org., bringing in some top notch people, and spreading the arts, all of which are excellent things. IMO, people have a choice...stay independant, stay with the org. of their art, or join up with you, and at least have a base of people to follow.

Things change, and IMO, its good, despite what others think, to keep up with the current times. IE- new fighting methods, exploring all ranges of combat, etc. and its apparent to me, that you're doing a great job of this. Again, you're bringing in some quality people, as I have heard of many of them.

MichiganTKD- You obviously are happy with what you're doing and your org. That being said, why should it concern you with what Jerry is doing? If you're not interested in what he's doing, don't join!! There are obviously people out there that like what hes doing. As for John Pelligrini...I had the chance to attend a seminar with him a few years back, and IMO, he had some great skill and alot to offer. It also appears to me that people are not happy with him because he did that forbidden thing...make some changes to his art, make mods. etc. Again, like Jerry, he also has a large following. Once again, if you're not interested, and it appears you're not, don't join. You appear happy and content with what you're doing.

Mike

 

[Disco]

I've sat back and watched this thread unfold. A few overviews.........
Cross training has always been practiced, even by the old masters. As for TKD not being adequate for CQC, I will agree that what is being taught today in many dojangs is sorely wanting. But that was not the case in the early days when TKD first entered our shores. Old school TKD touched on many aspects of combat, including ground tactics. As was stated, "Nor has TKD ever had a method for ground defense". We were not taught to STAY on the ground and fight, we were taught to get up asap by using techniques that would permit such an action. Perhaps some were never informed of these training aspects.

I understand where MichTKD is coming from and agree with some of his points of contention. As for the Mr. P. debate. His technical prowess is not the main issue, it's the background to his rankings that seem to be in question. There are more than enough other threads devoted to this issue to warrant scrutiny.

I think that MichTKD's main point of contention with Mr. Beasley is that this thread was started to serve as a promotional platform to generate business. I just don't recall a thread of this nature being introduced before, by an outside agent.

Not meant to disrespect any of the parties involved, just offering a seperate viewpoint. :asian: