Joe Shuras
Orange Belt
Okay, no, the rank I recieved in Kajukenbo was from Professor Gerry Scott of Hawaii and it was not honorary and I didn't ask for it in any way, shape or form. This has all been discussed in depth on other threads and forums so I'll keep it short. Gerry made it a point to say it is not honorary. If it were, it would not be on the official Kajukenbo tree and it is. I have a 7th and 8th from SGM. Pesare and a 7th from GGM. Gascon. Another 7th from Prof. Jaime Abregana and Prof. John Pagdilao of Hawaii all recognizing my original 7th. Gerry and I just hooked up recently in Boston and discussed all this history. He is extremely knowledgable and I noticed John used his name among others in a recent post as a credible source to back up something he was debating. Any questions, please refer them to Professor Scott. Pm me if you want his e-mail address. I won't give his phone # w/o his permission.
From what I understood from John, Rich Fescina's rank with Kajukenbo is not honorary either, if I'm wrong I stand corrected but this is what I was told at the time. However, he does teach the Kenpo/Kempo from the same lineage as myself.
To Gufbal: Look at it this way, I am just as much an authority of Kajukenbo as John Bishop is on Karazenpo. Why do you ask me this and not him, in all due respect? He has been debating KGS history with the same passion as I retort back with Kajukenbo history and frankly, I'm sick of it. Again, I don't think you know our history on the various forums over these controversies. I will make an offer, John should stick with Kajukenbo history and keep out of KGS business and, by the same token, I'll stick with KGS history and keep out of Kajukenbo business. Fair enough? So, in a sense, I agree with you but you only saw one side of the coin - Joe
Let me calrify one thing that was posted by Dan earlier before I go on. He mentioned KGS history being updated after the death of Prof. Godin. This situation or revelation between Mr. Godin & Mr. Gascon took place before the death of Prof. Godin.
I have been sent a thesis written by you in 1989, John Evan Bishop, a slight correction from my last post it was October not November of 1989.
"The History and Evolution of Chinese Kenpo Karate A thesis submitted to Rosas Chino Kenpo Karate in partial fullfillment of the rquirements for the ran of Shodan Kenpo Karate October, 1989 Copyright pending by John Evan Bishop."
I see many similarities between our systems and lineages that John and Dan have chosen to pick us apart for in the past, sometimes being a little subtle and other times right out there in our faces. For instance, we're reminded George Pesare began with four forms but you never told me that Joe Rosas started with four forms, (page 65). Mr. Rosas was actually taught 5 katas (but dropped the 5th from his curriculum) but later created two more hand katas and two weapons kata for a total of 6 Empty hand and 2 Weapon. You also that many of the Kajukenbo instrcutors added techniques from other systems (the same as Mr. Pesare did) due to being distanced from the mother school by thousands of miles (page 49 & 65). These forms had elements of only up to the 6 short Kajukenbo pinans originally taught by Sijo Emperado. Rosas' instructor was Dan Guzman. You have Dan Guzman starting Kajukenbo in 1960 (after some training in kendo in the late 50's (page 61). You state he began teaching in 1961 and on August 1, 1963 promoted to black belt by Bill Ryusaki - page 61. You even stated you believed that Leoning's innovations were responsible for the foundation of what Rosas taught (the original forms). You never mentioned that before either in all these history exposes in our debates. Mr. Rosas developed a total of 25 punch counters for his system, this is, again, after he left, and once advanced, students had to learn them mirror image. Mr. Pesare developed 21 combinations after he left and at brown belt it was required to have them all down mirror image. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Villari's SKK has a standard of 26 combinations to 'shodan' with all done mirror image at brown. You state on page 25 Mr. Rosas first and only instructor was Dan Guzman and Guzman retired in 1972 (page 62). Note: Rosas later added 1 knife set containing 10 defenses against a knife and 2 Staff sets - page 64.
Joe Rosas started in 1964, made shodan in 1968 and nidan in 1969. You stated in October of '89, Dan Guzman was his one and only only instructor and that Guzman retired in 1972. (page 62). You state that Rosas just continued on his own to refine and develop his own perspective, actually stated 're-evaluating and improving' (page 64). Gee, sounds a little like Mr. Villari (and others)......anyway, Villari started in 1967 to 1971 under Nick Cerio, made nidan, (probationary) in 1971 and went on to do his own thing. Yet, you have posted in the past how Villari went his merry way (not your exact words but certainly your tone) after getting his probationary nidan from Cerio and promoted himself to 10th in his own organization/system, all said with a touch of sarcasim to say the least. You mention no rank of Mr. Rosas after 2nd dan ( page 62).
For the record, this is no slap at Joe Rosas at all for reading John's bio on him in his thesis, he appears to be an extremely talented and dedicated leader. Many martial artists in all styles and systems market their arts to make a living and essentially run it as a business and that's their perrogative but Mr. Joe Rosas, much like Mr. S. George Pesare and Mr. Victor 'Sonny' Gascon, is not really commerical and I commend and respect him for that. Mr. Rosas has promoted only 8 to black belts up to October of 1989, again, my hat goes off to him! (page 64). Mr. Rosas also taught for little monetary award and and Mr. Bishop witnessed him putting back into the program the money he was paid (page 63 & 64). Sounds like a helluva guy and a credit to his teachers and the martial arts in general.
You also have John Leoning dying of an aneurism in 1978 at 42 (page 58) when in fact he died at 50 in 1977 of a massive coronary. As I stated no one is 100 per cent in their reporting of history. I'm sure at the time you were convinced this to be fact.
There may be some here that do not see the points I have attempted to make regarding the similiarites in quantity of curriculum and other protocols, teaching criteria, dates, etc., that was a common thread among ALL the Hawaiian derived Kempo/Kenpo systems of that early era from the Mitose/Chow lineage, simply because they have not been following other threads and forums. All my examples are pertinent to prior discussions and heated debates or else I would have not wasted my time doing this 'homework'. Jesse, Matt, Mike, Peter and others can all attest to this. My whole point here is not to alienate us but to bring us together for we in this large Kempo/Kenpo extended family share many more similarities in background, history and function then we do differences. No one or art from this group is superior than any other.
All in all, it was an excellent thesis and I have great respect and admiration for John Leoning, Bill Ryusaki, Dan Guzman and Joe Rosas (the names I highlighted from the thesis).
Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe Shuras - Massachusetts State president of the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society.
From what I understood from John, Rich Fescina's rank with Kajukenbo is not honorary either, if I'm wrong I stand corrected but this is what I was told at the time. However, he does teach the Kenpo/Kempo from the same lineage as myself.
To Gufbal: Look at it this way, I am just as much an authority of Kajukenbo as John Bishop is on Karazenpo. Why do you ask me this and not him, in all due respect? He has been debating KGS history with the same passion as I retort back with Kajukenbo history and frankly, I'm sick of it. Again, I don't think you know our history on the various forums over these controversies. I will make an offer, John should stick with Kajukenbo history and keep out of KGS business and, by the same token, I'll stick with KGS history and keep out of Kajukenbo business. Fair enough? So, in a sense, I agree with you but you only saw one side of the coin - Joe
Let me calrify one thing that was posted by Dan earlier before I go on. He mentioned KGS history being updated after the death of Prof. Godin. This situation or revelation between Mr. Godin & Mr. Gascon took place before the death of Prof. Godin.
I have been sent a thesis written by you in 1989, John Evan Bishop, a slight correction from my last post it was October not November of 1989.
"The History and Evolution of Chinese Kenpo Karate A thesis submitted to Rosas Chino Kenpo Karate in partial fullfillment of the rquirements for the ran of Shodan Kenpo Karate October, 1989 Copyright pending by John Evan Bishop."
I see many similarities between our systems and lineages that John and Dan have chosen to pick us apart for in the past, sometimes being a little subtle and other times right out there in our faces. For instance, we're reminded George Pesare began with four forms but you never told me that Joe Rosas started with four forms, (page 65). Mr. Rosas was actually taught 5 katas (but dropped the 5th from his curriculum) but later created two more hand katas and two weapons kata for a total of 6 Empty hand and 2 Weapon. You also that many of the Kajukenbo instrcutors added techniques from other systems (the same as Mr. Pesare did) due to being distanced from the mother school by thousands of miles (page 49 & 65). These forms had elements of only up to the 6 short Kajukenbo pinans originally taught by Sijo Emperado. Rosas' instructor was Dan Guzman. You have Dan Guzman starting Kajukenbo in 1960 (after some training in kendo in the late 50's (page 61). You state he began teaching in 1961 and on August 1, 1963 promoted to black belt by Bill Ryusaki - page 61. You even stated you believed that Leoning's innovations were responsible for the foundation of what Rosas taught (the original forms). You never mentioned that before either in all these history exposes in our debates. Mr. Rosas developed a total of 25 punch counters for his system, this is, again, after he left, and once advanced, students had to learn them mirror image. Mr. Pesare developed 21 combinations after he left and at brown belt it was required to have them all down mirror image. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Villari's SKK has a standard of 26 combinations to 'shodan' with all done mirror image at brown. You state on page 25 Mr. Rosas first and only instructor was Dan Guzman and Guzman retired in 1972 (page 62). Note: Rosas later added 1 knife set containing 10 defenses against a knife and 2 Staff sets - page 64.
Joe Rosas started in 1964, made shodan in 1968 and nidan in 1969. You stated in October of '89, Dan Guzman was his one and only only instructor and that Guzman retired in 1972. (page 62). You state that Rosas just continued on his own to refine and develop his own perspective, actually stated 're-evaluating and improving' (page 64). Gee, sounds a little like Mr. Villari (and others)......anyway, Villari started in 1967 to 1971 under Nick Cerio, made nidan, (probationary) in 1971 and went on to do his own thing. Yet, you have posted in the past how Villari went his merry way (not your exact words but certainly your tone) after getting his probationary nidan from Cerio and promoted himself to 10th in his own organization/system, all said with a touch of sarcasim to say the least. You mention no rank of Mr. Rosas after 2nd dan ( page 62).
For the record, this is no slap at Joe Rosas at all for reading John's bio on him in his thesis, he appears to be an extremely talented and dedicated leader. Many martial artists in all styles and systems market their arts to make a living and essentially run it as a business and that's their perrogative but Mr. Joe Rosas, much like Mr. S. George Pesare and Mr. Victor 'Sonny' Gascon, is not really commerical and I commend and respect him for that. Mr. Rosas has promoted only 8 to black belts up to October of 1989, again, my hat goes off to him! (page 64). Mr. Rosas also taught for little monetary award and and Mr. Bishop witnessed him putting back into the program the money he was paid (page 63 & 64). Sounds like a helluva guy and a credit to his teachers and the martial arts in general.
You also have John Leoning dying of an aneurism in 1978 at 42 (page 58) when in fact he died at 50 in 1977 of a massive coronary. As I stated no one is 100 per cent in their reporting of history. I'm sure at the time you were convinced this to be fact.
There may be some here that do not see the points I have attempted to make regarding the similiarites in quantity of curriculum and other protocols, teaching criteria, dates, etc., that was a common thread among ALL the Hawaiian derived Kempo/Kenpo systems of that early era from the Mitose/Chow lineage, simply because they have not been following other threads and forums. All my examples are pertinent to prior discussions and heated debates or else I would have not wasted my time doing this 'homework'. Jesse, Matt, Mike, Peter and others can all attest to this. My whole point here is not to alienate us but to bring us together for we in this large Kempo/Kenpo extended family share many more similarities in background, history and function then we do differences. No one or art from this group is superior than any other.
All in all, it was an excellent thesis and I have great respect and admiration for John Leoning, Bill Ryusaki, Dan Guzman and Joe Rosas (the names I highlighted from the thesis).
Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe Shuras - Massachusetts State president of the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society.
