Every fight is potentially a life-or-death event

[Bill Mattocks]

I've said this before; I think it bears repeating. Getting into a fight willingly, when you can disengage and walk or run away, is not 'self-defense'

The reason is that self-defense is about defending one's own life. Fighting is a last resort, not a first resort, because fighting can end in death, even when it was never the intent.

Here's another example...

Suspect facing murder charges after man he punched in face dies

"A St. Cloud man who punched another man in the face early Saturday is now in jail and facing murder charges in connection with the victim's death, St. Cloud police said.

It was around 2:40 a.m. when the 21-year-old suspect got into a verbal dispute with the victim, identified by police as Anthony Quinn Shriver, 22, of Waconia.

Shriver was walking home with friends when he encountered the suspect. The two exchanged words and the suspect punched Shriver in the face near the intersection of 9th Avenue and 7th Street, witnesses on the scene told police.

Shriver complained of a headache but had no other visible signs of injury after the early-morning confrontation and refused medical treatment. He went home with friends, but several hours later officers were sent to a residence on 10th Avenue S. where Shriver was found unresponsive.

Paramedics initiated lifesaving measures but were unable to revive him, said assistant chief Jeff Oxton.

Police determined that Shriver was the victim of the assault that occurred earlier that morning, Oxton said."​

One punch. A young man punches another young man in the face after closing time. Some time later, the man who was punched dies. What was a simple assault charge is now a murder charge.

Why?

Because you're responsible for your actions. The fact that you didn't mean to kill the person you punched means very little.

If you can avoid fighting, that is true self-defense. Fighting is for when there is no other option.

We train to fight to defend ourselves. But if we can disengage without fighting, we're actually respecting the principles of self-defense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is one of the concepts I discuss with my students. Even if I "know" I could win a fight, I'd rather walk away. No matter how good I am, there's always a chance the other guy gets past my defense (he's better than I think, or I make a mistake, or I slip/trip on something).

How much is the chance? I don't think we can really quantify it accurately, because it changes based on too many different variables. What I know is there's a lesser chance of getting hurt or killed if the fight doesn't ever happen.

The tricky part is balancing that with proper pre-emption. We have to make a judgment call as to whether it's still possible to avoid the fight (that requires their cooperation).

 

[oftheherd1]

Well, no, we shouldn't be too quick to get into fights. But there is that pesky combination of alcohol and ego.

Even without the tragic death, there could have been a charge of assault and battery. Personally, as much as we as MA tend to have Type A personalities, a little ego loss is better than a long time freedom loss in the hoosegow.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Dr. John Painter told a story at one of his seminars, a few years back, about a question he asked his teacher

He asked what he should he get involved and fight with a guy who is being a bully and his teacher responded with don't fight.
He came up with multiple scenarios and asked his teacher many more times about what he should do and his teacher continued to answer "don't fight"
Finally he came up with one where he was cornered and left no choice but to fight. His teacher responded with "Kill him"....then go kill his family so they can't seek revenge on you. Dr. Painter said "I don't want to kill anyone". His teacher then said "Don't fight"

My Jujutsu Sensei who was a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt (sorry, I'm getting old and can't remember how many strips he had) in Jujutsu, black belt in karate, studied Kung fu and was a master fencer instilled in us that fighting was a very serious thing and not to be taken lightly. If you fight, you have to understand that you will have to live with the consequences of that fight. Only fight when there is no other choice. He also use to tell us stories about situations he was face with where people wanted to fight and how he solved it by running away.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What I know is there's a lesser chance of getting hurt or killed if the fight doesn't ever happen.

Bam!

Here's a conversation I had with a fellow student once, who had just gotten into a 'self-defense' fight.

"Could you have walked away without being injured?"
"Well, yeah, but he..."
"Nope, don't want to hear it. That's not self-defense. Glad you're OK, but if you think you were engaging in self-defense, you're mistaken."

If you have the option to walk without risk, take it. If not, then fight. Refer to your excellent statement above for risk factors.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've said this before; I think it bears repeating. Getting into a fight willingly, when you can disengage and walk or run away, is not 'self-defense'

The reason is that self-defense is about defending one's own life. Fighting is a last resort, not a first resort, because fighting can end in death, even when it was never the intent.

Here's another example...

Suspect facing murder charges after man he punched in face dies

"A St. Cloud man who punched another man in the face early Saturday is now in jail and facing murder charges in connection with the victim's death, St. Cloud police said.

It was around 2:40 a.m. when the 21-year-old suspect got into a verbal dispute with the victim, identified by police as Anthony Quinn Shriver, 22, of Waconia.

Shriver was walking home with friends when he encountered the suspect. The two exchanged words and the suspect punched Shriver in the face near the intersection of 9th Avenue and 7th Street, witnesses on the scene told police.

Shriver complained of a headache but had no other visible signs of injury after the early-morning confrontation and refused medical treatment. He went home with friends, but several hours later officers were sent to a residence on 10th Avenue S. where Shriver was found unresponsive.

Paramedics initiated lifesaving measures but were unable to revive him, said assistant chief Jeff Oxton.

Police determined that Shriver was the victim of the assault that occurred earlier that morning, Oxton said."​

One punch. A young man punches another young man in the face after closing time. Some time later, the man who was punched dies. What was a simple assault charge is now a murder charge.

Why?

Because you're responsible for your actions. The fact that you didn't mean to kill the person you punched means very little.

If you can avoid fighting, that is true self-defense. Fighting is for when there is no other option.

We train to fight to defend ourselves. But if we can disengage without fighting, we're actually respecting the principles of self-defense.

I'm going to address the Victim. Always manage the conflicts that you get into. Don't rely on the other person to see "good reasoning" or to have a desire to walk away. Manage the distance so it takes more effort for someone to reach you. If you are going to take a risk at being punched then don't risk a clean and solid hit

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm going to address the Victim. Always manage the conflicts that you get into. Don't rely on the other person to see "good reasoning" or to have a desire to walk away. Manage the distance so it takes more effort for someone to reach you. If you are going to take a risk at being punched then don't risk a clean and solid hit

Consider also that even if a person is hit with a sloppy or otherwise terrible technique, if the person hit slips and falls, hits his head, and dies, it's still a homicide. Consider that people have died of heart attacks after being assaulted, people have been mildly injured, developed complications, and died of those. All possibilities are on the attacker as far as the law is concerned, generally speaking.

In the case I cited, it appears the victim thought he was OK, refused medical treatment, went home. The person who hit him was originally cited for a low-grade misdemeanor assault and released. The charge was upgraded after the victim passed.

Anything can happen. It doesn't have to be a good clean hit. It could be a swing and a miss, followed by slipping on ice or loose gravel, and whacking one's head on the ground. It's happened - happened near here a few years ago. Just two drunks in a bar parking lot. One guy swung wild at the other, the other jumped back, slipped on a parking divider, and whammo. Game over.

 

[drop bear]

You can't always avoid things in your life just because there is risk involved.

You just don't get any life done that way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can't always avoid things in your life just because there is risk involved.

You just don't get any life done that way.

No, but you can avoid things because risk is involved and no real reward, when you have a choice. I enjoyed rock climbing - some controlled risk there, but a lot of reward, too.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

While I agree with the sentiment, I dislike using anecdotes like this. It comes off to me as fear mongering, like that person who tells a teenager a story about a girl who got pregnant even though they used protection, so you shouldn't have sex.

Obviously a different scenario, but in both you're using a very low probability (you're probably not going to kill a guy with a punch, and you're probably not going to get your girlfriend pregnant if you use protection), to encourage people to not engage in a risky situation with less extreme consequences (in both situations). It's just not effective.

As for your statement about it not being self-defense, that depends. You could be defending your ego, which is part of yourself, your pride, your body etc. Are those worth the risk to defend? Probably not, at least from my opinion/experience, and it would be better to take the hit to whatever than risk your life/jail time, but they are still technically defending themselves.

 

[Steve]

Every thing is potentially life or death. Isn't it? I don't quite understand the distinction here.

 

[Brian King]

While you may want to 'fight' you should be willing to walk away from it. That said, you should be willing and able to fight. Often that willingness is, if not the, at least a, key in successful de-escalation. It takes at least two for de-escalation to work and often the willingness of the fight is sensed by the other and that sometimes brings in doubt and fear. That willingness to fight along with the willingness to walk away by 'the victim' permits saving of ego by an aggressor as well as permission to disengage.
Your mileage may vary
Regards
Brian King

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Self-defense is more than just to defense yourself. It also includes to protect others. When someone attacks your love one, even if you can walk away, you shouldn't.

 

[drop bear]

No, but you can avoid things because risk is involved and no real reward, when you have a choice. I enjoyed rock climbing - some controlled risk there, but a lot of reward, too.

I still don't think this focus on risk is very good at mentally preparing someone for engaging in the exact same risky behavior you are training them for.

So while it sells memberships and sounds great. I do not think violence as a last resort because you could die or kill someone is the right way to approach this discussion.

I also believe good mental preparation is vital for any self defence training and does not necessarily get the depth of training it deserves within the self defence industry.

When we weigh the risks we need to be mindful of the outcomes. But also be able to engage in that risky action with enough confidence to achieve the task. This comes down to my ongoing idea that fighting really needs to be a clinical decision. And not based on mood.

Bear in mind fighting is not a last resort. Choosing to stand there and get your face smashed in is.

 

[Jenna]

While you may want to 'fight' you should be willing to walk away from it. That said, you should be willing and able to fight. Often that willingness is, if not the, at least a, key in successful de-escalation. It takes at least two for de-escalation to work and often the willingness of the fight is sensed by the other and that sometimes brings in doubt and fear. That willingness to fight along with the willingness to walk away by 'the victim' permits saving of ego by an aggressor as well as permission to disengage.
Your mileage may vary
Regards
Brian King

In my view yours is concise and accurate thinking Brian I would believe is gathered from experience!

For me, to fight have often been not at all the last resort yet it have been the resort for the most decisive outcome overall because for me leastwise, physical aggression is not always one single solitary incident..

I had walked away where I worked plenty of time and was accosted later when I left by that person who externalise and attach all of their ongoing problems to me! and right there at that point is not space in their mind for rational communication, that option is devalued to zero. I had found in that situation, even to run away do not preclude them returning subsequently.. is dojo mentality to draw conclusions that are absolutes.. I cannot see absolutes

Likewise, the saving of face as you outline Brian I too have found this a crucial aspect of diffusion in both equally important aspects: first in concluding a physical confrontation and but moreover, in ameliorating that person anger towards me or perhaps some one I had work alongside and thereby mitigating chances of the same situation happen over again! To not fight would not contribute to this..

Saving of face yes, to allow someone, irrespective of it being that person who began that aggression, to disengage on their terms rather than trying to either win over them or run away from them and but -if my martial art work at all- to use physical technique to show to them they cannot achieve what they are try to achieve by the means they are trying to achieve it, and that further, it is them -and but only of their own volition- who must capitulate.. that is what I continually conclude to be the means to the most harmonious outcome in any physical altercation..

To avoid or run away yes that can work of course, is entirely dependent upon situation, like you rightly say, mileage may vary, however to suggest this is exclusively "true" defence, no I could not assent to that by any implied statute of man or higher Jxoxo

 

[oftheherd1]

You can't always avoid things in your life just because there is risk involved.

You just don't get any life done that way.

You can't always avoid. But you may know that at least in the USA business community and the military, Risk Assessment is a very formalized response to the possibility to threats. So first, a Threat Assessment, then a Risk Assessment. Then mitigation proposals.

Nice that these formal assessments can be usually be checked out and discussed over a relatively long time. Unfortunately, given a threat 'on the street,' there may be little time. But physical training, aforehand brainstorming (going through possible scenarios), and any past experience by the potential victim or other sources, may help. I am encouraged that you seem to agree.

I still don't think this focus on risk is very good at mentally preparing someone for engaging in the exact same risky behavior you are training them for.

So while it sells memberships and sounds great. I do not think violence as a last resort because you could die or kill someone is the right way to approach this discussion.

I also believe good mental preparation is vital for any self defence training and does not necessarily get the depth of training it deserves within the self defence industry.

When we weigh the risks we need to be mindful of the outcomes. But also be able to engage in that risky action with enough confidence to achieve the task. This comes down to my ongoing idea that fighting really needs to be a clinical decision. And not based on mood.

Bear in mind fighting is not a last resort. Choosing to stand there and get your face smashed in is.

Bolded:

 

[jobo]

I still don't think this focus on risk is very good at mentally preparing someone for engaging in the exact same risky behavior you are training them for.

So while it sells memberships and sounds great. I do not think violence as a last resort because you could die or kill someone is the right way to approach this discussion.

I also believe good mental preparation is vital for any self defence training and does not necessarily get the depth of training it deserves within the self defence industry.

When we weigh the risks we need to be mindful of the outcomes. But also be able to engage in that risky action with enough confidence to achieve the task. This comes down to my ongoing idea that fighting really needs to be a clinical decision. And not based on mood.

Bear in mind fighting is not a last resort. Choosing to stand there and get your face smashed in is.

I agree, its probably best not to get into fights with people,but some times confrontations are unavoidable and some times that leads to threats of violence and some times to pushing and shoving and some times to actual violence.

I let a let of stuff go now that when I was younger I would be squaring up to some body over. I really can't be bothered, but some times you need to speak up and some times that leads to a fight

I am of the opinion that representing strengh ie looking like you are up for,a,fight is one of the best ways of avoiding a,fight

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Many of the comments expressed here are quite wise and mature. Others are immature, blustering, and ignorant, even coming from older people, which goes quite a ways towards explaining why there is so much idiotic violence in the world. People who can't or won't back down, people who feel that being challenged or taunted or cussed at is a good reason to fight, even if they have the option to walk away. Unfortunate in the extreme. College frat boy idiocy run wild.

 

[jobo]

Many of the comments expressed here are quite wise and mature. Others are immature, blustering, and ignorant, even coming from older people, which goes quite a ways towards explaining why there is so much idiotic violence in the world. People who can't or won't back down, people who feel that being challenged or taunted or cussed at is a good reason to fight, even if they have the option to walk away. Unfortunate in the extreme. College frat boy idiocy run wild.

its your right to back down if you wish, but why are you so judgmental of people who choose to stick up for themselves, that their right and their risk

 

[Bill Mattocks]

its your right to back down if you wish, but why are you so judgmental of people who choose to stick up for themselves, that their right and their risk

Because every foolish and unnecessary death diminishes us all, not to mention costs our society dearly in the form of services and money for hospitals, courts, prisons, and so on. Because road rage. Because morons start wars when they can't walk away and innocent people die. Because angry drunks firing blindly into bars because they were challenged and lost a fight, so they went home and got a gun and started blasting away. Because angry punks driving cars into crowds because they were made fun of. Because our society can't suffer these fools anymore.

That's why I'm so judgmental. It's your choice, but the consequences are paid by all of us. And I've had it up to here with that kind of nonsense.