Fakes, Frauds and Wanna BeeeZZZZ

[VSanhodo]

Ok, now first off, Im not starting this as bashing board. Merely relating an expierence I went through for a friend of mine recently. I encourage you to post you own such stories but please if at all possible lets not use names to protect the guilty and to not offend the MODS, I would kinda like to see where this one goes.

Several weeks ago a long time friend of mine moved to Florida. Seems in his area there were several schools he was interested in attending. when he finally choose one, He asked me to check on the guys credentials, so I did.

The owner claimed to teach Hwarang DO, Aikido and several other arts. So I went onto the net and contacted the HwarangDO headquarters in California. They said without a doubt this guy was NOT a known teacher of their system. They are now in the process of working with this guy through attorneys to get him to stop advertising he is teaching HwarangDo. Seems he is also the Grandmaster of his own system of Aikido. Well after checking he claims to be a student of a Legit High Ranking Aikido Instructor out of Washington DC, Whom I know. I placed a call. Seems the Grandmaster has only taken a few classes and attended a few seminars. Hmmmmmmm begining to sound suspicious. Now third this guy is a memeber of one of the hall of fame / soke council etc. Well it now turns out that Yes he is a memeber and sits on the board but it is this same group who recognized his Aikido system based on his HWD credientials and other probably dubious credientials as well.
I dont get it, in todays modern times, with the internet at your fingertips, You can check on ppl very very quickly. I checked out everyone of my daughters school teachers. Verified thier credentials and did a criminal background check on them as well. I dont apologize for doing any of this, First its my daughter and her safety and wellfare are my primary concern. If she were looking for a martial arts school I would do the samething, I would check out the owner and instructors at the school, They are martial artist not Gods
As many Fakes, Frauds and overnight wonders as there are in the business of martial arts teaching god knows what, If I were looking for a school for myself, your darn right I would check out the instructors and keep checking until I got to verifable credientials / lineage.
Im looking for your thoughts on this, your expierences etc.

Thanks

San

 

[lonekimono10]

what i want to know is did you do anything about this man?? and did you tell your friend about him??? you know i went over this a while back with a person here in New Jersey and was told to let it go , he/she will answer in the long run.
But you are right in what you did.

 

[VSanhodo]

I live in a different location than my friend but O YEAH, I let him know what I found and even went os far as to contact the newspaper where the school is located with a letter to the editior.

Sadly there is actually little a person can do to actually shut down this type of operation but we all need to be far more careful.

Thanks

San

 

[terryl965]

Well first off not to sound a little discourage here, It would be impossible for every single student to be in a data base. I personally belong to USA TKD and AAU and I'm registered with both and through the Kukkiwon, now here is the catch before TKD i study Okinawa Karate under my father and his partner my certificates are signed by them and no one else. Now does that make it not so because you do not know them and back in those days there was no governing body taking care of cert. People put so much value in a piece of paper that is registred somewhere for the most part those organizations are money hungry ego driven social clubs in my opion. I know I'm for real I was there and did 12-16 hours a day training to be where I'm at today. I do understand your point about wanting to know your instructor but I see no-way every claim can be made to be verified. This fine country we live in give's people the right to do what they choose, so many instructor I know of learn from video for years and now supposealy know more than me and never trained with a real Master in there life, maybe ateended a seminar or got there picture with some great Master while was there and say's I trained with him wow for a day or two that's not training.

Sorry I'll get of my soapbox.
Terry lee Stoker

 

[shesulsa]

The owner claimed to teach Hwarang DO, Aikido and several other arts. So I went onto the net and contacted the HwarangDO headquarters in California. They said without a doubt this guy was NOT a known teacher of their system. They are now in the process of working with this guy through attorneys to get him to stop advertising he is teaching HwarangDo. Seems he is also the Grandmaster of his own system of Aikido. Well after checking he claims to be a student of a Legit High Ranking Aikido Instructor out of Washington DC, Whom I know. I placed a call. Seems the Grandmaster has only taken a few classes and attended a few seminars. Hmmmmmmm begining to sound suspicious. Now third this guy is a memeber of one of the hall of fame / soke council etc. Well it now turns out that Yes he is a memeber and sits on the board but it is this same group who recognized his Aikido system based on his HWD credientials and other probably dubious credientials as well.
I dont get it, in todays modern times, with the internet at your fingertips, You can check on ppl very very quickly. I checked out everyone of my daughters school teachers. Verified thier credentials and did a criminal background check on them as well. I dont apologize for doing any of this, First its my daughter and her safety and wellfare are my primary concern. If she were looking for a martial arts school I would do the samething, I would check out the owner and instructors at the school, They are martial artist not Gods
As many Fakes, Frauds and overnight wonders as there are in the business of martial arts teaching god knows what, If I were looking for a school for myself, your darn right I would check out the instructors and keep checking until I got to verifable credientials / lineage.
Im looking for your thoughts on this, your expierences etc.

Thanks

San

Now here is where it gets interesting. Especially for people like me.

>MOD HAT OFF<

Did you know that there are many people who are no longer members of the WHRDA? Do you have any idea why? Have you investigated much about the WHRDA?

An association or organization - ANY of such - is only that; a group of people who call themselves something and claim their way is the right way and the only right way.

I have met and know some of these men who are not members of the WHRDA (though no one in Florida) and they are FINE martial artists of good character. They're far better artists than I and their training is, I assure you, legitimate.

So - what does it take, I ask you, for someone to be ousted from an Association, Organization or Council? Let's explore these possibilities. Political deviance from the SGM? Absence from meetings, discussions? Money? Personal rivalry? Gosh, I would think the list could go on and on.

And when one is ousted, who is the phony? Who is the fraud? Must there be one at all? If so, for what reason? To point a finger and call a name based upon individual emotion or need for compartmentalization?

Let's start there and then continue ....

 

[RRouuselot]

An association or organization - ANY of such - is only that; a group of people who call themselves something and claim their way is the right way and the only right way.

That’s not really true. What is it with the over generalizations on this board anyway???

I know of several organizations that don’t claim to be better than anyone or that their way is THE right way.

 

[shesulsa]

That’s not really true. What is it with the over generalizations on this board anyway???

I know of several organizations that don’t claim to be better than anyone or that their way is THE right way.

In essence and mostly, it is true, unless the organization or association is based on fellowship only and absolutely anyone can join. Though there may be a few who embody fellowship and non-judgementalism, I think those would be extremely rare.

And since you're interested in abating over-generalization, could you be more specific as to the organizations that are not based on bias of some kind?

 

[RRouuselot]

1)In essence and mostly, it is true, unless the organization or association is based on fellowship only and absolutely anyone can join. Though there may be a few who embody fellowship and non-judgementalism, I think those would be extremely rare.

2) And since you're interested in abating over-generalization, could you be more specific as to the organizations that are not based on bias of some kind?

1) It seems you went from ANY to "mostly" and "it is ture unless"

2)Be glad to……charitable organizations.



It seems you are lumping ALL organizations into one group based solely on your exposure to a limited number of them.

 

[shesulsa]

1)I guess you and I don’t hang out in the same circles.

Clearly. Different styles, different countries ... go figure.

2)Be glad to……charitable organizations.

It seems you are lumping ALL organizations into one group based solely on your exposure to a limited number of them.

Even charitable organizations have their rules and regulations, Robert. Let's look at United Way. They refuse funding to groups who do not report ethnic composition. Goodwill and Salvation Army - one must qualify for their job training programs.

And ... I thought you wanted to do away with generalizations ... ???

 

[RRouuselot]

Clearly. Different styles, different countries ... go figure.


Even charitable organizations have their rules and regulations, Robert. Let's look at United Way. They refuse funding to groups who do not report ethnic composition. Goodwill and Salvation Army - one must qualify for their job training programs.

And ... I thought you wanted to do away with generalizations ... ???

I fail to see how that supports your comment "claim their way is the right way and the only right way."

 

[shesulsa]

Ya know what, Robert? I promised the rest of the staff that I would abide by all rules of the site and sidetracking onto that discussion in this thread is against the rules. If you'd like to start another thread on this, I'd be happy to argue the point with you. But the discussion here is in the title.

 

[Andrew Green]

As many Fakes, Frauds and overnight wonders as there are in the business of martial arts teaching god knows what, If I were looking for a school for myself, your darn right I would check out the instructors and keep checking until I got to verifable credientials / lineage.
Im looking for your thoughts on this, your expierences etc.

Yup, lots of nonsense.

But I think the solution is a little different.

STOP looking at credentials and lineage. Stop making them important. Not just you, everyone. It is the credentials and lineage that get abused by these fakes to promote themselves. If Credentials and Lineage loose there relevance they won't be able to do this.

Think about it, if instructors had no certificates to hide behind and where only judged on there abilities would this be as big of problem?

 

[Jerry]

Think about it, if instructors had no certificates to hide behind and where only judged on there abilities would this be as big of problem?

Would be for the novices.

 

[Andrew Green]

Would be for the novices.

Wouldn't last long

 

[FearlessFreep]

I think his point was that novices can't judge abilities when selecting an instructor. A newbie walking into a school trying to decide on this school or the one down the street can't really look at the instructor and know or understand or judge the abilities of that instructor

'Credentials' and 'Lineage', as much as they are abused, are similar to a resume for work. They are a way of documenting what you (claim to) have done and what your abilities are; what you can offer to the person who is hiring you.

The problem with credentials and lineage, like resumes, are when people are dishonest about what they claim.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think his point was that novices can't judge abilities when selecting an instructor.

To some extent you can. And beyond that it won't take long after starting training with them to realise what there skill level is, and what there knowledge is. Once someone starts questioning they start looking around, and the truth will work its way out.

With ranks and titles many people just accept at face value anything there instructor says, simply because he's got a high rank and therefore MUST know what he is talking about to have obtained it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Most people shop on price and percieved value.

$50 a month with a 10th who has "studied" several arts looks much better than $75 a month with a lowely 4th who's only studied 1 art.

People see all the pretty papers and think "wow, he's good". He lines everyone up, barks some psudo-japanese and they think "wow, good teacher". He breaks some pine boards and they think "wow, great technique".

People shop for martial arts like they shop for toasters. What's got the most chrome, and is lightest on my pocket book.

I see part of MT's mission to help educate the general public. To let them know you can't be a Soke of Kung Fu. (Wrong title/culture/art). That 25 is a bit young to hold 10 th degrees and be a founder of a unique fighting style. That the fancy paper doesn't tell the whole story. That shopping on cost is not how to shop for martial arts training, and that the MA is about more than just "beating people up".

People get tied up on who someones teacher was.
It don't matter.
I could be trained by the gods themselves....it don't matter.
It only matters what got through my thick skull.

And that has to be shown. Not printed and stuck on a wall.

IMO.

 

[Jerry]

Wouldn't last long

To some extent you can. And beyond that it won't take long after starting training with them to realise what there skill level is, and what there knowledge is.

That's not been my experience at all. I've met many a person who has been studying inherently flawed material for decades and never known it.

Do you think that the people who entered the early UFCs and had their butts handed to them knew that there was a basic flaw in the material they were learning?

 

[Andrew Green]

Do you think that the people who entered the early UFCs and had their butts handed to them knew that there was a basic flaw in the material they were learning?

Given the standards at the time, they where studying good material. Everyone that went in was a good fighter, and many had good lineages.

The problem with claiming to be the best, or most effective is that there is always someone better.

Very simple test to see if what you are doing is effective or not. Drop as many rules as you can and go as hard as you can.

 

[MJS]

Ok, now first off, Im not starting this as bashing board. Merely relating an expierence I went through for a friend of mine recently. I encourage you to post you own such stories but please if at all possible lets not use names to protect the guilty and to not offend the MODS, I would kinda like to see where this one goes.

Several weeks ago a long time friend of mine moved to Florida. Seems in his area there were several schools he was interested in attending. when he finally choose one, He asked me to check on the guys credentials, so I did.

The owner claimed to teach Hwarang DO, Aikido and several other arts. So I went onto the net and contacted the HwarangDO headquarters in California. They said without a doubt this guy was NOT a known teacher of their system. They are now in the process of working with this guy through attorneys to get him to stop advertising he is teaching HwarangDo. Seems he is also the Grandmaster of his own system of Aikido. Well after checking he claims to be a student of a Legit High Ranking Aikido Instructor out of Washington DC, Whom I know. I placed a call. Seems the Grandmaster has only taken a few classes and attended a few seminars. Hmmmmmmm begining to sound suspicious. Now third this guy is a memeber of one of the hall of fame / soke council etc. Well it now turns out that Yes he is a memeber and sits on the board but it is this same group who recognized his Aikido system based on his HWD credientials and other probably dubious credientials as well.
I dont get it, in todays modern times, with the internet at your fingertips, You can check on ppl very very quickly. I checked out everyone of my daughters school teachers. Verified thier credentials and did a criminal background check on them as well. I dont apologize for doing any of this, First its my daughter and her safety and wellfare are my primary concern. If she were looking for a martial arts school I would do the samething, I would check out the owner and instructors at the school, They are martial artist not Gods
As many Fakes, Frauds and overnight wonders as there are in the business of martial arts teaching god knows what, If I were looking for a school for myself, your darn right I would check out the instructors and keep checking until I got to verifable credientials / lineage.
Im looking for your thoughts on this, your expierences etc.

Thanks

San

IMO, I think that its good to research and do your homework. People ask all the time, "I want to start training, but how do I know what to look for?" I certainly wouldn't lump all instructors from "X" art into the same category if you happened to come across something that was suspect. I think that many times, people are impressed with what they see when they first enter the school...Ex: lots of flash, fancy uniforms, lots of stripes, etc., and they assume that they're going to be training under someone who's legit. Maybe they will be and may be they won't be, but IMHO, I'd look more into who they train(ed) under, what org. they may be a part of, etc.

Its really no different than enrolling in college, buying a house, car, or a new appliance. You want to get whats going to suit you best.

Just my .02.

Mike