Extreme martial arts: Your thoughts?

[Andrew Green]

lol - When did I describe those as theatrical fighting?

But there is nothig "military" about them

If we wanted to study "Martial" arts we'd be training with rifles, gernades, mortars, Anti-tank weapons, claymores, etc. And that is just Individual type stuff, for black belt exam we'd have to test on Artillery and drive a tank course, 2nd dan involves a air raid...

 

[Josh Oakley]

It's not about effectiveness, it's about show. No hidden meanings, no public face / private face. It's just the show.

so... you've trained with them then?

 

[Josh Oakley]

lol - When did I describe those as theatrical fighting?

But there is nothig "military" about them

If we wanted to study "Martial" arts we'd be training with rifles, gernades, mortars, Anti-tank weapons, claymores, etc. And that is just Individual type stuff, for black belt exam we'd have to test on Artillery and drive a tank course, 2nd dan involves a air raid...

Are you going for hyperbole? considering the wide range of skills that would require,few if any people in the military would pass 1 Dan.

However, my personal (by personal, I mean "for me")martial arts does in fact include training to mastery on pistols and rifles. Those who know that mastery of a rifle is a truly Zen experience.

 

[Andrew Green]

Yes, I was being silly

 

[crushing]

lol - When did I describe those as theatrical fighting?

But there is nothig "military" about them

If we wanted to study "Martial" arts we'd be training with rifles, gernades, mortars, Anti-tank weapons, claymores, etc. And that is just Individual type stuff, for black belt exam we'd have to test on Artillery and drive a tank course, 2nd dan involves a air raid...

Speaking of claymores. . . I see the light, I see the light.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

So Muay Thai, Sambo, Boxing Etc...as you describe in term of Martial Arts are theatrical fighting, bro you just don't get it.

No, you're the one missing a very valid point. Muay Thai, Sambo and Boxing are fighting sports which also share the label of martial arts. There is no military in them except Sambo. And even in Sambo the military Sambo is DRASTICALLY different from the sport Sambo. The Russian Sambo encyclopedia outlines 3 forms of Sambo and they are all drastically different and only one is considered Military. The problem is that your "personal definition" of what Martial Arts is is not the only accepted definition among the martial arts community. You simply choose to discount anyone else's definition of martial arts which is your choice as it's your personal martial arts journey. I take it that Wushu is not a martial art then (given your point of impracticallity and flipping weapons) as it shares A LOT in common with what the XMA'ers do. But it is still commonly considered a martial art. Jet Li is a Wushu Expert yet he's considered a martial artist by the martial arts community. Also I guess Capoeria isn't a martial art either (again given the point about impracticality) as they dance around and do impractical cartwheels, handstands, backflips and somersaults.

Food for thought.

 

[Jimi]

Krabi Krabong is a military art, ancient as it is, still a martial art, and to this day they train to perserve that arts techniques and history, because it does not follow what a military today does not mean just anyone can swing a Dha/Darb without understanding application and call it Martial,then excuse their lack of knowledge and understanding by saying it's performance. I agree with you that I am standing on my definition of Martial Art, but that's my perogative on such a forum, to stand my ground on my beliefs. I'm not trying to convert Andrew, he seems not willing to understand my point while asserting his. This forum is for debate, and that's what I am doing. If he had a more valid point in my eyes, I'd probably see it different. I do however see your point much more clearly than Andrews expression. Again, to each his/her own. PEACE

 

[DeLamar.J]

I came across yet another XMA video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0bgQaTOfyc

I have to admire these students' athletic and gymnastic ability; no way I can do any of those tricks. But the operative word here is "tricks". XMA can be fun to watch, but I think that too many people - especially the younger crowd - mistake XMA as "the real deal". And being the "snobby" traditionalist I am (haha), a part of me thinks that this kind of stuff needs to be marketed strictly as *entertainment*.

What do the rest of you think?

This is why fighting should be a part of their martial arts training, this way useless techniques are seen for what they are, useless. You will not see these people fighting like this, unless it is staged.
It will never be marketed as entertainment because this type of place needs to be seen as real fighters, and as soon as you reveal to the general public that it is all really show, then it looses its luster. They must keep the respect that a fighter holds, and by not fighting, they never loose, and are never exposed. Witness the dark side of martial arts.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

This is why fighting should be a part of their martial arts training, this way useless techniques are seen for what they are, useless. You will not see these people fighting like this, unless it is staged.
It will never be marketed as entertainment because this type of place needs to be seen as real fighters, and as soon as you reveal to the general public that it is all really show, then it looses its luster. They must keep the respect that a fighter holds, and by not fighting, they never loose, and are never exposed. Witness the dark side of martial arts.

I may be making an assumption here, but I was under the impression that the general public is wuite educated on real fighting these days. At least in my part of the planet almost everyone I run into knows the difference and has seen at least on or two UFC's to have a more grounded view (even though the UFC still isn't fighting to me, but othes have another viewpoint as well) .... I think the days of "the public" not knowing any better are long gone. I also think that people may need to analyze exactly how much of their "martial art" isn't about fighting anymore. When was the last news report you heard of two guy duking it out with swords, nunchaku's and kamas. Heck when was the last time your heard a news report of ONE guy using these ancient farm tools turned weapons. Probably not recently if at all, so what are those weapons forms really for if the weapons aren't used anymore? Anybody (besides me) walk down the street with a set nunchaku's in a quick draw sheath everyday? Anybody with a Kama in their brief case? Any swords in the trunk just in case?

"The forms aren't showing the real use of the weapons". -- signed many posters

Kama's and Nunchaku's REAL uses are farm tools remember? Bo staffs were various handles for tools remember?

I've never seen the XMA stuff marketed as anything other than entertainment, please clue me in as to where it's marketed that it's fighting...I really need to see this so I can lose some more faith in general martial arts practice turned business venture...

 

[Brother John]

I came across yet another XMA video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0bgQaTOfyc

I have to admire these students' athletic and gymnastic ability; no way I can do any of those tricks. But the operative word here is "tricks". XMA can be fun to watch, but I think that too many people - especially the younger crowd - mistake XMA as "the real deal". And being the "snobby" traditionalist I am (haha), a part of me thinks that this kind of stuff needs to be marketed strictly as *entertainment*.

What do the rest of you think?

I say "BRAVO" to these guys (and ladies) abilities...but I agree, it's NOT "Martial"

It's Heavy Metal Wu Shu

Your Brother
John

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I say "BRAVO" to these guys (and ladies) abilities...but I agree, it's NOT "Martial"

It's Heavy Metal Wu Shu

Your Brother
John

Heavy Metal Wu Shu LOL!!!!!!!!!!

That's catchy, good one John!

 

[DeLamar.J]

I may be making an assumption here, but I was under the impression that the general public is wuite educated on real fighting these days. At least in my part of the planet almost everyone I run into knows the difference and has seen at least on or two UFC's to have a more grounded view (even though the UFC still isn't fighting to me, but othes have another viewpoint as well) .... I think the days of "the public" not knowing any better are long gone. I also think that people may need to analyze exactly how much of their "martial art" isn't about fighting anymore. When was the last news report you heard of two guy duking it out with swords, nunchaku's and kamas. Heck when was the last time your heard a news report of ONE guy using these ancient farm tools turned weapons. Probably not recently if at all, so what are those weapons forms really for if the weapons aren't used anymore? Anybody (besides me) walk down the street with a set nunchaku's in a quick draw sheath everyday? Anybody with a Kama in their brief case? Any swords in the trunk just in case?

"The forms aren't showing the real use of the weapons". -- signed many posters

Kama's and Nunchaku's REAL uses are farm tools remember? Bo staffs were various handles for tools remember?

I've never seen the XMA stuff marketed as anything other than entertainment, please clue me in as to where it's marketed that it's fighting...I really need to see this so I can lose some more faith in general martial arts practice turned business venture...

They allow people to assume. Then they can defend thier position when confronted. Hey, we never said that.

 

[Jimi]

XMA practioners are great athletes and performers, I have stated this before along with my own criticisms. If by definition my arts are not Martial because they are not what the modern Military does, and neither is XMA, why use the term Extreme Martial Arts? I can't believe that Mike chose the name Extreme MARTIAL Arts with the intention of informing people that what they do is absent fighting skill & knowledge and any BB rank in XMA is not an instructor of traditional combat tested skills. It confusses people trying to define weapons training either for the understanding of how those weapons were used for real in the past & the performance of athleticism/dexterity today.I would like to see a seperate division for XMA, and those like myself who want to see the traditional stuff can have the traditional weapons division. Those supporting XMA can have the Title Extreme Performance Grandchampionship (& the next SHARK BOY!) and those who want to see just performance for entertainment sake are satisfied, winner gets MOVIE CONTRACT. I see Andrews point now, "If you are not an athlete, be an athletic supporter." LOL.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

.......I can't believe that Mike chose the name Extreme MARTIAL Arts with the intention of informing people that what they do is absent fighting skill & knowledge and any BB rank in XMA is not an instructor of traditional combat tested skills.

How do you know this? I for one practice cartwheels, handstands, 540 degree kicks and somersaults in my attempt to stay young, supple and agile (It's a holdover from my gymnastics, TKD and Kung Fu days). How can you be so certain that what these guys do for demos and competition is all they do?

Also someone mentioned that they allow people to assume so they can say that they never said htis and that. When people assume they have to take PERSONAL responsibility for the assumption. If I say to someone "the water is not dangerous" they may assume I mean that it's safe and jump in. I however may mean "it's not dangerous, it's beyond that it's deadly". So who's fault was it? mine or the person who assumed without further information?

I'm all for opinions but like a parachute a mind works best when it's open.

Get as many facts as possible. Alot of this discussion seems to be centered heavily on personal opinon at the expense of any one else's opinon and assumptions of what the XMA'ers really do behind closed doors.

 

[Jimi]

So by the fact that I myself have not walked into their training area behind closed doors to see what they train to do, I can have no opinion of what I see them demo at touraments and video instruction media? WHA? You realy think behind closed doors XMA BBs hold the tradtions of Shorei Ryu Karate etc..and the weapons trained their in are being trained for the Honor of the Battle tested Katana, Kama, Bo etc...? And to show their respect for such weapons and knowledge , a young XMA'r will dress in a Hakama and flip a Katana or spin Kama in a way not relative to its history? How do I know they don't train weapons etc... to traditional standards behind closed doors? I don't know for sure, but I know that someone who has trained how such weapons were used does not flip the weapon or drop into the splits to show his/her knowledge of its historical combat application. Of course people are expressing from personal opinion, the question was XMA thoughts, and all of us are free to do that. Get more informaton? what I have seen to define what XMA is, is presented by XMArs themselves. XMA on discovery ch describes Mike and Matt as fighting their way through a tournament, east meets west, and from that we are supposed to believe what they do is all performance and for show and they are not claiming to be demoing Karate & Weapons mastery? My opinion stands just as yours will as well I trust

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I personally think its impressive to watch but its not martial arts and there is no practical purpose. Its sad that it is getting to the point where many open tournaments this is all you see. Traditionalists get beat because no one understands what the traditionalists are showing.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I may be making an assumption here, but I was under the impression that the general public is wuite educated on real fighting these days. At least in my part of the planet almost everyone I run into knows the difference and has seen at least on or two UFC's to have a more grounded view (even though the UFC still isn't fighting to me, but othes have another viewpoint as well) .... I think the days of "the public" not knowing any better are long gone. I also think that people may need to analyze exactly how much of their "martial art" isn't about fighting anymore. When was the last news report you heard of two guy duking it out with swords, nunchaku's and kamas. Heck when was the last time your heard a news report of ONE guy using these ancient farm tools turned weapons. Probably not recently if at all, so what are those weapons forms really for if the weapons aren't used anymore? Anybody (besides me) walk down the street with a set nunchaku's in a quick draw sheath everyday? Anybody with a Kama in their brief case? Any swords in the trunk just in case?

"The forms aren't showing the real use of the weapons". -- signed many posters

Kama's and Nunchaku's REAL uses are farm tools remember? Bo staffs were various handles for tools remember?

I've never seen the XMA stuff marketed as anything other than entertainment, please clue me in as to where it's marketed that it's fighting...I really need to see this so I can lose some more faith in general martial arts practice turned business venture...

Great post!

That's my take on it as well. Also, the local school I mentioned upthread DOESN'T market their XMA program as "Self-Defence". The stuff taught for Women's Self-Defence by this instructor includes palm-heel strikes, low sidekicks, elbow strikes etc. No jumping and spinning and twirling plastic nunchakus - that's for the kids on the "DEMO" team (marketed and explained to parents as a performance).

 

[Jimi]

Would anyone agree that different divisions like the musical forms division would help others see the difference between show & traditional skills? The XMAr can do all the emptyhand & weapons performances without regard for application and demo great athletic gymnastic skills, and the traditional weapons practioners can demo the historical weapons skills forms. I think everybody can win that way, more divisions mean more possible competitors, more money rasied for the tourney, and a clear divide between those who are a showman & those who are a swordsman (or swordswoman-respects Swordlady) I believe XMA are free to demo anything in that context, but It seems many to not agree that others spectating may not know the difference between show & go so to speak, and titles such as weapons champion have them believe what has be performed is how traditional weapons were used. I have seen that some tourneys even divide up, traditional korean emptyhand, tradition Okinawan emptyhand, traditional Japanese etc... and similar divisions for weapons of different traditions, musical forms, selfdefense demos, etc...I think that is a great idea, do more recent tourneys do this, or am I confussing open tourneys to be 1 open division per weapons,emptyhand,musical and traditionalists and performance artists must compete against one another?
Maybe you all can help me to better understand the competition issue, as I feel performance forms like XMA and traditionalists should not be competing for the same title. I hope someone understands my opinion. PEACE

 

[MJS]

As far as weapons and safety go, is this really that much more dangerous then any other weapons art? Much of the complaints seem to be about kids picking up a cheap one and trying this stuff. Why is that a bigger threat then same kids watching a Samurai movie, with very realistic sword work, picking up same sword and "Dueling" or dressing up in Lord of the Rings costumes and "Dueling"? Or even watching some documentary on Koryo arts and trying that stuff? Maybe making a few test cuts with a cheap blade and a friend holding the target?

XMA, like every other weapon art, when done properly under good instruction is not any more dangerous then any other weapons art IMO.

But it definately seems to be only Asian weapons that get it. I've yet to see a bunch of fencers get in a huff about folks running around playing with cheap swords and other Western weapons when they don't have any formal training with them at a renaissance fair for example?

I think it would be interesting to know exactly how much time goes into teaching the students the proper use of the weapon. I kind of compare it to the cardio kickboxing we see. Anyone can go up to a bag and start swinging and kicking away, but is their technique any good?

Mike

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Jimi,
I agree separate divisions should be required but they are not always. Plus then you end up getting black belts that only know the XMA stuff judging traditional at least around here. Its crazy!!