External vs internal martial arts

[Danny T]

Serious question, why are you on this thread if you have nothing interesting to contribute?

Tez is here because she wants to be here. Same as you.

Punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock...etc cannot happen without the internal.

You have already stated your opinion that one needs not care about external or internal. Point taken. Now why are you on this thread again?

Zue is here because he wants to be here. Same as you.

Punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock...etc cannot happen without internal so...

 

[Xue Sheng]

You have already stated your opinion that one needs not care about external or internal. Point taken. Now why are you on this thread again?

Why are you afraid to answer my question?

You made a statement that we are all supposed to understand and you are basing that statement on a definition of internal that is specific to you and refusing to answer questions when asked, as to what you mean. I am here to see if we can figure out where your coming from, or if you actually know yourself where you are coming from.

 

[Tez3]

Why am I here?

Ok I'll play. I'm a martial artist, I enjoy what I do but I also enjoy learning about martial arts, all style including ones I could never do like capoeira and ones I'd love to do like Iaido. Martial arts do have a common basis, there are only so many ways one can move the limbs, only so many ways one can fight so most of us who have been doing martial arts for a long time can recognise what is going on in other styles even if we don't do them. I can see echoes of CMA in what I do in Wado Ryu, I want to know more, see more, I don't want ever to say, well I've seen it all and know it all because I don't believe anyone can know it all. So I read, watch, try out everything to see what I can learn, I have to tell you I have learned a lot from Xue Sheng on here over the years as well as from others. this place is a valuable resource for those that like to learn.

Soooo.... zeny,. why are you on here?

 

[Danny T]

And some of us have a sense of humor... often in a strange sense...but it is humor.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And some of us have a sense of humor... often in a strange sense...but it is humor.

Now your just trying to cause trouble

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A pure internal martial artist thinks very differently. Take for example myself. I do not learn any set moves. If you ask me what move i'm good at, i would not be able to answer.

There are problems by using this approach. For example, a "hip throw" will require to

- land your right foot in front of your opponent's right foot,
- land your left foot in front of your opponent's left foot,
- use your left arm to wrap on his right arm,
- use your right arm to "under hook", "over hook" his left shoulder. or "waist wrap" on his waist.
- ...

If any of your feet and hands are not at the right place and at the right time, your "hip throw" won't work. Of course you may say you don't need to train "hip throw". The concern is since the "hip throw" is the mother of all throws, you will miss a lot of the throwing skill training. Again, you may say that you don't need to train "throwing skill". If that's the case then how to counter throws will not be part of your training. Your training will become a pure "striking art". Is that what you want your training to be?

When engaging an opponent i am externally and internally balanced, and i look for defects in the opponent's body and movement which i then take advantage of.

When your opponent uses "arm drag" and tries to move behind of you, the best counter is to put your leading leg behind his leading leg to prevent him from getting behind you.

Without repeating your partner drill 10,000 times, do you think you can react correctly the 1st time that your opponent applies "arm drag" on you?

 

[Ironbear24]

It's like I'm hearing you. But I'm not hearing you. You hear me?

 

[Zeny]

Why are you afraid to answer my question?

You made a statement that we are all supposed to understand and you are basing that statement on a definition of internal that is specific to you and refusing to answer questions when asked, as to what you mean. I am here to see if we can figure out where your coming from, or if you actually know yourself where you are coming from.

I find that there is really no point for me personally to spend time typing answers to your questions. If you don't agree with or don't understand what i say or don't think i understand what i say, that's fine, please move on.

 

[Zeny]

Why am I here?

Ok I'll play. I'm a martial artist, I enjoy what I do but I also enjoy learning about martial arts, all style including ones I could never do like capoeira and ones I'd love to do like Iaido. Martial arts do have a common basis, there are only so many ways one can move the limbs, only so many ways one can fight so most of us who have been doing martial arts for a long time can recognise what is going on in other styles even if we don't do them. I can see echoes of CMA in what I do in Wado Ryu, I want to know more, see more, I don't want ever to say, well I've seen it all and know it all because I don't believe anyone can know it all. So I read, watch, try out everything to see what I can learn, I have to tell you I have learned a lot from Xue Sheng on here over the years as well as from others. this place is a valuable resource for those that like to learn.

Soooo.... zeny,. why are you on here?

No really, why are you on my thread about external vs internal when all you do is make offensive posts?

 

[Zeny]

It's like I'm hearing you. But I'm not hearing you. You hear me?

Can you be more specific? I don't really get you either.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I find that there is really no point for me personally to spend time typing answers to your questions. If you don't agree with or don't understand what i say or don't think i understand what i say, that's fine, please move on.

It was two simple questions

1) So are you saying you only find; punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock in external arts?

2) Are you also saying that practicing the 13 postures in Taijiquan is external as well?

and those questions are based on a post you made that needed clarification...don't understand all the fuss...

 

[mograph]

It's like I'm hearing you. But I'm not hearing you. You hear me?

Can you hear me now? (thump thump) Is this thing on?

 

[Buka]

I enjoyed your descriptions. I do not know very much about CMA. In my own style, Isshin Ryu, we study what you might call 'external', but I have to add that I am spending a lot of time recently trying to do what you describe when contemplating my own 'inner self' as I am applying techniques. This may not be an official or even a taught manner of practicing my particular art, but I am doing it on my own, because it seems right to do so. I suspect that I am far from the first person to do so.

When I take a stance, for example, I am now spending time thinking about the micro-positioning that makes it work or not work, more or less efficient for my body build, weight, and flexibility; in other words, to personalize it for me. I am also thinking about my inner conflicts and mindfulness or empty mindedness that affect my ability to perform the movement that is about to happen. It's an internal as well as external settling moment; a deliberate pause prior to exploding into the next technique. The pause of course, need not be of a significant slice of time, but a mere fraction of a moment.

We talk about dropping our breath, dropping our weight, but we seldom talk about dropping our concerns and mental state. Seems to me that we should, if we can. Even if we do it during training and not so much in an emergency situation, it helps to maximize our potential.

Funny thing is, it reminds me very much of the marksmanship training I received in the Marine Corps. We used an acronym called 'BRASS." Breathe, relax, aim, STOP, squeeze (the trigger). That 'stop' is very important. Maybe more important than anything else. That's the part where you empty yourself and then you become one with the rifle, the bullet, and the target. The finger on the trigger, and the subsequent movement of the bullet downrange, are inevitable consequences of an action that has already been completed in the mind. It will happen because it has happened.

Works for breaking bricks as well. I break them because I already did in my mind. The brick has no choice in the matter.

"The brick has no choice in the matter." That's gold right there.

 

[Zeny]

It was two simple questions

1) So are you saying you only find; punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock in external arts?

2) Are you also saying that practicing the 13 postures in Taijiquan is external as well?

and those questions are based on a post you made that needed clarification...don't understand all the fuss...

Two simple answers then:

1) No. Bill Mattocks did some empty mind thing for his karate. Does it mean his karate is an internal art? I don't know why you see things completely in black and white.

2) it depends on how you do it

Satisfied?

 

[Zeny]

There are problems by using this approach. For example, a "hip throw" will require to

- land your right foot in front of your opponent's right foot,
- land your left foot in front of your opponent's left foot,
- use your left arm to wrap on his right arm,
- use your right arm to "under hook", "over hook" his left shoulder. or "waist wrap" on his waist.
- ...

If any of your feet and hands are not at the right place and at the right time, your "hip throw" won't work. Of course you may say you don't need to train "hip throw". The concern is since the "hip throw" is the mother of all throws, you will miss a lot of the throwing skill training. Again, you may say that you don't need to train "throwing skill". If that's the case then how to counter throws will not be part of your training. Your training will become a pure "striking art". Is that what you want your training to be?


When your opponent uses "arm drag" and tries to move behind of you, the best counter is to put your leading leg behind his leading leg to prevent him from getting behind you.

Without repeating your partner drill 10,000 times, do you think you can react correctly the 1st time that your opponent applies "arm drag" on you?

In my limited experience, it depends on the level of the internal martial artist. If you have practised the move 10,000 times and can do it in your sleep, the internal martial artist ought to be of a similar or higher level before he could counter your move. When we discuss internal arts it is counterintuitive to say, if you do this, i do that, because that's not how it works.

 

[Buka]

To Zeny's OP - I've been doing external Martial Arts for a long time. Love it.
I've been doing an internal Martial Art for six weeks. (Tai-chi) Love it. Did it for six months or so back in 76, but the teacher moved away. Always knew I'd do it again.

Ain't the Arts grand? Oh, you betcha'.

 

[Danny T]

Ok on a serious note.
Internal vs External = Taoist vs Buddhist = from China vs from elsewhere.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the internal martial artist ought to be of a similar or higher level before he could counter your move.

Are you saying that "internal" guys don't train offensive skill but only train defensive skill?

 

[Zeny]

Are you saying that "internal" guys don't train offensive skill but only train defensive skill?

The internal martial artist trains the same skill (see my OP) that can be used in both offence and defence. In my experience, of course, i can't speak for all internalists.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The internal martial artist trains the same skill (see my OP) that can be used in both offence and defence. In my experience, of course, i can't speak for all internalists.

For those offense skills and defense skills, does "internal" martial artist "develop" it through "partner drills" the same way as the external martial artist does (such as to repeat a partner drill for 10,000 times)?