Etiquette When Looking for a Sparring/Demo Partner from Another Style?

[Flying Crane]

how you came to your conclusion.

how do the grappler methodologys work better when the striker can hit you harder than pretty much any other dynamic other than full contact mma or bare knuckle. And you cant really grab anything. because you have a set of boxing gloves on?

did you say try this with a bunch of quality bjj guys and wrestlers?

did you try this with kick boxers and boxers?

what other methods of mixed style sparring have you done that resolves this problem?

The video you posted supports exactly what I'm saying. Puncher either can't (perhaps because of the gloves he is wearing) or won't hit hard enough to injure the grappler, so grappler rides back and takes a few ineffective shots and then rushes in and takes the puncher down.

When two people face off like this, there is an agreement that nobody actually wants to go the the hospital afterward. Strikes don't work well if they don't do actual damage, or at least give a solid jolt with some pain to disrupt his opponents tactics and make him think twice. So immediately this puts strikes at a disadvantage.

Grappling techniques have a lot more room to operate by controlling an opponent without doing actual injurious damage. He can take his technique up to the point of effectiveness, but short of injury. But striking doesn't have that same wiggle-room. A strike either injures, or it does not. In a friendly face-off, it relies on his buddy respecting a shot that, in reality may or may not have injured him if it was done without gloves and with malicious intent.

So in a friendly face-off, grappling has an immediate advantage. Grappler knows his punching buddy isn't going to really blast him and send him to the hospital, so he can fight defensively and absorb some blows that he knows won't injure him, and then come in and engage at grappling range.

I'm not saying the encounter can't still be useful in training. But I am saying that any friendly face-off automatically favors a grappler, if all other variables are equal.

A little bit of an extreme analogy, but it's a bit like two guys facing off, one has a baseball bat and the other has a rifle. They are told to fight it out, use your weapons, but don't be lethal. One of those guys will have an easier time of it.

 

[drop bear]

The video you posted supports exactly what I'm saying. Puncher either can't (perhaps because of the gloves he is wearing) or won't hit hard enough to injure the grappler, so grappler rides back and takes a few ineffective shots and then rushes in and takes the puncher down.

When two people face off like this, there is an agreement that nobody actually wants to go the the hospital afterward. Strikes don't work well if they don't do actual damage, or at least give a solid jolt with some pain to disrupt his opponents tactics and make him think twice. So immediately this puts strikes at a disadvantage.

Grappling techniques have a lot more room to operate by controlling an opponent without doing actual injurious damage. He can take his technique up to the point of effectiveness, but short of injury. But striking doesn't have that same wiggle-room. A strike either injures, or it does not. In a friendly face-off, it relies on his buddy respecting a shot that, in reality may or may not have injured him if it was done without gloves and with malicious intent.

So in a friendly face-off, grappling has an immediate advantage. Grappler knows his punching buddy isn't going to really blast him and send him to the hospital, so he can fight defensively and absorb some blows that he knows won't injure him, and then come in and engage at grappling range.

I'm not saying the encounter can't still be useful in training. But I am saying that any friendly face-off automatically favors a grappler, if all other variables are equal.

A little bit of an extreme analogy, but it's a bit like two guys facing off, one has a baseball bat and the other has a rifle. They are told to fight it out, use your weapons, but don't be lethal. One of those guys will have an easier time of it.

ok. this was back when i was crap. but you may notice the punches have this effect of me not wanting to get punched. that is because they hurt like hell.

strikes work fine even if they dont do actual damage.

Greg Saunders - Greg Saunders posted a video to his timeline. | Facebook

you will notice the punches are not something i can just wade through. it does not rely on me respecting a shot. if i eat a shot then it ruins what i am trying to do.

there is no dynamic that suggests punching does not work unless it sends you to hospital. that is blatantly incorrect.

 

[Flying Crane]

ok. this was back when i was crap. but you may notice the punches have this effect of me not wanting to get punched. that is because they hurt like hell.

strikes work fine even if they dont do actual damage.

Greg Saunders - Greg Saunders posted a video to his timeline. | Facebook

you will notice the punches are not something i can just wade through. it does not rely on me respecting a shot. if i eat a shot then it ruins what i am trying to do.

there is no dynamic that suggests punching does not work unless it sends you to hospital. that is blatantly incorrect.

That was you in the video? You are the grappler?

What I see is you moving through him and dominating. His punches may hurt, but it doesn't disable you and in the end, you work through them and dominate.

You don't need to even admit that they hurt. You could just ride the fact that you dominate.

So what I'm saying is, the experience may be valuable as a training exercise, but it doesn't give any clear resolution or answers to how the OP might stack up against other systems, particularly grapplers.

The experience may be valuable, but it's important to keep it in context and not draw conclusions that may not be as clear as some might think they are. Just treat it as a valuable experience, and leave it at that.

 

[drop bear]

That was you in the video? You are the grappler?

What I see is you moving through him and dominating. His punches may hurt, but it doesn't disable you and in the end, you work through them and dominate.

You don't need to even admit that they hurt. You could just ride the fact that you dominate.

So what I'm saying is, the experience may be valuable as a training exercise, but it doesn't give any clear resolution or answers to how the OP might stack up against other systems, particularly grapplers.

The experience may be valuable, but it's important to keep it in context and not draw conclusions that may not be as clear as some might think they are. Just treat it as a valuable experience, and leave it at that.

You probably have to do it to get it. But you dont just move through punches.

It will give a clearer picture than not doing it and theorising.

I mean op can go with the small gloves. But he won't be doing himself any favors untill he understands what he is doing. As a mistake will cost him a lot more.

 

[Flying Crane]

You probably have to do it to get it. But you dont just move through punches.

It will give a clearer picture than not doing it and theorising.

I mean op can go with the small gloves. But he won't be doing himself any favors untill he understands what he is doing. As a mistake will cost him a lot more.

Exactly. A mistake on the part of the striker ends with him losing.

As the grappler in the contest, you can get a decisive victory. You can take him down and put him in a joint lock or some other pain-compliance restraint, and it's a clear victory, without doing him any real injury.

For the striker, not so much. He can punch you all day long, and if you keep your feet and defend his strikes and keep coming back then it's hard to say that he won. For a clear and undisputed victory he needs to hit you harder, make you stop coming back, maybe knock you out or break your nose or crack your rib. But if he does that, then he is violating the rule of a friendly face-off: nobody wants to go to the hospital. So to comply with that rule, he needs to hold back what he is doing to the point where it is very difficult to claim a clear victory. He can't do anything decisive.

Again I am assuming all other variables are essentially equal. It is possible that some guy is just vastly superior and you can't get in on him at all while he shows clear ability to hit you at will and he is just toying with you.

But i say, the nature and context of a friendly face-off gives advantage to the grappler. That doesn't automatically mean the grappler is better. It just means that the context give him an advantage.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly. A mistake on the part of the striker ends with him losing.

As the grappler in the contest, you can get a decisive victory. You can take him down and put him in a joint lock or some other pain-compliance restraint, and it's a clear victory, without doing him any real injury.

For the striker, not so much. He can punch you all day long, and if you keep your feet and defend his strikes and keep coming back then it's hard to say that he won. For a clear and undisputed victory he needs to hit you harder, make you stop coming back, maybe knock you out or break your nose or crack your rib. But if he does that, then he is violating the rule of a friendly face-off: nobody wants to go to the hospital. So to comply with that rule, he needs to hold back what he is doing to the point where it is very difficult to claim a clear victory. He can't do anything decisive.

Again I am assuming all other variables are essentially equal. It is possible that some guy is just vastly superior and you can't get in on him at all while he shows clear ability to hit you at will and he is just toying with you.

But i say, the nature and context of a friendly face-off gives advantage to the grappler. That doesn't automatically mean the grappler is better. It just means that the context give him an advantage.

You can just puch the guy for a whole round would be a pretty decisive victory.

Do you usually mess guys up when you spar?

How would this be different?

 

[Flying Crane]

You can just puch the guy for a whole round would be a pretty decisive victory.

Do you usually mess guys up when you spar?

How would this be different?

As i said, someone could show clear dominance, yes that is possible. But probably not as easy to do.

No, I don't mess people up when I spar. That's my point. Most people don't mess up their training partners, or they won't have anyone willing to train with them.

The exercise is valuable as a training exercise. It will give him some experience working against a grappler, and experience can lead to comfort and competence. But for the purposes of the OP as I understand it, the exercise won't give clear answers to how wing chun methods function against a grappler in the general sense. It only shows how he did that day, against that person, in a friendly match. It's pretty difficult to interpret more deeply than that.

 

[drop bear]

As i said, someone could show clear dominance, yes that is possible. But probably not as easy to do.

No, I don't mess people up when I spar. That's my point. Most people don't mess up their training partners, or they won't have anyone willing to train with them.

The exercise is valuable as a training exercise. It will give him some experience working against a grappler, and experience can lead to comfort and competence. But for the purposes of the OP as I understand it, the exercise won't give clear answers to how wing chun methods function against a grappler in the general sense. It only shows how he did that day, against that person, in a friendly match. It's pretty difficult to interpret more deeply than that.

Untill you spar a lot of different people under a lot of different circumstances and then you can start to interpret more deeply.

Which is kind of the point.

It is significantly more of an indication of where you are at than just talking about it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Untill you spar a lot of different people under a lot of different circumstances and then you can start to interpret more deeply.

Which is kind of the point.

It is significantly more of an indication of where you are at than just talking about it.

It is a path to growth, that is true and I don't deny it. Just recognize the inherent limitations in the process, so that any conclusions drawn from it actually make sense.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The problem is, in order to really assess how you would apply your wing chun against a grappler, you would need to hit him hard enough to injure him. With a system that predominantly strikes, that's the only way to really know.

So the other guy has to be willing to accept that.

And if you don't stop him with powerful strikes and he throws you down and injures you, you need to be willing to accept that part of it too.

I can't think of another way to test this stuff , that doesn't include some amount of play-acting for the sake of safety. But if you are play-acting, then you don't really know.

This is problematic.

It's no worse than striking sparring with less than full contact.

A and B are sparring. A lands a strike. B then lands 5 strikes. A: "your strikes don't count because I would have knocked you out with my first strike before you landed yours." B: "Would not!" A: "Would so!"

Yeah, if you want to know absolutely for sure who would "win" a fight, you'll have to throw down for real and try to knock each other out, but that's not really what sparring is about. It's about learning. Plenty of people do mixed striking + grappling sparring all the time, at all levels of contact. If you have experience with getting hit, you can spar with light or moderate contact and make a reasonably accurate assessment of how effective the strikes would have been. You don't ignore shots which would be solid hits in order to march forward and grab your sparring partner for a takedown. When you analyze the match afterwards, you can say "hmm ... I landed a couple of light jabs then he landed a glancing hook then I landed a clean straight cross and tried to shoot for a double-leg but he shoved me back then he landed a good round kick and then I got the clinch, we traded a couple of knees which were mostly blocked, then I got a hip throw, came down to side control, got mount, landed a few punches from mount, then he managed to bridge and escaped to his feet." It's possible that any of the clean strikes or the hip throw might have finished the contest if it was a real fight. That's not the point of the sparring session though. It's to give both partners practice in keeping their opponent's strikes and takedowns from landing cleanly while simultaneously landing their own.

@yak sao and I have done some sparring with super-light contact (mostly because he has some neck issues he is trying not to aggravate). We have no problem acknowledging when each other's technique (striking or grappling) would have been effective. We just keep flowing through different possibilities to see where each of us can find openings.