External vs internal martial arts

[Tez3]

Oh yes, definitely it is an artistic endeavour. It is similar to, say english, which is also an art. Of course you have spelling, grammatical rules and so on, but good writers can produce bestsellers while bad writers can't. Also new words are added to the language every now and then.

If martial training is not an art to you, what is it?

Your story doesn't make a lot of sense actually.

An internal art is different. Let's take for example this time the chinese sword. An internalist would not be practising the sword by repetitively doing any specific thrusting or slicing movement to gain muscle memory. Instead, when the internalist moves the sword around, he pays full attention, not to any specific technique, but rather his body external and internal balance, breathing, his mental focus on the sword etc. if he extends the sword to the right, he must make sure to adjust his balance externally (by extending his other arm and adjusting his stance) and internally (imagine balancing yourself on one foot, feels like that).

I can tell you quite emphatically that many if not most karateka move exactly as you describe yet you describe it are 'external'. I'm not sure you understand what karate for example actually is.

Oh yes, definitely it is an artistic endeavour. It is similar to, say english, which is also an art. Of course you have spelling, grammatical rules and so on, but good writers can produce bestsellers while bad writers can't. Also new words are added to the language every now and then..

Absolutely not, English isn't an art it's a language. Good writers are that because of imagination, practice, talent and a few others things. Writing is the art not the language. Being fluent in a language doesn't make you a good writer. I think this is why you are confused about other martial arts

 

[Zeny]

Your story doesn't make a lot of sense actually.





I can tell you quite emphatically that many if not most karateka move exactly as you describe yet you describe it are 'external'. I'm not sure you understand what karate for example actually is.







Absolutely not, English isn't an art it's a language. Good writers are that because of imagination, practice, talent and a few others things. Writing is the art not the language. Being fluent in a language doesn't make you a good writer. I think this is why you are confused about other martial arts

Karate is descended from white crane, which is a hybrid art, is it no? I'm not a karateka so how would i know what karate is? It has so many 'ryu's which i can't even spell properly. Have i made any comment on karate as if i know the art intimately? Again your remark is just unfair.

On the english point, if you want to draw fine lines like that, then a martial art is not an art, fighting is. Then we will be talking about martial science, and the art of fighting. I don't see the utility in such fine lines or play of words, but that's just me.

Quite obviously both of us talk on very different wave lengths, but you sure love my thread, don't you. Last i roughly counted, you posted 11 times. Please don't go and double check whether i counted correctly or not as if i'm wrong it would be rather embarrassing. Are you like trying to win some 'top poster' award?

 

[Flying Crane]

i once read a story that in ancient times there was this not so bright student of the martial arts. His classmates constantly belittled him as he was very slow at learning the art. So one day his teacher gave him a pole and asked him to go into the jungle and just thrust at branches whole day. Several years passed, and one day someone came and challenged the school. None of the senior students could defeat the challenger. This student was watching and he thought that the challenger did not seem to be very good, so he said let him try. As the story goes, the student easily defeated the challenger using his simple branch thrusting skills. Basically he had gotten so good at it from all those years of diligent and repetitive practice. I believe this is a good example of what constitutes an external art.

An internal art is different. Let's take for example this time the chinese sword. An internalist would not be practising the sword by repetitively doing any specific thrusting or slicing movement to gain muscle memory. Instead, when the internalist moves the sword around, he pays full attention, not to any specific technique, but rather his body external and internal balance, breathing, his mental focus on the sword etc. if he extends the sword to the right, he must make sure to adjust his balance externally (by extending his other arm and adjusting his stance) and internally (imagine balancing yourself on one foot, feels like that). The sword to the right could be at any number of positions, so each adjustment is unique, and this also varies between persons as they have different builds etc. An adjustment on a day when you are tired is also different than when you are fresh and alert.

I would not personally classify weight training as either external or internal. I would simply call it... weight training.

Your example of the sword is only possible after extensive physical training to understand the techniques and methodology of the weapon, and build that physical skill and familiarity. Only then can one rise to a higher awareness with it.

To think that one can simply pick up a sword, without prior experience, and be at that higher level is utterly unrealistic.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh yes, definitely it is an artistic endeavour. It is similar to, say english, which is also an art. Of course you have spelling, grammatical rules and so on, but good writers can produce bestsellers while bad writers can't. Also new words are added to the language every now and then.

If martial training is not an art to you, what is it? Martial science? What is the defining factor between art and science?

The term "art" in martial arts does not refer to artistic expression. It refers to a methodology and sophistication and yes, creativity too in the context of building useful and effective skills. There is a nuance in the use of the word in the English language. But it is not art in the way a ballet or a painting is art.

 

[Zeny]

Your example of the sword is only possible after extensive physical training to understand the techniques and methodology of the weapon, and build that physical skill and familiarity. Only then can one rise to a higher awareness with it.

To think that one can simply pick up a sword, without prior experience, and be at that higher level is utterly unrealistic.

Thats accurate from an 'external' point of view, but not an 'internal' one. In my view, an internalist trains balance and awareness from the first moment he picks up the sword, and not any thrusting or slicing technique.

 

[Flying Crane]

Thats accurate from an 'external' point of you, but not an 'internal' one. In my view, an internalist trains balance and awareness from the first moment he picks up the sword, not any thrusting or slicing method.

Well, lucky for you this modern age we live in is very unlikely to require your use of the sword to defend the life of yourself or a loved one or your village. Otherwise you might have the misfortune of needing to test your theory, with life or death in the outcome. I put my money on the other guy, all other things being equal.

 

[Tez3]

Karate is descended from white crane, which is a hybrid art, is it no? I'm not a karateka so how would i know what karate is? It has so many 'ryu's which i can't even spell properly. Have i made any comment on karate as if i know the art intimately? Again your remark is just unfair.

On the english point, if you want to draw fine lines like that, then a martial art is not an art, fighting is. Then we will be talking about martial science, and the art of fighting. I don't see the utility in such fine lines or play of words, but that's just me.

Quite obviously both of us talk on very different wave lengths, but you sure love my thread, don't you. Last i roughly counted, you posted 11 times. Please don't go and double check whether i counted correctly or not as if i'm wrong it would be rather embarrassing. Are you like trying to win some 'top poster' award?

Sooo, you complain I don't post about the subject of your OP but when I do you think ridiculing karate is the way to go?

Why are you trying to make this a personal argument? You are yet again being rude, there's no pleasing you is there? We are damned if we do, damned if we don't. Perhaps you should ask yourself what your purpose is being here.

 

[Zeny]

Well, lucky for you this modern age we live in is very unlikely to require your use of the sword to defend the life of yourself or a loved one or your village. Otherwise you might have the misfortune of needing to test your theory, with life or death in the outcome. I put my money on the other guy, all other things being equal.

I guess we will never find out. To each his own, i suppose.

 

[EddieCyrax]

Thats accurate from an 'external' point of view, but not an 'internal' one. In my view, an internalist trains balance and awareness from the first moment he picks up the sword, and not any thrusting or slicing technique.

This can be said about any technique or human motor skill. From walking, biking, punching, kicking, bo staff, sword, chewing gum, etc...

Balance is a function of stance and structure. This is in all martial arts.

Generally the first thing taught to beginners is stance and breathing.....At least in every school I have ever walked into.

I would say respect and awareness are required to practice any weapon, be it gun, knife, staff, chucks, sword, etc......External or Internal..

 

[Zeny]

Sooo, you complain I don't post about the subject of your OP but when I do you think ridiculing karate is the way to go?

Why are you trying to make this a personal argument? You are yet again being rude, there's no pleasing you is there? We are damned if we do, damned if we don't. Perhaps you should ask yourself what your purpose is being here.

I told you we don't speak on the same wave length. When i said karate has many 'ryu's and i can't spell them it is a statement of fact, not ridicule, and yet you take it as a ridicule. See what i mean when i said we don't speak on the same wave length? You started this yourself as a personal argument. I'm not turning it into one.

 

[oftheherd1]

I dunno, but i feel this post wasn't especially pleasant, so i don't feel inclined to respond to him. Thus the subsequent google comment.

...

If that post offended you I am sorry. Could you tell me exactly what is was that offended you.

Some people find my OP acceptable (tez), some people enjoyed it (bill), some people understood it (dave), some people don't (oftheherd), and some people find it offensive (xue), and you happen to be in the latter category. I don't mind that because that's what happens in an internet forum, just don't be an *** about it or pretend you are speaking for everyone or people need protection from the lies of Zeny.

i'm sure many people on this forum are intelligent enough to decide for themselves what is real and what is delusion. If you don't like my post, do yourself a favour and avoid my threads.

Your are right that I didn't understand. That was why I asked the questions I did. If you are unable to explain it further, I will just let it go.

 

[Zeny]

This can be said about any technique or human motor skill. From walking, biking, punching, kicking, bo staff, sword, chewing gum, etc...

Balance is a function of stance and structure. This is in all martial arts.

Generally the first thing taught to beginners is stance and breathing.....At least in every school I have ever walked into.

I would say respect and awareness are required to practice any weapon, be it gun, knife, staff, chucks, sword, etc......External or Internal..

If you are standing upright and you say you are balanced, you are not wrong. But 'internal' balance goes way deeper than that.

 

[Zeny]

If that post offended you I am sorry. Could you tell me exactly what is was that offended you.



Your are right that I didn't understand. That was why I asked the questions I did. If you are unable to explain it further, I will just let it go.

No worries, just the manner you phrased your sentence, i suppose. Anyway ask ahead what you don't understand, and i will respond tomorrow as it is really late now (2:20 am) and i need to go to sleep.

 

[oaktree]

For me internal vs external well right now I am wondering if a southern Chinese girl is better or a northern Chinese girl is better both have their pros and cons
Defining internal is such a tricky thing, as someone who does external can also do the same thing, but I feel an external manifestation of the same technique would be shallow in comparison if we are comparing an internalist and externalist of different levels. Let's use judo as a reference point as it does have in lower levels definitely external as a lot of lesser experience throwers would use more mudcle in there technique as well as proper body leverage, as the judoka becomes more experience and older he becomes softer more internal his timing and off balancing becomes more precise and effortlessly and the principle concept of ju is used. The idea of internal arts, reverses that direction and say Taijiquan focuses on relaxing and sinking forces to shape the body, do they become more internal or does their internal mesh with their external making it hard to tell. The point is southern Chinese girls are smaller in height and have a better ability at cooking with a wok while northern girls tend to be quite funny at times. I hope that helps

 

[Xue Sheng]

For me internal vs external well right now I am wondering if a southern Chinese girl is better or a northern Chinese girl is better both have their pros and cons
Defining internal is such a tricky thing, as someone who does external can also do the same thing, but I feel an external manifestation of the same technique would be shallow in comparison if we are comparing an internalist and externalist of different levels. Let's use judo as a reference point as it does have in lower levels definitely external as a lot of lesser experience throwers would use more mudcle in there technique as well as proper body leverage, as the judoka becomes more experience and older he becomes softer more internal his timing and off balancing becomes more precise and effortlessly and the principle concept of ju is used. The idea of internal arts, reverses that direction and say Taijiquan focuses on relaxing and sinking forces to shape the body, do they become more internal or does their internal mesh with their external making it hard to tell. The point is southern Chinese girls are smaller in height and have a better ability at cooking with a wok while northern girls tend to be quite funny at times. I hope that helps

Kind of like comparing a young Olympic Judoka gold medalist to Kyuzo Mifune kind of thing.....or external goes to internal....

As for this bit

The point is southern Chinese girls are smaller in height and have a better ability at cooking with a wok while northern girls tend to be quite funny at times. I hope that helps

Not my experience

 

[EddieCyrax]

If you are standing upright and you say you are balanced, you are not wrong. But 'internal' balance goes way deeper than that.

Agreed.

My point, all martial art training should ends up in the same place over time. Thus I see no need to categorize styles in this manner.

Admittedly some people get stuck in what they like to do.....

Just a matter of how you get there and the area one wishes to focus on first.

 

[mograph]

Personally, I don't find much utility in making a distinction between "internal" and "external" martial arts.

1. There is little consensus in the martial definitions of the terms when referring to arts, and the definitions are constructs, no matter what some would like to believe.
   
2. In this context, I see no direct relationship from being "internal" or "external" to anything concrete, such as the body. All martial arts use muscle, bones, tendons and intentions (internal to the body), and perform observable actions (external to the body). Basically ... a martial art is internal or external to what?
   
3. Practitioners use the terms for their own ends to suit their own values: some internal stylists may look at external stylists as crude, simplistic or ignorant, while some external stylists may look at internal stylists as naive, ineffectual or deceptive. In other words, identifying with these constructs can lead to the reinforcement of our existing biases.
4. Just what we need: another way to separate us and create tribes. Minimal group paradigm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
5. Now ... can an art, style or technique be practiced in a manner that is more "internal" or "external?" I think so. I would define that distinction as being (respectively) less or more obvious to the eye. It would be a spectrum. An art could be practiced "internally" or "externally" at different times, to suit different training & learning purposes.
   
6. Defining an art as one or the other risks losing sight of the opposite within the art's methods. For example, if we categorize taijiquan as "internal," we may discount the value of an external (easily observable) methods that could benefit a taijiquan practitioner.
   
7. to that end (#5), maybe a more useful distinction would be "internal" or "external" methods, methods available to all martial arts. Also, as EddieCyrax wrote, these methods would be intertwined within an art.
   
8. So ... I don't think that it's useful to refer to a martial art as internal or external, but it may be useful to describe various martial arts training methods as internal or external, based on how easily observable they are. This would encourage practitioners to learn from each other and avoid the growing divisiveness which we see all around us.

 

[Dirty Dog]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
This thread is developing a fair bit of sniping, personal attacks, and general rudeness.
Please stop it, or the thread will be locked, and points will be issued.
This is not a schoolyard playground. Let's not act like school children.

 

[oaktree]

Kind of like comparing a young Olympic Judoka gold medalist to Kyuzo Mifune kind of thing.....or external goes to internal....

As for this bit



Not my experience

Yes the young judoka tend to muscle there way more I'm thinking guys doing squats for power on their legs and dead lifts while the older Japanese guy transition is smooth and refined like a new externalist would be Johnny walker black a bit harsh while a new internalist would be a 12 year single malt both similar in years yet the single malt is more refined on the palate. Now Johnny walker blue is a more refined scotch so it is in a way internal same as an externalist becomes internal, however a single malt scotch of say a 25 year would be also very refined. I guess northern Chinese girls are more single malt and southern Chinese girls are more blend and as of lately I am interested in blends especially when blends say I can have single malts at the same time

 

[mograph]

... like a new externalist would be Johnny walker black a bit harsh while a new internalist would be a 12 year single malt both similar in years yet the single malt is more refined on the palate. Now Johnny walker blue is a more refined scotch so it is in a way internal same as an externalist becomes internal, however a single malt scotch of say a 25 year would be also very refined.

I don't think the internet is the right place for this particular discussion -- it needs to be evaluated in depth, and in person.