Family-friendly vs. ruthless: responsible teaching

[puunui]

Great. And I'd like to see any sort of evidence that you're interested in looking objectively at what someone who you have insulted says.

If you don't wish to respond or participate, then just say so and that will be the end of it.

 

[K-man]

I think most martial arts students out there are unable to adequately defend themselves. I think most students (and teachers) are fooling themselves in believing that they can against someone whose skill level is beyond the ordinary or untrained. I think it is unreasonable to think that you will develop any sort of high skill level going to class once or twice per week, 45 minutes per class. I think those who have trained for a long time intuitively understand all of this. I think that it is the big unspoken secret that permeates traditional martial arts, especially in this, the MMA era. That ten move groin kicking, eye poking, head stomping, throat ripping one step sparring routine #43 your instructor worked so hard on developing just will not work against someone who is shooting for your legs and intent on grounding and pounding you.

At the weekend I participated in a unarmed vs knife workshop. In one way I was disadvantaged by being partnered with 'The Kung Fu Kid', a young expert who knew all there was to know about karate and wing chung. From what I heard I think he had a total of around three years total training but he knew it all. What he couldn't understand was how I kept putting him on the ground and ending up with the knife. His most common phrase for the time ... "Can you do that again?" or "How did you do that?" My classes are all 2.5 hours and we are always within arms length. We defend against shooting as well as all the other common attacks but rather than train #43, where you might have to stop and think "what comes next?", we work on what naturally flows next. So as you said, people like "The Kid" and his teacher are deluding themselves if they think what they are training will work on the street.

 

[puunui]

If true, your first statement is a horrific indictment of the martial arts community as a whole. I would prefer that you be wrong, but you doubtlessly are right to an extent.

That said I do not know that most of us are necessarily training our students to be victorious over highly skilled fighters. That certainly is not the goal in my TKD class nor do I have any illusions that my students there will attain any great level of skill by and large. First the talent has to be there. Unless we select only those with the physical and mental aspects to excel, we will turn out exactly what we generally do: mostly middle class people in all shapes and sizes who just want some exercise and some SD skills. That doesn't exactly spell 'deadly warrior' to me.

What I aim for is for the student to be successful in common bullying or domestic violence situations. Maybe even an occasional bar fight or in extreme cases, a mugging. On that level, I do believe what I teach within the limited time frame allocated can be a good solution.

How about for yourself? Is that level of skill enough for you, or do you want something more? Don't you want to see just how far you can take your martial arts? Don't you want to go all the way with it?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Did you read both Justice Scalia's opinion and Justice Stevens' opinion before you decided that you agreed with Justice Scalia?

No, I think I agreed with Justice Scalia before I read either opinion.

 

[puunui]

No, I think I agreed with Justice Scalia before I read either opinion.

Personally, I approached the whole 2nd Amendment issue like how I approach most everything, starting from having no opinion. I guess what I am trying to say is that I approached the issue from a truth seeking or factual perspective, as opposed to from an agenda.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If true, your first statement is a horrific indictment of the martial arts community as a whole. I would prefer that you be wrong, but you doubtlessly are right to an extent.

That said I do not know that most of us are necessarily training our students to be victorious over highly skilled fighters. That certainly is not the goal in my TKD class nor do I have any illusions that my students there will attain any great level of skill by and large. First the talent has to be there. Unless we select only those with the physical and mental aspects to excel, we will turn out exactly what we generally do: mostly middle class people in all shapes and sizes who just want some exercise and some SD skills. That doesn't exactly spell 'deadly warrior' to me.

What I aim for is for the student to be successful in common bullying or domestic violence situations. Maybe even an occasional bar fight or in extreme cases, a mugging. On that level, I do believe what I teach within the limited time frame allocated can be a good solution.

I agree with this. I didnt do tkd to learn how to fight. There were many reasons I started to train and knowing how to beat someone up was not one of them. I think though, that anyone who trains at a reputable school should have no worries disposing of "average joe" on the street. It is unrealistic to think though, that someone who does MA as a hobby a couple of times a week is going to be any chance against someone who trains 5 or 6 days a week and combines it with weights and fitness training, and anybody who thinks otherwise is just kidding themself. Whether or not you can defend yourself on the street is all relative, defend yourself against who? Ive seen enough pub fights and street fights to know that the average guy on the street really cant fight very well at all, and if one of these guys got the better of you after 5 or more years of training you would really start to question what you are being taught.

 

[dancingalone]

How about for yourself? Is that level of skill enough for you, or do you want something more? Don't you want to see just how far you can take your martial arts? Don't you want to go all the way with it?

At the risk of seeming immodest, I am very good. Certainly better than most I've run across and I make it a point of 'hitting the floor' with most anyone willing to share their time and skill in a variety of disciplines, sporting and traditional. This shouldn't be too surprising I hope since I was a full-time martial artist for many years. These days I am somewhat slowed by family life and middle age, but I stay as sharp as I can. We are a martial family (wife is an aikido teacher) and martial arts is wrapped up into the fiber of our lives.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Personally, I approached the whole 2nd Amendment issue like how I approach most everything, starting from having no opinion. I guess what I am trying to say is that I approached the issue from a truth seeking or factual perspective, as opposed to from an agenda.

Perhaps there was a time when I did as well. However that was long ago when the earth was still cooling and the Dinosaurs roamed. As a third year law student in 1979-1980 I interned with the State prosecutor and among the cases prosecuted were unlawful gun ownership charges. Later I defended some cases as well. That was coupled with being just north of Chicago which instuted an outright ban on guns as well as an instructor of mine who was a Village Trustee of one adjoining suburb that banned gun ownership.

There were also local cases where a homeowner defended his home from an intruder by shooting him. That suburb also banned hand guns. The state refused to prosecute him, but the suburb still did and as I recall obtained a conviction. The intruder who lived was also convicted.

A couple of weeks after the intruder was released from jail, he was caught after burgalrizing a house a couple of blocks from where he got shot.

So, with such experiences "close to home" it was well beyond my mindset to have no opinion by the time the gun ownership ban issue got to the US supreme court for the first time, let alone the second time.

 

[Earl Weiss]

At the weekend I participated in a unarmed vs knife workshop............... What he couldn't understand was how I kept putting him on the ground and ending up with the knife. ............................

I need to know where you are so if the oppoertunity arises we can get to gether . I am just North of Chicago. Please look me up if you are in town.

This is a level of skill I need to explore further. I have been thru about 6 knife defense courses. One was the PPCT edged weapons course. (PPCT is designed for and used by LEO's). When it came to unarmed versus the knife the guy with the knife typicaly cut the snot out of the other guy 90% of the time at these courses. Succesful controls / disarms were achieved less than 10% of the time.

 

[chrispillertkd]

If you don't wish to respond or participate, then just say so and that will be the end of it.

I have no problem with conversing with pretty much anyone, Glenn. But you've shown me that you have no interest in actually listening to anything I say since you still have a chip on your shoulder about me posting on the Dojang Digest. As I said, if you can offer any sort of evidence that would indicate you can be open minded I'd gladly offer you my answers.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Grenadier]

This is the Tae Kwon Do forum.

While the subject of the Second Amendment is always a welcome discussion, such matter is better suited for either the Firearms forum, or the Study.

That being said, let's return this conversation back to the original topic.

Thank you.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator