Why most Styles SUCK!

[Yari]

Originally posted by arnisador

Filipino systems tend to teach principles first, and so you can more easily judge the system--other systems have you eke out the principles through years of practice and so when you get them you really "get" them, because you sweated for it.

People "dis" arts much too easily nowadays. I do believe that some styles simply suck, but many are great for the right person and the right type of threat.

Nicely put!

/Yari

 

[asoka]

I totally agree with tonbo,about time someone feels same way I do.I had a post before about it and it started a war,i'm glad someone feels same about traditional arts.

It is very true that traditional arts are stuck in their old ways and need to move on.I agree 100% that what worked then won't work now.


Traditional arts need to develop.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by asoka


It is very true that traditional arts are stuck in their old ways and need to move on.I agree 100% that what worked then won't work now.


Traditional arts need to develop.

Can you elaborate on how they are stuck and how they need to move on/develop?

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



Can you elaborate on how they are stuck and how they need to move on/develop?

I want to hear that too.

I would also like to heard what is a modern art, that doesn't base itself on already done MA?

/Yari

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by sweeper

originaly all I meant to say was if for whatever reason you don't think you are going to use it, there isn't much point in training it...

I don't mean if you aren't good enough at it so you won't use it you should stop training in it, but there are some things people just won't use, doesn't matter why, but if it isn't going o be used than why train it?

why train it?

because human beings are not psychic and we never know what we're going to need, and that one move that you never thought you're going to use just may save your life. It did mine.

I never thought I'd use any of those false handshake techniques (when someone pretends to shake your hand and then tries to pull you into a punch or uses a handshake to otherwise control you). I always thought "who the heck is gonna grab a girl that way? someone might attack a guy like that, but that doesn't really fit..." I thought it was one of the strangest attacks on the planet. However, I'm damn glad I trained with that technique, because when my attacker grabbed me, it was a textbook false handshake grab, and I walked away because I knew what to do, and I knew what do do because I'd trained something I'd never thought I was going to use.

Techniques and weapons and stuff give you ideas, and the more ideas you have in a situation, the better off you are, because the most effective idea for your situation may just be the one you decided wasn't worth learning.

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



Can you elaborate on how they are stuck and how they need to move on/develop?

By my comment I meant,traditional arts that practice katas need to wake up and get rid of these forms,get down to what really works now instead of what worked back then.Punching and kicking in air does ****.The stances are also useless.In a real situation you won't have time to go into a stance and if you block or kick the way you do katas you'll lose.

You're as good as you've been taught and practice in class.Chances are in a real situation you'll react exactly how you've been trained and if you react the way most traditional arts teach,you're simply going to get your *** kicked.

That's why I don't do traditional arts any more,instead I do street defense which is taught in Pankration.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by asoka



By my comment I meant,traditional arts that practice katas need to wake up and get rid of these forms,get down to what really works now instead of what worked back then.Punching and kicking in air does ****.The stances are also useless.In a real situation you won't have time to go into a stance and if you block or kick the way you do katas you'll lose.

You're as good as you've been taught and practice in class.Chances are in a real situation you'll react exactly how you've been trained and if you react the way most traditional arts teach,you're simply going to get your *** kicked.

That's why I don't do traditional arts any more,instead I do street defense which is taught in Pankration.

We're having a discussion in another forum (I don't know how to link), about kata's. And as you already know. I don't agree.

I have friends that only have praticed point karate, which has nothing do to with selfdefense classes at all, just competition by point = semi contact, and he was attacked by 3 attackers. He ask what should he do? Just use his elbows? Which he did, and finished the 3 off in a second. The only thing this guy ever practiced was kata and point karate,and was one of norways best karate people.

But like I said in the other forum. I don't think that kata can stand for itself, but it works and is usefull.

/Yari

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by asoka



By my comment I meant,traditional arts that practice katas need to wake up and get rid of these forms,get down to what really works now instead of what worked back then.Punching and kicking in air does ****.The stances are also useless.In a real situation you won't have time to go into a stance and if you block or kick the way you do katas you'll lose.

So then by that reasoning shadow boxing is useless and from my understanding the stances used in forms are for exercise not for real combat.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by asoka

I totally agree with tonbo,about time someone feels same way I do.I had a post before about it and it started a war,i'm glad someone feels same about traditional arts.

It is very true that traditional arts are stuck in their old ways and need to move on.I agree 100% that what worked then won't work now.

Traditional arts need to develop.

I don't understand you. What is it that you're looking for?
Is it validation from traditional martial artists that YOUR style
is the only one that people should study?

Maybe it's that you want to start crap?

Why go to a site populated mostly by YOUR definition
of "traditional" martial artists and post here? I seriously doubt
you're looking for some kind of interesting conversation or
debate. If you wanna sell your pankration doo-doo, go to the
fargin UFC and kick some tail. That'd be more of a marketing
tool than coming on this board and trying to push your b.s.
to the members here. As soon as this thread is wasted away
into page 2, or 3 ... we have to hear your crap again. What's
the next thread's subject gonna be? "Pankration Is The Only
Style Worth Studying" ? I find you insulting, and lacking in
any GOOD debate skills. All you can do is repeatedly come in
here and talk about how god awful katas or forms are. Shut
up already. The next thread you should post in here is that you're
fighting in the UFC. If it's not, then how about coming in here
with some tolerance, instead of insults?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by asoka



By my comment I meant,traditional arts that practice katas need to wake up and get rid of these forms,get down to what really works now instead of what worked back then.Punching and kicking in air does ****.The stances are also useless.In a real situation you won't have time to go into a stance and if you block or kick the way you do katas you'll lose.

By the above statement I can see the level and type of karate that you have been exposed to.
Your opinion is based on a lack of knowledge of the fundamentals of kata training and stances.

Originally posted by asoka

You're as good as you've been taught and practice in class.

And your own karate teacher is to blame for your lack of in depth knowledge on that subject............not the art.



Mr. Kirk (or is it Cpt. Kirk?)

Let's give Asoka a chance to enlighten us with his great knowledge of Karate. Since he has "been there and done that" he no doubt has sucked the very marrow out of the bones of karate and digested all it has to offer, and he knows that Karate kata and stances suck so bad maybe he can tell us what their original intention was for.


Asoka,

Since you seem to have such a broad and sweeping knowledge of the purpose kata and stances can you give us poor "backwardass traditionalists" some inkling of what they were/are for and why they don't work?

 

[Matt Stone]

When confronted with a person that proclaims the utter uselessness of forms, I am instantly provided with a solution to their ignorance -

Practice their forms MORE. :erg:

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

 

[Cruentus]

So now I'm jumpin' in!!!

:armed: :duel:



Ahhh yes. The ground fighters. One of the Martial Arts Schools that I am affiliated with has a pretty competitive group of submission wrestlers. I like training with them, and doing different types of no-holds-barred stuff with them, but these competition based styles are not an end-all.

A huge mistake that I see competition based martial artist (especially "no-holds-barred" fighters) is that many of them tend to think that their way is the only way, which just isn't so. There isn't anything to substitute for real combat or real fighting. No type of competition or Kata can fully prepare someone for a life and death situation.

A "no-holds-barred" fight is really ground wrestling with strikes. The rules prevent it from being a real fight in the same manner that the rules for kickboxing prevent a kickboxing match from becoming a wrestling match.

I'm not saying that grappling has no value, it's just that many grapplers think that "no-holds-barred" competitions are the same as a street scenario, or at least not that much different, anyhow. It is a sobering experience for them when they are caught in a street confrontation and it doesn't go down like they'd expect.

The point is, the best thing we can do for ourselves as people who study martial arts is to stay humble, and to not have false-confidance. Some people like to compete, some drill, some do Kata, some do all three. It doesn't matter. Do what you like; just be aware of the applications and adjustments that you'll make in real combat. An old Tai Chi man can beat a young grappler in combat. Why? Anything can happend, that's why!

So, Asoka, don't knock the Kata people. I'm not much of a Kata guy either, but if that's the way they express themselves then great. Combative application, awareness, and instinct is what will allow one to survive the fight, not just octagon cage fighting.

:soapbox:

 

[sweeper]

nightingale I think that's a diffrent situation, there are some attacks that have very little use in combat and the indirect benafits they give you by practice are less than optimal for the amount of time spent practicing.. for example, tricks/acrobatics, from a martial perspective practicing these kinds of things will probably increase your speed your strength and your balance/agility, however other excersisez will give you the same benafit, so unless you like doing them why should you practice them (in place of something else).

What I'm saying is you have a finite amount of time to train, you have to optimise that time. if you know one technique will be usefull and you think one will not and it's a choice between the two, I think it's obvious which one should be dropped.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by asoka



By my comment I meant,traditional arts that practice katas need to wake up and get rid of these forms,get down to what really works now instead of what worked back then.Punching and kicking in air does ****.The stances are also useless.In a real situation you won't have time to go into a stance and if you block or kick the way you do katas you'll lose.

My comment I make for all who claim katas/forms/sets suck: You've either never trained them, or never traied them correctly.

Cthulhu

 

[Bushido]

Originally posted by tonbo

.....that most styles suck. I think that a lot of martial arts are *stuck*.

There are a lot of traditional martial arts that are *so* rooted in tradition that they don't evolve, and don't question what they do. Most martial arts were developed eons ago, under very different circumstances, and were developed to work under the "current" conditions of the times.

However, now we are no longer in those times and situations, and some of the aspects of those arts may need to be adapted. In many cases, there is an overemphasis on tradition, and the art is presented as it always was. What may have worked 1000 years ago in ancient Japan may not work the same today.

Those that don't have enough vision to make the art applicable to the modern society could be doomed to make mistakes, both for themselves and their students (in an actual society).....

Not all arts are bad. Just the way they are applied can be bad. However, again.....part of that is the instructor's job, and part of it is the student's job--to find out what will and won't work, and to go *beyond* the tradition alone.

Peace--

Oh my friend, you are so right. I'm with you on that.

-Bushido

 

[arnisador]

This article discusses the Shu Ha Ri "Imitate, Diverge, Separate" tradition of Japanese systems.

 

[Bushido]

You should email that to some people in that forum

-Bushido

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador

This article discusses the Shu Ha Ri The concept of Shu Ha and Ri is very interesting and goes back to China, not surprisingly.

However, I think most modern martial arts people have taken the idea out of context and feel they can accomplish this in a few years. Which might account for so many young "Soke" and "Grandmasters".


"Imitate, Diverge, Separate"

Are not very in depth definitions of Shu Ha Ri and I think are easily misunderstood.

Alex Kask wrote an excellent definition in his study book; Japanese for the Martial Artist by Tuttle Books.

The term Shu Ha Ri describes 3 levels of development in the martial arts.
During the 1st stage, Shu, the student emulates his master unquestioningly. At the 2nd level, Ha, the student begins to develop his own style.
At the 3rd and final level, Ri, the student has mastered the basic techniques and understands the core principles of the tradition as well as developing a personalized interpretation of it. At the last stage the individual no longer requires instruction.


tradition of Japanese systems.