dancingalone
Grandmaster
I hope this isn't too big of a digression... Ankle pick is the term I think you are looking for.
Facts, Fiction, Lies and actual accounts
- Thread starter terryl965
- Start date
I hope this isn't too big of a digression... Ankle pick is the term I think you are looking for.
True. But from what I have seen, most KKW schools pretty much stop at WTF sparring. As I said, that is based on my personal observation; not based on any sort of hard data.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
Understand your point but my experience is that 1 step, 3 step, freestyle SD sparring are very much alive and well in schools where the BBs are KKW certified. I guess we just have different experiences then?
Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
SahBumNimRush
Master of Arts
That is a very good way to put it Daniel. Unlike the older TKD form sets which are somewhat reinterpreted Karate forms (i.e. high kicks vs. lower kicks, which totally change the intent of the movement), modern TKD forms are unified in standard because we know who the creators of the form are and what their intent of movement is, a.k.a. the KKW standard.
There are different 'flavors' of performing the older TKD forms, because, just as their Japanese and Okinawan counterparts, there is no one single unifying standard. This is not the case, as I understand it, with the KKW.
I have more freedom with intent, because I do practice the older forms, which as punisher pointed out, there are in fact layers of intent with the movements. I would like to point out, that when teaching these "layers," it does not change how the movement is executed, only a different intent with the movement.
Can you apply the same nature to a KKW form? I don't know since I don't practice them, but I'm confident that you probably could. The major difference being that, it sounds as though there was never multiple layers put in place by the creators of the form. So it is what it is. Like you put it, there is ONE, and only one, proper explanation to the movements in your forms. If you try to say that it IS a different movement, then you are wrong. IF, you practice other techniques that fit into the same movements found in your forms, then you may find some benefit for doing so, but that all depends on your focus of training.
I'd say that we all have different experiences.
The school where I did the majority of my training in this century had hanbon and sambon gyorugi, freestyle, and WTF the first few years that I trained there. Then Kim KJN began teaching hapkido as a separate course of study and freestyle migrated to hapkido and the hanbon and sambon gyorugi were kind of orphaned.
The fact that he was running two schools forty miles apart and lived north of one of them I think really affected how he ran the classes; not to say that they were bad; just more streamlined. I don't know what its like now, as I haven't been there in over a year. The dojang that I have been associated with since then is also an HKD and TKD school, but Disney KJN (not making up the name!) seems to do more crossover between the two. Of course, she isn't also teaching kendo.
I think that you can, but if you don't have a foundation in Kukki taekwondo, you shouldn't. In fact, I'd say that if you are below third dan you probably shouldn't because it takes that long to develop a thorough understanding of the forms and to perfect your practice of them correctly without any reinterpretations.
If you do decide to reinterpret the execution of the pumse at that point, then it is not because there are multiple interpretations of the form but that you are engaging in a training exercise of your own.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion Daniel. I would simply suggest that there are many people who don't share that opinion. If you, or anyone is interested in some additional research then, in addition to the resources I'v already mentioned, I would offer the Totally TKD e-magazine put out by Master Anslow. It is free, back issues are available to download and is an incredibly rich cross-section of TKD material. I've written for the magazine as have several other MT members. And even if alternate applications in forms isn't of interest, as mentioned, they have a rich cross-section of interest to those in (and out) of TKD. Stuff for sports, SD, forms, conditioning etc.
Cheers
Cheers
To what are you referring? I've made several posts on this thread today.
Last edited:
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
I suspect that it may regional. The only time I've seen one step or three step sparring at the dojangs I've trained at here in Korea was when an instructor from the UK was teaching the class. Nearly all of our sparring related activities are basically done under WTF rules.
I think that a lot of people's perceptions are based on regional norms.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Out of curiosity, who did invent the KKW patterns? I mean who created each individual pattern? I know specifically who created two of them (and one of those is a Palgwe, not a Taeguk), but I'd love to know the names of each individual responsible for each Palgwe, each Taeguk, and each black belt form. Anyone have a list of people as they relate to each pattern? When I trained at a KKW school for a couple of years in college way back in the day getting information like this was like pulling teeth so I'd love any information you (or anyone else) could provide!
Pax,
Chris
I'll have to dig, but I'm pretty sure they were developed by a committee and not by any single person.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I hope senility is not setting in, but I seem to recall reading a discussion here about the process of creation of the poomsae. Authorship of each separate form would have been a 2 person collaboration at the most, though the committee ultimately 'ratified' which poomsae were picked. (Personally I think it would be interesting to see the rejected poomsae, but I am sure that opportunity has long passed us.)
If someone is able to correct me, I'm all ears.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
I'd appreciate any information you could find because I was under the impression that each Kwan (or almost each) got a representative on the commmittee and then each rep did one poomsae. I could obviously be wrong, but I know there are two very well known Taekwon-Doin who are generally credited with being responsible for one poomsae each.
Also, FWIW, I early said that you could see some "old" karate type techniques in one of the KKW black belt poomsae (I think I said it in this thread, anyway) and mentioned Chonkwon. I meamt Pyongwon. Chonkwon has a bit of a Chinese feel to certain sections of it (which makes me wonder if it was designed by someone from the Chang Moo Kwan or possibly even the Kang Duk Won).
Pax,
Chris
Also, FWIW, I early said that you could see some "old" karate type techniques in one of the KKW black belt poomsae (I think I said it in this thread, anyway) and mentioned Chonkwon. I meamt Pyongwon. Chonkwon has a bit of a Chinese feel to certain sections of it (which makes me wonder if it was designed by someone from the Chang Moo Kwan or possibly even the Kang Duk Won).
Pax,
Chris
I'm not questioning the application. I think we are all now agree that one could do whatever they want with applying a technique they lifted, or thought they were lifting, from Kukki taekwondo poomsae. That application, adoption and interpretation/misinterpretation could be made by anybody, even those that have never studied Kukki taekwondo poomsae or any martial art for that matter. I occasionally sneak on my seven-and-half year old son doing a corrupted version of the ITF form Chon-ji with fake knifes, in a mortal battle with pirates. It actually looks good.
My question is specific to the learning and performing of poomsae to the standard created by the creators and teachers at the Kukkiwon and as an extension to serious practitioners of Kukki taekwondo.
If you were to apply "any tactically sound" interpretation to poomsae you will learn, perform and teach corrupted Kukki taekwondo poomsae or something resembling the same. That's the reason you see some folks doing all kinds of strange things in what they think is proper poomsae including standing on tip-toes, heaving, huffing and pufffng at the beginning of Koryo; sharp turning of the head left before they begin taeguks Il Jang to Chil Jang; throwing hands at the ceiling -- in opposite direction -- before performing any double knife hand block; throwing elbows in when performing outside-inside middle blocks; jumping both feet in the air to finish taeguk Oh Jang, etc. That philosophy of misinterpretation has often led even many of us practicing Kukki taekwondo to insult each other over imaginary "old" and "new" ways of doing poomsae created a mere 40 years ago.
Last edited:
There are people on this forum who know Kukkiwon poomsae practice, history or theory extremely well. I'm not one of them, and are in fact their distant junior, who learns a great deal from them on MT. You might want to PM them, because I get the feeling they don't want to be muddied up in this pig fight. Puunui and Mastercole, are already out, so try to get in touch with MSUTKD or Miles. There are others, who I can't think of right off the of me head. A History of Modern Taekwondo ( http://tkd.stanford.edu/documents/tkd_history.pdf) authored by , KANG, Won Sik, and LEE Kyong Myong, has excellent info.
LEE Kyong Myong
That's correct
SahBumNimRush
Master of Arts
I was using a royal "we" as I assumed atleast some of our KKW Taekwondoin know who created their form sets, whereas the forms I practice are a bit more murky in history (with the exception of the Pyung Ahns). I believe Hae Man Park (CDK) was one of the creators of the Taegeuk forms. I would be interested to see if any of our KKW buffs on here could shed some light on the subject as well!
Beyond that there was a pumse committee, I don't know. I suspect that what you describe is correct, but that it wasn't the same person or group of people on all eight pumse.
I do know that the unification process was completed after the creation of the Palgwe pumse, so the Taegeuk pumse were created to be representative of the input of all nine kwans.
