The Original Curiculum of Kajukenbo/Karazenpo

[Carol]

Just click on the link and look at the tree. There's probably over a 100 people on the tree who are not Kajukenbo, and don't claim to be. You'll probably recognize George Pesare and many of his black belts on the tree. Nick Cerio and several of his black belts. Craig Seavey, John James, Bill Gregory, Bruce Corrigan, Lou Farralon, Roger Carpenter, Paula Pucino, and many more.

So...speaking as a total idiot here...how is one supposed to tell who is Kajukenbo and who is not? I'm definitely seening names of people that I know aren't Kajukenbo...such as Ed Parker. And I can see names like Kosho Ryu, Kenpo, and Kung Fu. However, it's not really clear to me what is what and who is who. Not to sound dense (well OK, I am dense...LOL), but am I missing something? Or do you just have to know who the players are and where they fall?

 

[Danjo]

What if you do not like the answer.. He still has the rank, and he was told that it was not an honorary. Does this make your senior instructors who signed the diploma wrong? People talk about other organizations doing it, but when its in your own house it seems different. Mr. Bishop says there are a few people who are on the Kajukenbo tree, but are not Kajukenbo. This i do not understand. I have not looked at the tree, but is there a disclaimer that states this, or only people reading this forum aware of this fact?
Jesse

I know the answer. My seniors in the art I train in do not answer to me for what they do or why. However, when someone claims expertise in something that I happen to know they are not an expert in I will bring it out.

As to the rank not being honorary, let me remind you of something Abraham Lincoln used to love to say. He would ask people this question: "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" When people would answer "Five." He'd give them a scathing look and reply, "Four! Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg."

 

[John Bishop]

So...speaking as a total idiot here...how is one supposed to tell who is Kajukenbo and who is not? I'm definitely seening names of people that I know aren't Kajukenbo...such as Ed Parker. And I can see names like Kosho Ryu, Kenpo, and Kung Fu. However, it's not really clear to me what is what and who is who. Not to sound dense (well OK, I am dense...LOL), but am I missing something? Or do you just have to know who the players are and where they fall?

It's hard to picture the whole thing on the website because the hard copy of the document is about 3' X 5'. Your seeing "Ed Parker" on there because William Chow is listed as Sijo Emperado's teacher, and several of Chow's black belts are listed under Chow. Obviously they are not Kajukenbo, except for Abe Kamahoahoa.
The instructors and systems of the other founders are listed above them, so you are seeing kung fu, jujitsu, judo, etc. And names like Henry Okazaki, Sig Kufferath.
Like I said, it's turned into a huge project because of all the groups who wanted inclusion on the tree. It has gone from a "Kajukenbo" tree to a "Emperado" tree.
Systems listed on the tree that are not Kajukenbo are: CHA-3 Kenpo, Kenkabo, Ken-Ka Kung Fu, Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, George Pesare's Kempo, Universal Kempo, Chinese Kempo, Hawaiian Kenpo, Kajukenpo Pai Lum, Goshin-Jutsu Kenpo, White Tiger Kempo, Kenbo-aii, Ju Ka Kung Kenpo, and a few more I can't remember right now.

 

[Carol]

It's hard to picture the whole thing on the website because the hard copy of the document is about 3' X 5'.

Understood. I actually saved it to my hard drive so I could open it up in a photo editor and used the zoom function to see a bit better. But you are right, it is quite a challenge to take it all in.

Your seeing "Ed Parker" on there because William Chow is listed as Sijo Emperado's teacher, and several of Chow's black belts are listed under Chow. Obviously they are not Kajukenbo, except for Abe Kamahoahoa.
The instructors and systems of the other founders are listed above them, so you are seeing kung fu, jujitsu, judo, etc. And names like Henry Okazaki, Sig Kufferath.
Like I said, it's turned into a huge project because of all the groups who wanted inclusion on the tree. It has gone from a "Kajukenbo" tree to a "Emperado" tree.

Makes a lot of sense now.

Systems listed on the tree that are not Kajukenbo are: CHA-3 Kenpo, Kenkabo, Ken-Ka Kung Fu, Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, George Pesare's Kempo, Universal Kempo, Chinese Kempo, Hawaiian Kenpo, Kajukenpo Pai Lum, Goshin-Jutsu Kenpo, White Tiger Kempo, Kenbo-aii, Ju Ka Kung Kenpo, and a few more I can't remember right now.

Thanks so much for your help. That makes it a little less confusing, althouth I think my head is still spinning... :lol:

 

[Matt]

It's hard to picture the whole thing on the website because the hard copy of the document is about 3' X 5'. Your seeing "Ed Parker" on there because William Chow is listed as Sijo Emperado's teacher, and several of Chow's black belts are listed under Chow. Obviously they are not Kajukenbo, except for Abe Kamahoahoa.
The instructors and systems of the other founders are listed above them, so you are seeing kung fu, jujitsu, judo, etc. And names like Henry Okazaki, Sig Kufferath.
Like I said, it's turned into a huge project because of all the groups who wanted inclusion on the tree. It has gone from a "Kajukenbo" tree to a "Emperado" tree.
Systems listed on the tree that are not Kajukenbo are: CHA-3 Kenpo, Kenkabo, Ken-Ka Kung Fu, Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, George Pesare's Kempo, Universal Kempo, Chinese Kempo, Hawaiian Kenpo, Kajukenpo Pai Lum, Goshin-Jutsu Kenpo, White Tiger Kempo, Kenbo-aii, Ju Ka Kung Kenpo, and a few more I can't remember right now.

Isn't White Tiger Kempo a Villari offshoot? What's that doing there?

Matt

 

[Joe Shuras]

Okay, so if it's not honorary, how did you earn it? How much Kajukenbo did you study and when did you test for rank in Kajukenbo before getting the certification?

What's this, the Spanish Inquisition? lol. Please read my post again. I stated and you know this, the Kajukenbo cert. was discussed in depth before with you too, so you're being cute because you not only know the answers but it was discussed on a public forum before (MAP). You recently accused me of drudging up old posts to stir the pot, yet, this is your m.o. Dan and you've done it again but that's fine. Pot calling the kettle black? To be honest, and I hate to sound arrogant but I really don't have to answer any questions from you for who are you anyway? The way I was brought through the ranks, an underbelt like yourself was seen and not heard and this was not only in kempo/kenpo but in all arts. An instructor would be obligated to "pull back the reins" on a student, a brown belt, who copped an attitude in public of disrespect but that was then.... As "The Rock" says, "Know your role", but I will answer anyway.

For one thing, never said I studied Kajukenbo. Like you originally did, Dan, I took some information from the videos John Bishop had sent me. Never was tested in Kajukenbo BUT was floor tested for 7th by SGM. Pesare for 7th, also elevated to 8th by SGM. Pesare (no floor test), and I was also floor tested by Nick Cerio for a 6th in American Kenpo (KGS), shihan title (seperate of rank) and also a 3rd in the curriculum of NCK. I think those a pretty fair credentials. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of high dan ranks are not usually floor tested for, not only in the kenpo arts but in most others that I know of.

Here ya go, Dan:


The Controversy of Black Belt Degrees

There has been much controversy on black belt degree rank promotions. I was a history major in college and always was facinated with the subject, so I guess I later carried that into the martial arts. I tried to condense some of my research over the years and here's some excerpts. Although excerpts, none were taken out of context, I just wished to get to the 'meat & potatoes' of the information given. However, I provided links and information so that you may be able to see this information in it's entirety if you wish. I copied everything exactly the way it was written and included a couple of my own comments. Enjoy.........

The following information was excerpted from an article entiled: What is Rank? and can be found at http://www.russbo.com/seidokan/rank.htm.

"Even in the black belt ranks there has been an evolution. Funakoshi himself only held a fifth dan, and that was rather arbitrarily awarded in order for him to have a teaching level rank that would be comprehended by the Japan Martial Arts Commision, Nihon Butokukai. It is through politics and propaganda that the current 10th dan rank evolved. Even now, skill alone is only the prime factor up to 4th or 5th degree black belt levels. *NOTE: I, Prof. Shuras, also found something smiliar in the book Chinese Kenpo (Kung Fu) by Willaim D. Scott. Scott was a graduate student of Temple University in Ohio and studied Okiawan Kenpo Karate under Sensei Peter Becker and Master Goh. On page 7 of the 'Introduction' it stated black belt degrees 1st thru 4th are physically attainable and black belt degrees 5th to 8th are awarded for contributions to the art. I would then have to assume 9th was reserved for the Soke-dai (Inheritor-to-be) of the system and the 10th for the one and only Grandmaster of the system. The original article continues:

"Skill, while still a factor in ranking, is combined with politics and age from most promotions from 6th to 7th degree. Politics and age alone are generally the only factors from 8th to 10th degree. The highest-ranking Shotokan man in America before his death, Ozawa Shihan, received his 8th dan from the uncle of the Emperor of Japan, not from a karate board or organization. Now granted, it is a prestigious source of promotion, but there was no testing board or martial arts examination involved. It was based on Ozawa'a immense contribution to karate. and his longevity in the art. Professor Cerio received his Soke (founder) rank of 10th degree from a board of founders, the American Board of Soke. (This board is just one of many such organizations set up for the express purpose of granting rank recognition to advanced martial Artists, or those wish to proclaim new nad individual styles)." * NOTE: I, Prof. Shuras, must make a correction here. I don't believe it was ever called the American Board of Soke but I have seen it written over the years as the World Council of Sokes" or the World Soke Council".The article continues:

"Granted, all of these men needed to possess legitimate and tremendous skill and knowledge, but a promotion from 7th to 10th degree has less to do with that ability than with time and political recognition. Many, indeed, judan in America are self-proclaimed as such or else are elevated through time by their own students and peers and by their achievements rather than by any governing board or body. Such is less frequently the case in Asia where direct appointments are the norm. All of this is intended to put into perspective what rank is and what rank is not."

The following excerpts are taken from the article entitled: Ranking in the Dai Ni Gojuryu System which can be found at http://www.akbba.com/ingka/daini3a.html.

"Tukerii Sensei initally used only white, brown, and black belt ranking, if actual degrees existed, he never mentioned them. With the increasing popularity of karate in the U.S. following the mid 1960's and the influx of numerous commercial schools teaching karate, Sensei, with much encouragement from his students, began to increase the number of colored belts. Initially they were Gokyo-White Belt, Yonkyo-Green Belt, Sankyo-Brown Belt-Nikyu-Brown belt, Ikkyu-Brown Belt, and Black Belt grades of Shodan, Sandan, Yondan, and Godan.

Well, that's it in a nutshell about all this controversy of black belt degrees from three verfiable sources. I report, you decide.


Now Dan, as far as earning a Kajukenbo ranking, don't open up a can of worms, as what is happening in today's Kajukenbo. You, yourself, told me this in a phone conversation that John was not at all happy with some of the rank being issued these days and this was not about me at the time, we were discussing "others". Prof. Scott just recently at our get-together in Boston told me of a high Kajukenbo rank given to a Tang Soo Do black belt who knew nothing of Kajukenbo. So let's not go there, I'm not here to 'stir the pot'. Let it go man, it will do no one any good but I will finsh my answer to your questions....again

However, Prof. Scott recognized my rankings and recognized the historical link we have to Kajukenbo. He did not do this on his own, he spoke to Gm. Edmund Louis for his okay. He told me he also cleared it with Sijo Emperado. He told me he wanted to get Sijo's to sign it and he would have but at the time he was ill, he may have said he was in the hospital or just got out, can't really remember, wasn't that important at the time. He then took my certificate to a tournament in Hawaii and met with some seniors and they agreed to sign it, one of the signatures on it is from Professor Clarence Emperado, Sijo's stepson but let's face it, you won't take my word for it and that's why I said for you to get in touch with Professor Scott for any questions, I have nothing to hide.

Professor Jon Pagdilao also issued me what he calls a Recognition of Rank (7th dan) in Kenpo Karate BUT he would not do this unless he got a unanimous consent from his Board of Directors. I had joined Prof. Jaime Abregana's organization and Jon and Gerry were all connected through it. When I joined, Prof. Abregana and I talked several times and he asked me to send a bio and with the recommendation of Prof. Scott, he issued me a 7th dan Kenpo Karate and appointed me to a position. I previously also had a 7th in KGS personally from GGM. Gascon also. He awarded Kathy and I our teaching certificate, 7th dan KGS w/ auhorization to promote up to 6th dan, in person at John Levesque school in Rhode Island. KenpoJoe Rebelo witnessed this with many others as he too was presented with a cert. for his current rank. Levesque is a George Pesare black belt and fighter and was known for beating Hidy Ochia (TKO) in Rhode Island when Levesque was only a brown belt.

 

[Joe Shuras]

To the original question, Joe, is the KGS book still coming out? Will it contain the original material taught? This would be a great thing to have in anyones references. Is there a manual of techniques of the Original Method of Kajukenbo Mr. Bishop? This would be an excellent way to cross reference. You list the techniques required but are they written down for the public to see?
Jesse

Jesse, thank you for your support. To answer your question, Jim Spieghts of Rhode Island is assisting in this manuel with GMM. Gascon. In KGS, we delegate specific responsbilites. There have been some setbacks, not pertaining to the manuel or organization, personal, which forced us to postpone get-togethers. Hopefully, 2007 we can get back on track but get in touch with Jimmy for any updates. Thanks, Joe

 

[Joe Shuras]

I know the answer. My seniors in the art I train in do not answer to me for what they do or why. However, when someone claims expertise in something that I happen to know they are not an expert in I will bring it out.

As to the rank not being honorary, let me remind you of something Abraham Lincoln used to love to say. He would ask people this question: "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" When people would answer "Five." He'd give them a scathing look and reply, "Four! Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg."

Again, my friend, you probably haven't seen my post #246 in which I answered your questions and remember, don't say 'claim', I don't 'claim' the rank, I was 'awarded' it and it was 'approved', if that doesn't set well with you, who cares? I don't. You can lose sleep over it if you want, lol. I never laid 'claim' to be an expert in Kajukenbo. How much of an expert in Kajukenbo was Ed Parker? (John stated he studied two weeks in the 50's), yet, didn't he receive an 8th dan from Sijo Emperado? Was Emperado an expert in EPAK? Was he any ranking in EPAK? What gave him the right to do this? (by the way, I agree with Sijo on this, just making a point). Dan, you are opening up a can of worms and it's not going to hurt me..... This is not an uncommon practice and has been going on long before Joe Shuras received his.

 

[Joe Shuras]

Dan wrote this to me in post #213:

"So you figured that you would go a drudge out all of this just in case it had all blown over and people had put it behind them? Nothing like trying to stir the pot by digging out old posts that people had forgotten about eh?"

I say: See what I mean when I say hypocrisy? The pot calling the kettle black? Look at Dan's post #231 of the e-mail of the past SGM. Pesare. I think, by now, many of us know of the falling out that Mr. Pesare and Mr. Gascon had. I will not divulge what transpired between them. It's not my place, they are my seniors. Ask them. However, this is only one of many, many falling outs between instructor and students over a half of century. Chow & Mitose, Parker & Chow, Tracys & Parker, and beat goes on and on and on...... Just read "The Lost Interview" (Prof. Chow) that's become popular as of late. These things, unfortunately, happen. - Joe

ATTENTION MODERATORS: I RESPECTFULLY ASK FOR A WARNING HERE TO KEEP THIS FROM TURNING INTO A LIFE AND DEATH GRUDGE MATCH. IF YOU READ MY POSTS I AM TRYING TO MOVE ON WITH FRIENDLY AND KNOWLEDGABLE DISCUSSION AND JUST ABOUT EVERYONE HERE SEEMS TO BE DOING THE SAME-ALMOST. THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR ANYONE. THANK YOU.

 

[MJS]

Attention All Users:

There have already been a few in thread notes placed to keep the discussion at a respectful level and on topic. However, some of them seem to be going ignored. This is apparently a hot topic, but please keep the General Posting Rules in mind when posting. Also feel free to use the RTM (Report to Mod) feature, which is the little red triangle on every post, to report rude, off topic, harrassing, etc. posts. You can also use the ignore feature, which is found on everyones profile, to ignore users, whos posts you do not wish to read.

Before the thread gets locked, lets return to a polite, friendly discussion. Please consider this the final note on this issue.

Mike Slosek
MT Supermod

 

[Joe Shuras]

Thank you very much, Mike, I appreciate your intervention. I didn't know about the RTM feature, thank you. Respectfully-Prof. Joe

 

[Danjo]

What's this, the Spanish Inquisition? lol. Please read my post again. I stated and you know this, the Kajukenbo cert. was discussed in depth before with you too, so you're being cute because you not only know the answers but it was discussed on a public forum before (MAP). You recently accused me of drudging up old posts to stir the pot, yet, this is your m.o. Dan and you've done it again but that's fine. Pot calling the kettle black? To be honest, and I hate to sound arrogant but I really don't have to answer any questions from you for who are you anyway? The way I was brought through the ranks, an underbelt like yourself was seen and not heard and this was not only in kempo/kenpo but in all arts. An instructor would be obligated to "pull back the reins" on a student, a brown belt, who copped an attitude in public of disrespect but that was then.... As "The Rock" says, "Know your role", but I will answer anyway.

For one thing, never said I studied Kajukenbo. Like you originally did, Dan, I took some information from the videos John Bishop had sent me. Never was tested in Kajukenbo BUT was floor tested for 7th by SGM. Pesare for 7th, also elevated to 8th by SGM. Pesare (no floor test), and I was also floor tested by Nick Cerio for a 6th in American Kenpo (KGS), shihan title (seperate of rank) and also a 3rd in the curriculum of NCK. I think those a pretty fair credentials. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of high dan ranks are not usually floor tested for, not only in the kenpo arts but in most others that I know of.

Here ya go, Dan:


The Controversy of Black Belt Degrees

There has been much controversy on black belt degree rank promotions. I was a history major in college and always was facinated with the subject, so I guess I later carried that into the martial arts. I tried to condense some of my research over the years and here's some excerpts. Although excerpts, none were taken out of context, I just wished to get to the 'meat & potatoes' of the information given. However, I provided links and information so that you may be able to see this information in it's entirety if you wish. I copied everything exactly the way it was written and included a couple of my own comments. Enjoy.........

The following information was excerpted from an article entiled: What is Rank? and can be found at http://www.russbo.com/seidokan/rank.htm.

"Even in the black belt ranks there has been an evolution. Funakoshi himself only held a fifth dan, and that was rather arbitrarily awarded in order for him to have a teaching level rank that would be comprehended by the Japan Martial Arts Commision, Nihon Butokukai. It is through politics and propaganda that the current 10th dan rank evolved. Even now, skill alone is only the prime factor up to 4th or 5th degree black belt levels. *NOTE: I, Prof. Shuras, also found something smiliar in the book Chinese Kenpo (Kung Fu) by Willaim D. Scott. Scott was a graduate student of Temple University in Ohio and studied Okiawan Kenpo Karate under Sensei Peter Becker and Master Goh. On page 7 of the 'Introduction' it stated black belt degrees 1st thru 4th are physically attainable and black belt degrees 5th to 8th are awarded for contributions to the art. I would then have to assume 9th was reserved for the Soke-dai (Inheritor-to-be) of the system and the 10th for the one and only Grandmaster of the system. The original article continues:

"Skill, while still a factor in ranking, is combined with politics and age from most promotions from 6th to 7th degree. Politics and age alone are generally the only factors from 8th to 10th degree. The highest-ranking Shotokan man in America before his death, Ozawa Shihan, received his 8th dan from the uncle of the Emperor of Japan, not from a karate board or organization. Now granted, it is a prestigious source of promotion, but there was no testing board or martial arts examination involved. It was based on Ozawa'a immense contribution to karate. and his longevity in the art. Professor Cerio received his Soke (founder) rank of 10th degree from a board of founders, the American Board of Soke. (This board is just one of many such organizations set up for the express purpose of granting rank recognition to advanced martial Artists, or those wish to proclaim new nad individual styles)." * NOTE: I, Prof. Shuras, must make a correction here. I don't believe it was ever called the American Board of Soke but I have seen it written over the years as the World Council of Sokes" or the World Soke Council".The article continues:

"Granted, all of these men needed to possess legitimate and tremendous skill and knowledge, but a promotion from 7th to 10th degree has less to do with that ability than with time and political recognition. Many, indeed, judan in America are self-proclaimed as such or else are elevated through time by their own students and peers and by their achievements rather than by any governing board or body. Such is less frequently the case in Asia where direct appointments are the norm. All of this is intended to put into perspective what rank is and what rank is not."

The following excerpts are taken from the article entitled: Ranking in the Dai Ni Gojuryu System which can be found at http://www.akbba.com/ingka/daini3a.html.

"Tukerii Sensei initally used only white, brown, and black belt ranking, if actual degrees existed, he never mentioned them. With the increasing popularity of karate in the U.S. following the mid 1960's and the influx of numerous commercial schools teaching karate, Sensei, with much encouragement from his students, began to increase the number of colored belts. Initially they were Gokyo-White Belt, Yonkyo-Green Belt, Sankyo-Brown Belt-Nikyu-Brown belt, Ikkyu-Brown Belt, and Black Belt grades of Shodan, Sandan, Yondan, and Godan.

Well, that's it in a nutshell about all this controversy of black belt degrees from three verfiable sources. I report, you decide.


Now Dan, as far as earning a Kajukenbo ranking, don't open up a can of worms, as what is happening in today's Kajukenbo. You, yourself, told me this in a phone conversation that John was not at all happy with some of the rank being issued these days and this was not about me at the time, we were discussing "others". Prof. Scott just recently at our get-together in Boston told me of a high Kajukenbo rank given to a Tang Soo Do black belt who knew nothing of Kajukenbo. So let's not go there, I'm not here to 'stir the pot'. Let it go man, it will do no one any good but I will finsh my answer to your questions....again

However, Prof. Scott recognized my rankings and recognized the historical link we have to Kajukenbo. He did not do this on his own, he spoke to Gm. Edmund Louis for his okay. He told me he also cleared it with Sijo Emperado. He told me he wanted to get Sijo's to sign it and he would have but at the time he was ill, he may have said he was in the hospital or just got out, can't really remember, wasn't that important at the time. He then took my certificate to a tournament in Hawaii and met with some seniors and they agreed to sign it, one of the signatures on it is from Professor Clarence Emperado, Sijo's stepson but let's face it, you won't take my word for it and that's why I said for you to get in touch with Professor Scott for any questions, I have nothing to hide.

Professor Jon Pagdilao also issued me what he calls a Recognition of Rank (7th dan) in Kenpo Karate BUT he would not do this unless he got a unanimous consent from his Board of Directors. I had joined Prof. Jaime Abregana's organization and Jon and Gerry were all connected through it. When I joined, Prof. Abregana and I talked several times and he asked me to send a bio and with the recommendation of Prof. Scott, he issued me a 7th dan Kenpo Karate and appointed me to a position. I previously also had a 7th in KGS personally from GGM. Gascon also. He awarded Kathy and I our teaching certificate, 7th dan KGS w/ auhorization to promote up to 6th dan, in person at John Levesque school in Rhode Island. KenpoJoe Rebelo witnessed this with many others as he too was presented with a cert. for his current rank. Levesque is a George Pesare black belt and fighter and was known for beating Hidy Ochia (TKO) in Rhode Island when Levesque was only a brown belt.

Thanks for answering the question Joe spoken like a true senior in the arts. I find it interesting that you only throw out the "Who are you to question me?" stuff when it's YOU. Whatever.

I'd be glad to go to Bullshido and we can each post our emails to each other from over the last couple of years (I've got all of them) and see who's twisting what out here on the public forums. I think a lot of people would be surprised to see how good old "Professor Joe" comes off after that.

 

[RevIV]

Before the thread gets locked, lets return to a polite, friendly discussion. Please consider this the final note on this issue.

Mike Slosek
MT Supermod

Well i am heading to upstate NY for some training so i will end on.. Have a great weekend. hope all is well for you Mike. Joe, see you in a few weeks. Danjo, have a good weekend-train hard. Mr. Bishop i will check that tree later. Matt give me a call and hopefully see you the 24th.
In Peace
Jesse

 

[Joe Shuras]

Thanks for answering the question Joe spoken like a true senior in the arts. I find it interesting that you only throw out the "Who are you to question me?" stuff when it's YOU. Whatever.

I'd be glad to go to Bullshido and we can each post our emails to each other from over the last couple of years (I've got all of them) and see who's twisting what out here on the public forums. I think a lot of people would be surprised to see how good old "Professor Joe" comes off after that.

I will take it you didn't see the moderator's warning. I will abide by Mike's warning. No, Dan, it's not when it's only me....I strongly disagree but that's my opinion and your opinion. It's too bad if you feel that way but that's how I was brought up in the arts. I offer no apologies for the way I was taught. Dan, bear in mind, as Jesse stated, we all have changed opinions on history and so forth as facts come in and I'm sure we may change them again. We all get heated when we feel someone violates what we hold dear to us. As I pointed out before, students have disputes with instructors, hopefully some can make ammends, others go their entire lifetime, right to the grave, never speaking to each other.....sad. You and and I have had some very serious phone conversations, friendly, but serious. People have falling outs, we have, you and I, John and I. Funny, remember, it was me that directed you to John for instruction. I pride myself in being outspoken at times (I feel it's neccessary, when and where needed) and if I intentionally or unintentionally slight someone due to a misunderstanding on my part, I will be the first to apologize. I am only human. It's too bad things like this happen but they do happen.

Bullshido, the last time I was on there, no matter what Mike Rash and I posted, included e-mails and statements from Sonny Gas, it was all to no avail. No one really got anywhere, same thing on a few other threads there. Yes, a lot of swearing, really foul language (by all, me included), many people expressing strong opinions but not identifying themselves along with some that did which I respect. However, all in all, nothing was accomplished but my in-person meeting with an administrator from Bullshido, Samuel Browning. We met for hours and I was to confirm who he exactly was, by the same token, I felt only fair to bring information and background of myself which Mr. Browning can confirm. That was about the only good that came out of it in my opinion, he was a nice guy. A lot of wasted time and energy spent on the keyboards though.

Nothing ever gets settled on the net, in other words, when things get controversial, nothing seems to get really accomplished but aggravation on both sides. I'll tell you what and this is a friendly invitation, I mean that, no set up, no hidden motive or agenda, a good gesture. George Pesare is having his periodic Beach Camp in Rhode Island this year. It's usually in August but it was moved up to Labor Day week. I was asked to do a seminar along with many others that week but most important, he will hold is annual 'Best of the Best' tournament-9 disciplines in order to place in your division. If you like and you have the time and expense, you're invited to watch as my guest. If you wish to compete, I can get you an application but some like to check it out first. I'll introduce you to SGM. Pesare and you can ask him anything you like about the history. If you have time for a seminar or two, fine. This way you can experience how we do it in New England, lol. I know I had told you not to e-mail me again but if you wish further information on this, do so. I know it's bit of a distance but this is a sincere invitation if you can swing it, if not I understand - Joe

 

[Danjo]

A lot of wasted time and energy spent on the keyboards though.

Nothing ever gets settled on the net, in other words, when things get controversial, nothing seems to get really accomplished but aggravation on both sides.

Alright, I'll stop on my end.

 

[Joe Shuras]

Alright, I'll stop on my end.

Truce.


Back to a 'good' discussion. Peter T. e-mailed me a little while ago and asked how come some think David Kamalani was a student of Sonny Gas? He was a student of John Leoning. All I know, and again, it's just what I've read on the net, Kamalani was a student of Leoning and I think it said had a school in North Hollywood. It was also reported that he died in a car accident within a year of opening his school. Does anyone have any more on this man? - Joe

 

[Gufbal1982]

Isn't White Tiger Kempo a Villari offshoot? What's that doing there?

Matt

White Tiger Chin Na is Villari...

 

[Joe Shuras]

White Tiger Chin Na is Villari...

Yes, agreed, that's Fred Villari's and he does a helluva job with it. Dan sent me the Villari video series a while ago that included Chin Na and it was very, very impressive, everything, all his Kempo and I was especially impressed with his kicking ability, jump kicks, spin kicks, because I understand (from Nick Cerio) he had a back problem years ago and at the time of the filming, we figured he was like 59 years old, kudos to Mr. V. He gives a performance that stands tall with any of his peers of today. - Joe

 

[Mike Att]

There are a few White Tiger Kempo schools;

Rich Frecina's White Tiger Kempo, out on Long Island, which is basically the Villari system with some minor changes (at least that's what it was in the mid 90's when I was there). There is also Tom Bryan's White Tiger Kempo, which from what I have read is an eclectic mix of techniques. There is also Tom Saviano's White Tiger Kenpo, which is in the Ed Parker/John McSweeney lineage.

 

[Matt]

There are a few White Tiger Kempo schools;

Rich Frecina's White Tiger Kempo, out on Long Island, which is basically the Villari system with some minor changes (at least that's what it was in the mid 90's when I was there). There is also Tom Bryan's White Tiger Kempo, which from what I have read is an eclectic mix of techniques. There is also Tom Saviano's White Tiger Kenpo, which is in the Ed Parker/John McSweeney lineage.

Yep, I believe the 'White Tiger' on the Kajukenbo tree is from Rich Fescina. I guess he received his 8th from Sijo according to his website.

Matt