Examples from the real world involving KMA's

[Kong Soo Do]

We've had a lot of discussion lately concerning sport vs. self-defense vs. traditional vs. whatever. In that regard, I thought it would be interesting, educational and informative to have thread where KMA's could detail examples of the use of their martial training in real world altercations (or those they have firsthand knowledge). The pro's and con's. The do's and don'ts. Was it successful or did the training fail (and why).

Situation: Several years ago, my partner and I were in the day room area of one of the wings in the jail. I was conducting a meeting with 35-40 felons, my partner was in the doorway as my back up. During the meeting I heard everyone in the room 'gasp' and point to the door (which was behind me). I turned and my partner was gone from sight (one of the felons close to the door had jumped him). I ran into the hallway and heard the sounds of a scuffle in the room next to the day room. I ordered everyone to stay in the dayroom (they complied). I entered the room to see my partner grappling with an inmate.
Now, my partner is a large man (6'1 240lbs) with a bodybuilding physique. Very strong with a BJJ background. The inmate was even larger and an EDP (emotionally disturbed person). This made matters even worse as EDP's often exhibit tremendous strength. As I entered, the inmate was in a position of advantage while standing/grappling my partner. The inmates back was to me. At this point, the incident was not at a deadly force level. I entered and delivered six downward elbow strikes to the inmates back, to the right of the spine and just below the shoulder blade. The intent was to distract him from my partner and cause muscular dis-function by fluid shock. This has worked for me in the past. This time, the inmate didn't even know I was there! Later, my partner told me he felt every one of my elbow strikes, through the inmates torso and into his own chest. So I know the blows were powerful. Yet, no results on the EDP inmate.

My partner was wearing his winter jacket (it was winter of course) so that limited his range of motion. He was unable to gain a position of advantage over the inmate as they continued to struggle. They went to the ground with my partner on the bottom. I took a position on the inmates back to try to gain some position of advantage in order to get him off my partner. The area was in the far corner of a 5x10 cell room, in-between the bunk, table and toilet which were all stainless steel and bolted to the walls. So I had no choice but to get on the inmates back as I had no room for anything else.

The inmate began raising himself up to make attempts to strike my partner in the side of the head with a closed fist. My partner at this time was fading out. The alteration had been going on full force for perhaps 30 seconds at this point. Strikes to the head with a closed fist puts us at deadly force per policy (due to documented cases of 'great bodily harm and/or death from such force). At this point I felt the only solution would be to choke out the inmate since strikes had proven ineffective. I ran my hands across him upper torso area on last time looking for something...anything...any type of opening. He shot his right arm out in order to push himself up of my partner in order to give himself enough room to punch. That was the opening I was looking for. I reached out and seized the fingers and locked them into the wrist which in turn locked his elbow, shoulder and waist. His whole body seized up on the right side and he stopped struggling. My partner was able to slip out and we 'cuffed and stuffed' him.

Conclusion: My partner was winded with a few bruises. The inmate had a few bruises but nothing more. The altercation, which could have resulted in the use of deadly force, was resolved with no permanent injury to the EDP as the result of a successful joint lock (my specialty). Strikes were ineffective due to his mental state, but the lock stopped his body from being able to perform on the right side from the waist up to his shoulder and down to his right hand.

 

[puunui]

This isn't a "real world" situation from the perspective of the typical martial arts student, because you are paid to be in this type of situation. You chose to be there, understanding the risks involved. That is your reality. But it isn't necessarily the reality of others. Most people wouldn't want to be prison guard. Sure there are things you can to do to avoid situations, but your ability to avoid is severely limited by your job requirements. The typical student is taught to avoid these types of situations which you are paid to be in the middle of everyday of your working life.

 

[oftheherd1]

This isn't a "real world" situation from the perspective of the typical martial arts student, because you are paid to be in this type of situation. You chose to be there, understanding the risks involved. That is your reality. But it isn't necessarily the reality of others. Most people wouldn't want to be prison guard. Sure there are things you can to do to avoid situations, but your ability to avoid is severely limited by your job requirements. The typical student is taught to avoid these types of situations which you are paid to be in the middle of everyday of your working life.

Your point is taken. I think most MA are taught to attempt to disengage a confrontation before it escalates to physical or imminent physical contact. However, once that option is gone, as it was for the OP, then it is just as real world as it can be. Learning how to disengage is often taught without any thought of teaching MA.

Quite often it is taught to young children at home or at school. In MA, we learn it for a variety of reasons; because we possess greater (even dangerous) fighting skills (we hope), because it is a "right" thing to do; because we don't want legal problems, etc.

The closest I ever came to using my MA was during an apprehension of a suspected blackmarketeer in Korea. When MPs attempted to apprehend him he put up a quite spirited fight, and was rather muscular. I was shopping with my family, and had to leave my young daughters with a PX employee (wasn't taking them near) while I investigated the problem, which I could hear but not see. When I got there, there were 5 or 6 MPs in and out of uniform holding this guy on the floor where he continued to struggle.

One had him in an arm lock, but it seemed ineffective. I reached past the arm lock, got hold of his wrist and applied a strong and painful lock, telling him that was it, and to stop. He did. Nothing to it on my part. The others did all the work and took all the bruises. I just gave the guy the incentive he needed to stop.

What I later complained about was the rest suddenly found other things they needed to do and left me alone with the guy. Fortunately, he no longer was in a fighting mood. And considering the effort needed to subdue him to the point they had before I arrived, I guess I can't blame them for wanting to be away from there.

 

[jks9199]

This isn't a "real world" situation from the perspective of the typical martial arts student, because you are paid to be in this type of situation. You chose to be there, understanding the risks involved. That is your reality. But it isn't necessarily the reality of others. Most people wouldn't want to be prison guard. Sure there are things you can to do to avoid situations, but your ability to avoid is severely limited by your job requirements. The typical student is taught to avoid these types of situations which you are paid to be in the middle of everyday of your working life.

OK, granted that a prison is not a "normal" environment for most folks. It's still a real, functional application of his martial arts training outside the training hall floor, no? And, let's be real. Most people taking martial arts today are not likely to get in many fights, for lots of reasons, unless they are paid to be there somehow, like a police officer, corrections officer, or some sort of security officer.

Nor is disengagement always the best or most appropriate action. But that's a topic for another thread.

I'm looking forward to reading more accounts of people actually applying their martial arts training to real altercations.

 

[Manny]

We've had a lot of discussion lately concerning sport vs. self-defense vs. traditional vs. whatever. In that regard, I thought it would be interesting, educational and informative to have thread where KMA's could detail examples of the use of their martial training in real world altercations (or those they have firsthand knowledge). The pro's and con's. The do's and don'ts. Was it successful or did the training fail (and why).

Situation: Several years ago, my partner and I were in the day room area of one of the wings in the jail. I was conducting a meeting with 35-40 felons, my partner was in the doorway as my back up. During the meeting I heard everyone in the room 'gasp' and point to the door (which was behind me). I turned and my partner was gone from sight (one of the felons close to the door had jumped him). I ran into the hallway and heard the sounds of a scuffle in the room next to the day room. I ordered everyone to stay in the dayroom (they complied). I entered the room to see my partner grappling with an inmate.
Now, my partner is a large man (6'1 240lbs) with a bodybuilding physique. Very strong with a BJJ background. The inmate was even larger and an EDP (emotionally disturbed person). This made matters even worse as EDP's often exhibit tremendous strength. As I entered, the inmate was in a position of advantage while standing/grappling my partner. The inmates back was to me. At this point, the incident was not at a deadly force level. I entered and delivered six downward elbow strikes to the inmates back, to the right of the spine and just below the shoulder blade. The intent was to distract him from my partner and cause muscular dis-function by fluid shock. This has worked for me in the past. This time, the inmate didn't even know I was there! Later, my partner told me he felt every one of my elbow strikes, through the inmates torso and into his own chest. So I know the blows were powerful. Yet, no results on the EDP inmate.

My partner was wearing his winter jacket (it was winter of course) so that limited his range of motion. He was unable to gain a position of advantage over the inmate as they continued to struggle. They went to the ground with my partner on the bottom. I took a position on the inmates back to try to gain some position of advantage in order to get him off my partner. The area was in the far corner of a 5x10 cell room, in-between the bunk, table and toilet which were all stainless steel and bolted to the walls. So I had no choice but to get on the inmates back as I had no room for anything else.

The inmate began raising himself up to make attempts to strike my partner in the side of the head with a closed fist. My partner at this time was fading out. The alteration had been going on full force for perhaps 30 seconds at this point. Strikes to the head with a closed fist puts us at deadly force per policy (due to documented cases of 'great bodily harm and/or death from such force). At this point I felt the only solution would be to choke out the inmate since strikes had proven ineffective. I ran my hands across him upper torso area on last time looking for something...anything...any type of opening. He shot his right arm out in order to push himself up of my partner in order to give himself enough room to punch. That was the opening I was looking for. I reached out and seized the fingers and locked them into the wrist which in turn locked his elbow, shoulder and waist. His whole body seized up on the right side and he stopped struggling. My partner was able to slip out and we 'cuffed and stuffed' him.

Conclusion: My partner was winded with a few bruises. The inmate had a few bruises but nothing more. The altercation, which could have resulted in the use of deadly force, was resolved with no permanent injury to the EDP as the result of a successful joint lock (my specialty). Strikes were ineffective due to his mental state, but the lock stopped his body from being able to perform on the right side from the waist up to his shoulder and down to his right hand.

Pretty-pretty scary!!! this was a real self defense situation that only two gud guy could manage, I am happy for your partner to having near.

Don't you have stunt guns (tassers,etc) at hand for that kind of close encounters?

Manny

 

[Manny]

Well thanks god I haven't have to fight for my life and hope never have to, the only fights I've been involved was in elementary school (please don't laugh) some I won some I lose. The only altercation I had many years ago was in a bar where a large budy and myself used a tackle to drop three or so drunk men and the fight endend there cause the waiters and owners of the bar (friends of mine) settle things and call the police to carry these men to jail.

However there some times I have those bad dreams about defending myself and even my best blows and kicks cause no effect on the bad guy and that's pretty scary, also I have had nightmares where my pistol does not fire/jam or what ever or my shots don't drop the bad guy.

I am not a LEO, I used to do practical pistol shooting and I have some registered guns in home for home security, I don't carry a gun.

I carried a pair of scrima sticks on my car (yes I always have my martial art stuff in the car) but lately I've been thinking getting a collapsible baton for just in case.

Manny

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This isn't a "real world" situation from the perspective of the typical martial arts student, because you are paid to be in this type of situation. You chose to be there, understanding the risks involved. That is your reality. But it isn't necessarily the reality of others. Most people wouldn't want to be prison guard. Sure there are things you can to do to avoid situations, but your ability to avoid is severely limited by your job requirements. The typical student is taught to avoid these types of situations which you are paid to be in the middle of everyday of your working life.

First as a clarification, I'm not a prison guard. I'm a Deputy (two entirely different things).

Secondly, your missing the point entirely. The thread is for individuals to post real world examples of how they've used their training. Whether an 'on-duty' example or someone being accosted in a parking lot, both are real world examples of how things worked or didn't work. What principles were use? What techniques? What strategies? What can be learned? This type of thing. Everything has a take home point and even a bad example can be useful for training purposes.

Take home points in my example;

• Even powerful strikes in non-lethal areas can fail.
• A situation which starts out at less-than-lethal levels can quickly escalate.
• A proper joint lock, at the appropriate time, can immobilize even an EDP.
• Be as patient as possible for the situation, look for openings.

This is the purpose of the thread. I believe I made that clear in the OP.

 

[Archtkd]

First as a clarification, I'm not a prison guard. I'm a Deputy (two entirely different things).

Secondly, your missing the point entirely. The thread is for individuals to post real world examples of how they've used their training. Whether an 'on-duty' example or someone being accosted in a parking lot, both are real world examples of how things worked or didn't work. What principles were use? What techniques? What strategies? What can be learned? This type of thing. Everything has a take home point and even a bad example can be useful for training purposes.

Take home points in my example;

• Even powerful strikes in non-lethal areas can fail.
• A situation which starts out at less-than-lethal levels can quickly escalate.
• A proper joint lock, at the appropriate time, can immobilize even an EDP.
• Be as patient as possible for the situation, look for openings.

This is the purpose of the thread. I believe I made that clear in the OP.

Interesting story, but what can be learned from these types of "real world" posts is questionable. Something like this is subject to too wide and diverse an opinion as to be useful to many, especially in a Taekwondo forum. I also think this is a very job specific issue. While few Taekwondoin have experienced a jail attack, is there any veteran beat cop or jail guard who could not tell a story like this? Some of the contradictory conclusions that could be made from your story include:

1. The prisoner, while clumsy in his attack, apparently overcame a big trained deputy.The deputy might need lots more work on his BJJ.

2. The deputy was ill prepared and out of mental or physical shape to deal with the attack . Again, maybe he needs more training.

3. Your response, given that the prisoner did not attack you, and had his back to you, is not the best example of self defense "in the streets." where total surprise rules. I would expect a deputy in a jail full of inmates to be prepared for an attack at any moment, at leas if we are to believe what we see on TV.

4. A boxer can argue that a short sharp hook to the prisoners' kidney, from behind, would have solved the problem in one second. Key word: argue.

5. We can't really conclude that this situation started out at "less-than-lethal level." Actually what is that? Do we really know the intent of the attacker?

5. Etc. etc.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Interesting story, but what can be learned from these types of "real world" posts is questionable.

Quite a bit can be learned if one is open to it. I've listed some viable things for anyone to consider during a violent attack. Things that aren't covered in many Dojangs.

1. The prisoner, while clumsy in his attack, apparently overcame a big trained deputy.The deputy might need lots more work on his BJJ.

Actually, his BJJ was pretty good. But, and again this is a take home point for everyone reading to consider, environmental conditions can alter someone's game plan. For example, BJJ on an open, level mat is one thing. In a very crowded environment it is quite another. The fact that it was a jail cell is not relevant. It could have been an elevator, a small hallway, between two parked cars or a bedroom with furniture. Additionally, he was wearing a large winter jacket. That is what should be taken from the example.

• Does your/my/our training require a well lit, dry, flat, soft surface to be effective?
• Does your/my/our training require a specific amount of distance from the attacker to be effective.
• Does the type of clothing we wear help or hinder our reactions?
• Do we train in just one type of clothing or do we consider and train in 'street clothing' from time to time?

These are the types of things that examples such as this can bring out. It is for the reader to perhaps have a 'light bulb' moment and say to him/herself, "Hey...maybe a street clothing night should be tossed in from time to time...see what happens". Or, "Hmm...maybe we should put some obstacles on the mat like chairs and table to simulate a closed in environment...see what happens and what we can do to deal with it".

That's the type of stuff I'm talking about here.

2. The deputy was ill prepared and out of mental or physical shape to deal with the attack . Again, maybe he needs more training.

Perhaps. Can this serve as an example for all of us to be better prepared and more aware of our surroundings? Sure it can. Which is why this thread was created.

3. Your response, given that the prisoner did not attack you, and had his back to you, is not the best example of self defense "in the streets." where total surprise rules. I would expect a deputy in a jail full of inmates to be prepared for an attack at any moment, at leas if we are to believe what we see on TV.

Would there ever be a time where we might come to the aid of someone being attacked. Sure there is, be it a stranger or a loved one. Again, the location isn't a vital thing as it could happen in the middle of the mall or in a parking lot.

And too be honest, T.V. isn't the best source of information usually.

4. A boxer can argue that a short sharp hook to the prisoners' kidney, from behind, would have solved the problem in one second. Key word: argue.

Yes, and on a normal individual it may work well. On an EDP, maybe not. I've seen an EDP take multiple groin shots and laugh while he's throwing multiple people around. So this serves as a good example, regardless of where the encounter occurs of possible ways to deal with an EDP.

5. We can't really conclude that this situation started out at "less-than-lethal level." Actually what is that? Do we really know the intent of the attacker?

Again, the actions of the situation dictate what level your at. Wrestling around probably wouldn't meet the definition of letal/deadly force from a legal standpoint although subject factors can weigh in on the final conclusion. However, blows to the head with a closed fist often (depending on local) can be a platform for the use of lethal/deadly force. Take home points;

• Do practitioners know their local laws?
• Do they know how to find out?
• Are they encouraged or educated by their instructor on levels of force and possible legal ramifications?

Again, just from this one example we can find a plethora of useful things that we should all consider, train for, prepare for and educate ourselves in ahead of time.

 

[puunui]

OK, granted that a prison is not a "normal" environment for most folks. It's still a real, functional application of his martial arts training outside the training hall floor, no? And, let's be real. Most people taking martial arts today are not likely to get in many fights, for lots of reasons, unless they are paid to be there somehow, like a police officer, corrections officer, or some sort of security officer.

So if that is true, then why the big push to emphasize "self defense" in martial arts schools, especially those whose primary student base are children?

 

[puunui]

Secondly, your missing the point entirely. The thread is for individuals to post real world examples of how they've used their training. Whether an 'on-duty' example or someone being accosted in a parking lot, both are real world examples of how things worked or didn't work.

I disagree on your definition of the term "real world". To the average martial arts student, your example is not "real world" because they don't belong to that world, just like they do not belong to a world where drive by shootings are common or where kids use cell phones to activate land mines. Giving examples of these types of "real world" situations does them no good, because again, it is not their world. And if that is true, then why should they have to prepare for that type of situation? And asking someone to prepare for that has about as much value as saying that someone in Hawaii should go out and buy snow chains for their tires. Maybe in your real world, that would be a prudent thing to do, but not for me in my real world.

 

[puunui]

Quite a bit can be learned if one is open to it. I've listed some viable things for anyone to consider during a violent attack. Things that aren't covered in many Dojangs.

Maybe they aren't covered because the students are there for reasons other than self defense from a violent attack. Maybe in your real world, working with felons, that is an important consideration, but perhaps in someone else's real world, it is not so important.

For example, in your profession as a law enforcement officer, do you think that sidearms are an important and necessary piece of equipment that should be carried with you at all times? If so, do you think that a 3 year old white belt Taekwondo student should be similarly equipped?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So if that is true, then why the big push to emphasize "self defense" in martial arts schools, especially those whose primary student base are children?

This wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to offer my thoughts. While it is probably true the chidren make up the bulk of many, if not most commercial TKD Dojangs there are also teens and adults. Children need different training i.e. bullies, avoiding strangers, abduction prevention etc. Teens and adults though can benefit greatly from an SD mindset, even if the school is primarily sport centered. Although a 'sport-only' school that has no experience on the SD side of the fence isn't qualified to teach SD, they can still go a long way towards some general education for the students.

And, there are many TKD schools that do provide good SD training. And any additional things they may be able to pick up in this thread (or any other) is only a plus for their students. It is my firm belief that an instructor is always looking for information that can be of value to their students. Since no one knows it all (I certainly don't) then the sharing of information (such as this thread and others) can provide previously unknown or not-considered information.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I disagree on your definition of the term "real world".

That really isn't a surprise.

Maybe in your real world, that would be a prudent thing to do, but not for me in my real world.

So your saying there will never be a chance that you need to aid another human being that is being attacked? Or that you wouldn't aid him/her?

So your saying that there is no chance of ever encountering an EDP?

So your saying that there is no chance that your strike is ineffective and you need to go to something else?

That's a nice world you live in.

Maybe they aren't covered because the students are there for reasons other than self defense from a violent attack.

Education is always a plus regardless of the primary reason for training.

For example, in your profession as a law enforcement officer, do you think that sidearms are an important and necessary piece of equipment that should be carried with you at all times? If so, do you think that a 3 year old white belt Taekwondo student should be similarly equipped?

Why, do you think a 3 year old needs one? That is a very silly statement on your part and your grasping at straws.

Perhaps, if in your world you don't need any SD things to consider...or you have nothing positive to contribute to the topic of the thread you should perhaps not burden yourself with posting here. That way the thread remains on track and unclutered for those that may actually have something of their own to contribute or possibly use from what is posted that is on topic.

 

[puunui]

Children need different training i.e. bullies, avoiding strangers, abduction prevention etc. Teens and adults though can benefit greatly from an SD mindset, even if the school is primarily sport centered. Although a 'sport-only' school that has no experience on the SD side of the fence isn't qualified to teach SD, they can still go a long way towards some general education for the students.

But you didn't answer the question: WHY is self defense training so important, if as the other poster stated, the majority of students will never get into a self defense situation in their entire lives?

PS: Most dojang neither emphasize self defense nor sport, but rather cater to what the overwhelming majority of students seem to want from a martial arts experience today -- which is exercise, health, discipline of mind, respect taught to children, and family time. The "sport vs. self defense" dichotomy really does not apply. And to tell you the truth, I don't think it ever applied. It was never "either or" of those two choices.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Don't you have stunt guns (tassers,etc) at hand for that kind of close encounters?

Manny,

Back then we carried a S&W Model 64 .38 revolver with six rounds and no speed loaders. And when we had to go on the inside of the jail the weapons were stored on the outside. We didn't even have Mace or O.C. when I first started.

Nowadays our belts look like something out of a Batman movie.

 

[puunui]

So your saying there will never be a chance that you need to aid another human being that is being attacked? Or that you wouldn't aid him/her?
So your saying that there is no chance of ever encountering an EDP? So your saying that there is no chance that your strike is ineffective and you need to go to something else?
That's a nice world you live in.

Most people, especially those sending their kids and themselves to suburban dojang paying $150 or more per month for lessons do live in a nice world. They certainly live in a different world than the one that you live in, where the possibility of an inmate attacking you is real. As for those things never happening, I am sure there is a possibility that it may happen, but the possibility is so small that it is not worth it to the majority of students to devote substantial time and energy to develop self defense skills that they will most probably never use. It may snow tomorrow in Hawaii, but that miniscule probability isn't worth me investing in snow chains or a heater for my house. Why should I prepare for the blizzard that will most probably never happen?

Why, do you think a 3 year old needs one? That is a very silly statement on your part and your grasping at straws.

I'm not grasping at straws, I'm using an extreme example in an effort to get you to see things other than from your own viewpoint. Other people don't want or need self defense skills in the same way that you want or need them. And it should be ok for them to be martial arts students too, just like it should be ok for martial arts instructors to focus the training for these types of students on areas other than self defense.

Perhaps, if in your world you don't need any SD things to consider...or you have nothing positive to contribute to the topic of the thread you should perhaps not burden yourself with posting here. That way the thread remains on track and unclutered for those that may actually have something of their own to contribute or possibly use from what is posted that is on topic.

I am contributing positively to the thread. Sorry you feel otherwise. And I've posted several self defense situations on MT as well. You want more examples? I am not opposed to self defense training; what I am opposed to is the idea of some that self defense is the be all and end all of martial arts training, that if you are not primarily focused on self defense training, then something is wrong with either you, your instructor, your school or your art.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I am not opposed to self defense training; what I am opposed to is the idea of some that self defense is the be all and end all of martial arts training, that if you are not primarily focused on self defense training, then something is wrong with either you, your instructor, your school or your art.

No one stated that you're a loser if you train something other than SD. That is your misperception. And if a particular individual wants nothing to do with SD, then no one is forcing them to participate or even view this particular thread.

However, if an individual does teach/train for SD, or, teach/trains for some other reason but would like to take a look at some additional tools for the tool box then here's the thread (among others) for them to view and participate in.

 

[puunui]

No one stated that you're a loser if you train something other than SD. That is your misperception.

No it is not my misperception. There have been plenty of posts which have stated exactly that, that you are a loser if you train for something other than self defense. In fact, you infer as much in your posts as well.

And if a particular individual wants nothing to do with SD, then no one is forcing them to participate or even view this particular thread.

If you notice, until I responded to your post, no one else had. In fact, there has been no response thus far with anyone volunteering a self defense scenario similar to the one you told us about.

However, if an individual does teach/train for SD, or, teach/trains for some other reason but would like to take a look at some additional tools for the tool box then here's the thread (among others) for them to view and participate in.

Let's hope someone else chimes in with a story. Currently, yours is the only one in the thread.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Let's hope someone else chimes in with a story.

That's what this thread is for.