Extreme martial arts: Your thoughts?

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Not one of the more impressive demos out there, but there where some good guys in there.

I've know a few folks that where into this, they never once claimed it had anything to do with fighting. On the other hand I have seen a lot of stuff that was just as unrealistic passed off as "good, traditional martial arts / self-defence"

Never understood why so many people take such offence to this type of training, it's fun, requires a lot of athleticism and flexibility, what is wrong? Or is it that they use the sacred term "Martial Arts"?

One more thing: Why is this not ok, but when Jet Li makes a movie it can be called a "Martial Arts Movie"?

My thoughts exactly, especially the underlined bit.

 

[MJS]

I came across yet another XMA video on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0bgQaTOfyc

I have to admire these students' athletic and gymnastic ability; no way I can do any of those tricks. But the operative word here is "tricks". XMA can be fun to watch, but I think that too many people - especially the younger crowd - mistake XMA as "the real deal". And being the "snobby" traditionalist I am (haha), a part of me thinks that this kind of stuff needs to be marketed strictly as *entertainment*.

What do the rest of you think?

As I've said in the past, we all train for various reasons. My personal goals are different from what we're seeing in these clips, but if this is something that catches someones attention, gets them involved in something that they enjoy, etc., then thats fine. I'm certainly no gymnast, so this would be something that I'd probably avoid. I do feel though, that there should be a seperation. We see similar things with kata in many open tournaments. We'll see people doing flips, cartwheels, fancy, flashy moves, etc., but again, there should be a distinction between fantasy and reality.

Mike

 

[ajs1976]

I have watched some XMA clips. It is not something I am really interested in.

The thing that concerns me the most about it are the weapons forms. I just think of some kid that see it and convinces his parents to get him one of those $49.99 katanas. Then he tries some of those throws and twirls and ends up hurting himself. Then MAs in general take the blame.

 

[w.kaer]

I have watched some XMA clips. It is not something I am really interested in.

The thing that concerns me the most about it are the weapons forms. I just think of some kid that see it and convinces his parents to get him one of those $49.99 katanas. Then he tries some of those throws and twirls and ends up hurting himself. Then MAs in general take the blame.

I ask this with all due respect. How does the MA's take the blame if something like that happens? What about parental responsibility to ask what their kid needs with a katana? Besides, EVERYONE knows you could put your eye out with one of those things. :asian:

-Walt

 

[Kacey]

I ask this with all due respect. How does the MA's take the blame if something like that happens? What about parental responsibility to ask what their kid needs with a katana? Besides, EVERYONE knows you could put your eye out with one of those things. :asian:

-Walt

MAs take the blame because people who are not in them tend not to make the same distinctions as those who are - they lump all MAs together, and take what they see on TV as representative of what MAs really are.

And since when has what "everyone knows" ever stopped a smartass kid from trying something? :idunno: It certainly didn't stop me when I was a smartass kid who thought I was bulletproof - luckily, I survived that stage! :ultracool

 

[ajs1976]

Remember backyard wrestling from a couple of years ago? It was never the parents fault for not knowing what their kids were doing, it was wrestlings fault for giving the kids the ideas.

 

[Grenadier]

It's still martial arts, even though I don't like it. It does, however, come closer to sports entertainment, than traditional sporting. I see it more as comparing / contrasting two Sega Genesis console games based on the same engine:

NHL Hockey 95

and

Mutant League Hockey


As a grumpy, deeply-rooted traditionalist, while I may respect their athletic and gymnastic abilities, I see their workings as mere entertainment. While it's certainly entertaining to see someone jumping, spinning 360 (or 540) degrees, and lashing out an arcing kick at a head high level, the grump in me shakes its head, and scoffs, knowing that a simple side kick could have accomplished the same purpose.

Since I also study some kobudo, and have accumulated a nice collection of premium weapons, I get a bit miffed when I see these guys twirling around bo that are made of insubstantial graphite, or hollow bamboo.

I already know what a good, solidly constructed bo made from dense purpleheart, jatoba, or ipe wood can do, and what a flimsy balsawood bo can (or more precisely, cannot) do, so I am not impressed by their showings.

Worse yet, is when I see someone trying to perform Escrima / Kali / Arnis using acrylic sticks with built in LED's. I would think that using weapons that are exceptionally highlighted might make it easier for your opponent to see, and defend against, when put to use. My guess may be wrong, and if one of the Escrima / Kali / Arnis practitioners can confirm / deny my theory, then I'd certainly be appreciative!

 

[Andrew Green]

As far as weapons and safety go, is this really that much more dangerous then any other weapons art? Much of the complaints seem to be about kids picking up a cheap one and trying this stuff. Why is that a bigger threat then same kids watching a Samurai movie, with very realistic sword work, picking up same sword and "Dueling" or dressing up in Lord of the Rings costumes and "Dueling"? Or even watching some documentary on Koryo arts and trying that stuff? Maybe making a few test cuts with a cheap blade and a friend holding the target?

XMA, like every other weapon art, when done properly under good instruction is not any more dangerous then any other weapons art IMO.

But it definately seems to be only Asian weapons that get it. I've yet to see a bunch of fencers get in a huff about folks running around playing with cheap swords and other Western weapons when they don't have any formal training with them at a renaissance fair for example?

 

[mrhnau]

Worse yet, is when I see someone trying to perform Escrima / Kali / Arnis using acrylic sticks with built in LED's. I would think that using weapons that are exceptionally highlighted might make it easier for your opponent to see, and defend against, when put to use. My guess may be wrong, and if one of the Escrima / Kali / Arnis practitioners can confirm / deny my theory, then I'd certainly be appreciative!

This one I can actually think up a legitimate reason for. Stick an LED at the end of your stick. Perform your technique. Video-tape it. Get someone to perform it correctly and tape it. Compare the two LED's (in slow-mo if needed). You might see more clearly where the trajectories are different. Just a thought though. I imagine a good instructor should pick it up on his own, but it might be a good way to show the student an error.

I highly doubt FMAers stick little lights on their sticks and go looking for fights

 

[ajs1976]

As far as weapons and safety go, is this really that much more dangerous then any other weapons art? Much of the complaints seem to be about kids picking up a cheap one and trying this stuff. Why is that a bigger threat then same kids watching a Samurai movie, with very realistic sword work, picking up same sword and "Dueling" or dressing up in Lord of the Rings costumes and "Dueling"? Or even watching some documentary on Koryo arts and trying that stuff? Maybe making a few test cuts with a cheap blade and a friend holding the target?

I think it is different. My concern is specifically referring to some of the throws I have seen with a sword. Person throws it up in the air, lets it spin a couple of times and then catches it. I don't think that techinique would be a part of the more traditional arts.

I don't know that it is a bigger threat then movies and cartoons.

 

[Andrew Green]

I would imagine that a sharp sword is not a commonly used thing. All of the bladed "Xtreme" weapons I've seen where very dull and couldn't cuy ice cream in August. They are stage props, and treated as such.

 

[w.kaer]

MAs take the blame because people who are not in them tend not to make the same distinctions as those who are - they lump all MAs together, and take what they see on TV as representative of what MAs really are.

And since when has what "everyone knows" ever stopped a smartass kid from trying something? :idunno: It certainly didn't stop me when I was a smartass kid who thought I was bulletproof - luckily, I survived that stage! :ultracool

Kacey-
I will agree that those who are not in the MA's will lump them together out of their lack of knowledge on the subject, but again how is THEIR lack of knowledge the FAULT of MA as a whole? That sounds like personal responsibility. I don't understand quantum physics, and I will tend to lump all sub-atomic particles as the same. Can I then blame quantum physics if I go attempt to build a particle accelerator and put MY eye out?

As to your second point on smartass kids, good point. But the parents shouldn't buy thier kids katanas. Their parents should know their kids are not bulletproof, even if their smartass kid doesn't. :asian:

Respectfully,
Walt

 

[Jimi]

I've seen plenty of people being critical at a renn fest, I've heard, "I'm trained in stage combat and those guys should not be playing with those weapons like that" After Braveheart hit the theaters, anyone who could afford a claymore was running around yelling FREEEEDOOOOM! at a couple of fairs. XMA as a performance art is ok, I agree that the activity can give a younger generation focus and a safe place to stay out of trouble. When these XMA win a competition then call themselves WORLD KARATE WEAPONS GRANDCHAMPION is when the illusion is cast that what they do is serious MA and they know combat. I choke on that. PEACE

 

[Andrew Green]

What they do IS serious. Think about how many hours those "performers" put into there art, I'd guess that on average those being critized put in more hours then those critizing.

 

[Kacey]

Kacey-
I will agree that those who are not in the MA's will lump them together out of their lack of knowledge on the subject, but again how is THEIR lack of knowledge the FAULT of MA as a whole? That sounds like personal responsibility. I don't understand quantum physics, and I will tend to lump all sub-atomic particles as the same. Can I then blame quantum physics if I go attempt to build a particle accelerator and put MY eye out?

As to your second point on smartass kids, good point. But the parents shouldn't buy thier kids katanas. Their parents should know their kids are not bulletproof, even if their smartass kid doesn't. :asian:

Respectfully,
Walt

I'm not disagreeing with you - however, many people (as witness the wrestling craze referred to in another post) will blame anything rather than accept blame themselves (especially when they should accept the blame), which is what I was trying to say, and was too sleepy to state clearly. Sorry about that. Too many people (adults on behalf of themselves and parents on behalf of their children) will blame outside sources of influence (things seen on TV being a prime example) rather than accept responsibility for their own choices.

 

[w.kaer]

Remember backyard wrestling from a couple of years ago? It was never the parents fault for not knowing what their kids were doing, it was wrestlings fault for giving the kids the ideas.

Well pro rasslin' took the blame in the media, but was it really the fault of the WWE et.al.? No of course not. WWE did not tell kids to go do this. They do not deserve the blame solely on the fact that kids emulate what they saw on TV. NASCAR doesn't get blamed for young drivers getting in car accidents while trying to go 3 wide on the interstate. How does the institution take blame?

In the same way I won't blame WWE, I will not blame the MA's even more. Institutions, in and of themselves, are inanimate. They are abstracts. "Martial Arts" as an institution cannot do anything. "Martial Artists" can do things and be responsible for things. One bad apple may spoil the whole contents of the case, but the case itself isn't bad.

Respectfully,
Walt:asian:

 

[w.kaer]

I'm not disagreeing with you - however, many people (as witness the wrestling craze referred to in another post) will blame anything rather than accept blame themselves (especially when they should accept the blame), which is what I was trying to say, and was too sleepy to state clearly. Sorry about that. Too many people (adults on behalf of themselves and parents on behalf of their children) will blame outside sources of influence (things seen on TV being a prime example) rather than accept responsibility for their own choices.

Agreed.

 

[Jimi]

XMA is serious, as a performance art, and I am not taking away from their performance skill by my statement, But XMA is not a serious combat art. I see no combat in XMA, I see very talented athletes who perform for show, but I see no true weapons application in what they do. I put in my own hours to understand and train Okinawan ,Filipino and Burmese weapons to honor the art as it was taught to me. If I performed a weapons sequence incorrectly, did not cover my targets etc... my instructor was yelling you are dead, you're killing my art! I can imagine an XMA instructor saying spin it faster than the other guy, do a bigger flip with it, tape flashy foil to your weapon to show the audience your skill. XMA has it's place no doubt, I just don't like seeing weapons forms without the true combat application and then it being called WORLD KARATE GRANDCHAMPION PERFORMANCE. Not that these guys don't have talent, they are absent the weapons intent from that weapons art. I hope you see, I am only taking issue with the fact that such a championship title fools people into believing that is what a weapons art is about, the flips, jump spin kick drop into the splits. Do you understand my point or do you think I am just bashing XMA out of jealousy. LOL PEACE

 

[w.kaer]

...I am only taking issue with the fact that such a championship title fools people into believing that is what a weapons art is about, the flips, jump spin kick drop into the splits...

Karate-do versus Karate-show:asian:

 

[Andrew Green]

But XMA is not a serious combat art. I see no combat in XMA,

I understand the point, but I don't se the reason for it.

They never claim anything else. It seems like critizing a donut because it isn't a very good steak...