Erroneous Aikido, The Amazing Story of..

[theletch1]

My thoughts exactly, Yari. The Erroneous Aikido precepts that Jenna set forth so clearly in the OP would seem to belie the fact that aikido consists of more than huge flowing circles used to deflect/redirect attack after attack with no-one getting injured in the process. In a world where evading the first couple of attacks would leave your attacker standing back and saying "Ok, you've parried my attacks I give up" there'd be no need for any defense at all. The finish is something that many folks don't train enough and fewer understand.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Not strictly Aikido, but classical jujutsu had a concept called the "O-waza"( big/great/major technique) which, rather than concentrate only on one specific skillset, dealt with an attack with 4 consistent, specific steps

*initial block/parry/blend/defense of whatever kind

*Atemi--if it drops them, bonus, if not, their nervous system has something else to think about while you proceed with the real technique

*real technique( joint break, throw, other "manstopper" move)

*Finish them with atemi if they aren't finished already

Aikido being directly descended from a classical jujutsu ryu (Daito-ryu), I can see no reason why the "O-waza" concept would not be able to translate over.

 

[Boyd Ritchie]

Suenaka Sensei is in my opinion, following the teaching and spirit of his master O'Sensei more so than others I have seen and trained with. He says that if your Aikido is not street effective it is not Aikido. His book "complete aikido" is a great read and very insightful from an aikidoka that has been through hundreds of real fights.

 

[amir]

Not strictly Aikido, but classical jujutsu had a concept called the "O-waza"( big/great/major technique) which, rather than concentrate only on one specific skillset, dealt with an attack with 4 consistent, specific steps

*initial block/parry/blend/defense of whatever kind

*Atemi--if it drops them, bonus, if not, their nervous system has something else to think about while you proceed with the real technique

*real technique( joint break, throw, other "manstopper" move)

*Finish them with atemi if they aren't finished already

Aikido being directly descended from a classical jujutsu ryu (Daito-ryu), I can see no reason why the "O-waza" concept would not be able to translate over.

To my understanding and experience, most of the Korindo Aikido techniques are supposed to have the following steps:
* Blend with attacker movement while simultaneously redirecting the attacker and creating Kuzushi (in balance), utilize Atemi if needed to create additional Kuzushi and create a longer opening. At the end of this stage, one should be in a position to apply some techniques, with the attacker attached to him and imbalanced.
* perform a technique, or change due to attacker reactions (the latter implies he was not really imbalanced). If a technique was performed, the attacker should be locked \ thrown \ with broken limbs or some combination.
* If necessary - finalize the situation with control over the ground (optional secondary break) or finishing strike. Note, from my understanding, such an act might be extremely illegal in most countries these days.


For most situations, techniques and variations, the first stages should not take more then one step and a twist, and may even take less movement on the Tori side.




However, as I pointed in earlier post, While this is a logical concept, real situations may call for other solutions (as was in the case of the evasion only from a neighbor in frenzy).


Amir

 

[teekin]

Jenna my dear, you know I wouldn't lie to you so I will say that my lessons in Aikido were abysmal. OMG. I so so so wanted to do the katana work but could not, would not, keep throwing myself to the mat. The brown belt I was working with could not execute wahtever it was that she was doing such that it produced any effect other that me needing to take a step or two to change my center of gravity. To show me what the drill was I had to throw myself. In all the drill there were sufficient openings that I could have swept her, struck her, kicked her, choked her or thrown her with a judo move. I could have broken her grip and gotten my own lock or trapped her hand/arm during the throw and taken her arm into a new lock/break.
Now this girl is a brown with 6 years training and has 4" and 30lbs on me. I have aggression, maybe denser muscle, better/ stricter teachers, more aggressive training partners and insane pain tollerance. But she should by brown have sufficient technique to NOT require me to throw myself! This girl has the Illusion ( I wish I could make this all sparkley) that she is safe on the street. What is she going to do when some banger won't throw himself when she applies a wrist lock? Bloody hell, I'd much rather she know how to throw a decent chopping low kick or side kick to the knee. Maybe know what a carriage block is? Or how to execute a hip throw if someone grabs you from behind, straight standing armbar? Anything that gives her a prayer, or doesn't lie to her. That's my biggest beef Jenna, women are being sold lies and are going to pay. And pay and pay and pay...................
lori

 

[Jenna]

Oh thank you all for your discussion points.. I am very grateful and have enjoyed reading thank you! There are a lot of valid points here! I would just add that I would not apply the Erroneous Aikido label to any particular style of Aikido. Rather I would apply it to the schools of Aikido that have veered significantly from the original Way of the art. I am not referring to how they apply that Way, what irks me most are these two things

1. The dilution of efficiency. I see some frankly ridiculous inefficiency - the high and the wide, the misinterpretation of circular as BIG, and the running around everywhere - that, as contrasted with the efficient [big only WHEN big is required], the directed [you WILL move where I put you], and that done with intent [this is not a game and we will NOT run around here all day playing dodge].

2. The overemphasis on "spirituality". And do not misunderstand, I would never ever seek to deny anyone a system of belief, and I personally adhere to principles of non-violence as far as I can, yet too many Aikido acquaintances of mine have again imo translated the idea non-violence into a horrible kind of effete, ponytailed softness and stand-offishness - this as contrasted to the DIRECT ENGAGEMENT of the opponent, that the opponent knows there and then that WE ARE NOT PLAYING pacifist and the intent is ever present to put them down and make them comply.

OK so I do not want to rant, though it is quite nice actually having a little rant haha.. Yes actually I did just want to rant. I feel better now..

And Lori yes you are correct, the practice of Erroneous Aikido [and I would hazard that there are Erroneous forms of most MA] leave the practitioners wanting when **** happens.. And yes I know because I was that person.

Thank you
Janna x

 

[Xue Sheng]

And Lori yes you are correct, the practice of Erroneous Aikido [and I would hazard that there are Erroneous forms of most MA] leave the practitioners wanting when **** happens.

Exactly, and sadly this occurs more time and in more styles than most are willing to admit

 

[Yari]

Exactly, and sadly this occurs more time and in more styles than most are willing to admit

I do aagree, and mostly it's because people don't want to see "reality" in the eye...

/Yari

 

[Telfer]

Hello People, Pardon my ignorance...I'm new here and I don't practice Aikido, but I find this thread very interesting on two points.

1. Strength.
2. Compliance.

Is it true that most Aikido schools do not REQUIRE a well above average level of physical strength in their students, particularly of the forearms and abs?

The compliance that everyone complains about...is this entirely about speed and retraction? A fast strike that is instantly retracted would be extremely difficult to grab...as you see in almost all demonstrations.

 

[morph4me]

Hello People, Pardon my ignorance...I'm new here and I don't practice Aikido, but I find this thread very interesting on two points.

1. Strength.
2. Compliance.

Is it true that most Aikido schools do not REQUIRE a well above average level of physical strength in their students, particularly of the forearms and abs?

The compliance that everyone complains about...is this entirely about speed and retraction? A fast strike that is instantly retracted would be extremely difficult to grab...as you see in almost all demonstrations.

Aikido doesn't require above average strenth because the techniques are based on principles of structure and balance, and how to use them to your advantage and your opponents disadvantage. When a technique is done properly you find yourself in a bad position without really understanding how you got there.

Compliance is a different situation, many aikido schools have uke's that fall down because they're"supposed to" or nage's that expect you to fall down or tap out because that's what's "supposed to" happen. In the better schools compliance isn't really an issue because if nage doesn't do the technique properly uke either stands their or nails them. I've trained with both groups, and I prefer the people that stand there and slap me when I screw up a technique, because I learn more from them.

 

[Jenna]

morph4me has answered very well.. A++ Hope that is all clear to you?? Say if it is unclear, yes?

I would only add that strength in the forearms for an aikidoka, while not requisite will help in the long run to sustain many Aikido techniques. And but the techniques themselves in no way rely upon strength rather they utilise principles of impulse and momentum to redirect the motion of the opponent, and joint manipulation to lock them into the position you require. As for the abs? They are good if you live near a beach I guess Actually, core strength is important though that would also include leg muscles, obliques, abs and back. Yet, no, not in a "beach body" way at all

I am not sure that retraction of strikes is common practice in any MA? Though I could be wrong?? I think WC / KF chain punching is an exception maybe? And but what happens in Aikido is that your opponent, through correctly executed technique will [or should] MAKE you move. If you move BEFORE you absolutely have to, then you are being compliant, which is bad practice. These are the lazy practitioners of Erroneous Aikido that "go with the flow" in a BAD way. Here nobody is served when the two training partners move as though touched by gentle ghosts. This to me is almost disrespectful to the whole idea of Aikido, of training and of MA! I would widen that to encompass all martial artists that practice with that mindset, though I would not digress!!

However, much of this apparent laziness may come from your personal experience, having had a technique done on you many times before, perhaps over many years of practice, you know ahead of time that, say, your shoulder will be dislocated if you do not sink down. Thus you move too soon, before you have to. So, although compliance in many cases is simple lazy and bad training, often it is actually a form of self-preservation [kind of like hitting the break-board softly so as not to hurt your knucks rather than following right through and snapping it]. However, that said, this halfhearted way of training also devalues the training, irrespective of what level those training have reached. Practitioners in this case might as well dance with each other, or go outside for a smoke!

To prove that the Aikido works, nobody moves until they cannot do anything BUT move, then nage is aware of the level of pressure that needs to be applied for his technique to work and uke is aware of his own tolerances. That is the only way to do Aikido, anything else is just flinching and ballet.

Sorry if this sounds a bit ranty.. anyone else want to rant. About anything? I will not feel so bad then haha.. I mean, have you seen the price of DVDs lately?
Jenna x

 

[K-man]

However, much of this apparent laziness may come from your personal experience, having had a technique done on you many times before, perhaps over many years of practice, you know ahead of time that, say, your shoulder will be dislocated if you do not sink down. Thus you move too soon, before you have to. So, although compliance in many cases is simple lazy and bad training, often it is actually a form of self-preservation [kind of like hitting the break-board softly so as not to hurt your knucks rather than following right through and snapping it]. However, that said, this halfhearted way of training also devalues the training, irrespective of what level those training have reached. Practitioners in this case might as well dance with each other, or go outside for a smoke!

Shame on you Jenna! Surely you know smoking is bad for your health. If all practitioners of 'erroneous aikido' did what you suggest we would end up with either a population explosion or fog like you see in China.

 

[Yari]

....... I mean, have you seen the price of DVDs lately?
Jenna x

No.... who buy's DVD's?


;-)
/Yari

 

[Jenna]

@K-man.. depends what they are smoking I guess. Always wondered why those Aikido ppl were so chilled? Long as they do not inhale, as the presidents and politicians say Eeeeeasy man.. haha..

@Yari.. now I cannot think what you mean dear Yari.. unless of course you refer to the quite legally downloading torrents of.. uh, I mean lots of good family movies off iTunes. Yes, however much DVDs are, I am sure they are quite worth every penny haha..

 

[amir]

Is it true that most Aikido schools do not REQUIRE a well above average level of physical strength in their students, particularly of the forearms and abs?

This is true , because only minimal strength is required from your muscles to perform a technique. A basic idea in most M.A. I know of is concentrating the entire body structure and muscles of the Tori (technique Executioner in Japanese) on a small part of the Uke (technique recipient in Japanese). This is true not only for Aikido, but for most M.A. I know of.
Aikido does not have unique technique. All of the Aikido techniques have many variations in many Ju-Jutsu styles. In all of those, this same concept applies.

Beware, the above does not mean Aikido does not require any force at all. You must have some force to hold on to Uke.

Also, the above does not mean that having force is a disadvantage in applying Aikido in a real situation (some make this mistake) - you could use excess force to cover a mistake, and apply a technique despite it. This is one reason people are discouraged from using force while training and learning - at that point, one wishes to uncover his mistakes and learn from them.

The compliance that everyone complains about...is this entirely about speed and retraction? A fast strike that is instantly retracted would be extremely difficult to grab...as you see in almost all demonstrations.

No, this is not an issue. Anyone trying to grab a fast strike is making a stupid mistake. If one chooses to relate to the strike and not avoid it altogether, the
strike should be intercepted/controlled/diverted and only then one may be able to catch the hand or arm.
If I were to connect to the striking hand you would find retraction is not as easy as it normally is, and you would already be unbalanced. You could still retract the hand, but as you do this, I would get closer to you and continue the retraction itself to some other technique, against that arm or against the head or body that might have been opened during the retraction.
Again, non of the above is unique to Aikido, I have seen high level Karateka teach exactly the same things and concepts.


I may later write about Uke compliance.

Amir

 

[Jenna]

Beware, the above does not mean Aikido does not require any force at all. You must have some force to hold on to Uke.

Also, the above does not mean that having force is a disadvantage in applying Aikido in a real situation (some make this mistake) - you could use excess force to cover a mistake, and apply a technique despite it. This is one reason people are discouraged from using force while training and learning - at that point, one wishes to uncover his mistakes and learn from them.

I think the use of force in any Aikido technique is bad practice. If someone is forcing at all, then something within their execution of the tech needs to be looked at. Can be anything from the ground up: their stance / balance to front and rear, their starting position before engagement, the mechanics of their drive from the core, the contact points for the technique and the application of torque..

There are many factors that determine why an aikidoka would force something, though there is absolutely an inherent problem if they are. It is not to be condoned nor excused and but rather corrected!

Using force to cover a mistake is one of those things that happens.. that is fair enough.. And but better to stop the technique midway and address the issues rather than continuing with it. Nothing is gained by that. Two obvious reasons to eliminate use of force.. First, in the dojo, forcing can result in ligament and tendon damage either in you or your partner. And but secondly, if your opponent in a real-life situation knows the first thing of Aikido or simple dynamics then your forcing may be a direct cause of your own defeat.

 

[amir]

I am not sure that retraction of strikes is common practice in any MA? Though I could be wrong?? I think WC / KF chain punching is an exception maybe? And but what happens in Aikido is that your opponent, through correctly executed technique will [or should] MAKE you move. If you move BEFORE you absolutely have to, then you are being compliant, which is bad practice. These are the lazy practitioners of Erroneous Aikido that "go with the flow" in a BAD way. Here nobody is served when the two training partners move as though touched by gentle ghosts. This to me is almost disrespectful to the whole idea of Aikido, of training and of MA! I would widen that to encompass all martial artists that practice with that mindset, though I would not digress!!

However, much of this apparent laziness may come from your personal experience, having had a technique done on you many times before, perhaps over many years of practice, you know ahead of time that, say, your shoulder will be dislocated if you do not sink down. Thus you move too soon, before you have to. So, although compliance in many cases is simple lazy and bad training, often it is actually a form of self-preservation [kind of like hitting the break-board softly so as not to hurt your knucks rather than following right through and snapping it]. However, that said, this halfhearted way of training also devalues the training, irrespective of what level those training have reached. Practitioners in this case might as well dance with each other, or go outside for a smoke!

To prove that the Aikido works, nobody moves until they cannot do anything BUT move, then nage is aware of the level of pressure that needs to be applied for his technique to work and uke is aware of his own tolerances. That is the only way to do Aikido, anything else is just flinching and ballet.

Jenna x

Jenna

Reading your previous posts and agreeing with them, I think these suggestions come with great intent, but you miss the correct golden pass and get to the other extreme. I disagree the way you described Uke behavior (and perhaps the problem is in the description) for multiple reasons, all of which come down to two points: being a good Uke is a difficult thing, and one is learning as Uke too. A short list explaining more about this:

1. Not moving unless you have to is dangerous. Some locks could cause some damage during the time it takes one to feel the pain and start moving.
2. Not moving unless you have to is simply wrong. In this way Uke is learning to stay in disadvantageous situations. In the same instant Tori is learning techniques in non-realistic situations.
3. Learning this way, some technique could not happen - some techniques include mid-steps in which Tori uses Uke response to his being unbalanced and/or in a disadvantageous situation.
4. Being Uke one learns how to react to a situation. Ukeshould really learn to be "soft" - sensitive to the situation and adapting responsively. In some Aikido styles which have no sparring (not Korindo which I learn) this is the only opportunity Uke has.
5. (Continues 4) If Uke is not used to moving with the power he feels, he can not counter effectively. In fact, if Tori does not learn this, his techniques will always be late and in-effective, and the best learning of this is done as Uke.



Amir

 

[Jenna]

Jenna

Reading your previous posts and agreeing with them, I think these suggestions come with great intent, but you miss the correct golden pass and get to the other extreme. I disagree the way you described Uke behavior (and perhaps the problem is in the description) for multiple reasons, all of which come down to two points: being a good Uke is a difficult thing, and one is learning as Uke too. A short list explaining more about this:

1. Not moving unless you have to is dangerous. Some locks could cause some damage during the time it takes one to feel the pain and start moving.
2. Not moving unless you have to is simply wrong. In this way Uke is learning to stay in disadvantageous situations. In the same instant Tori is learning techniques in non-realistic situations.
3. Learning this way, some technique could not happen - some techniques include mid-steps in which Tori uses Uke response to his being unbalanced and/or in a disadvantageous situation.
4. Being Uke one learns how to react to a situation. Ukeshould really learn to be "soft" - sensitive to the situation and adapting responsively. In some Aikido styles which have no sparring (not Korindo which I learn) this is the only opportunity Uke has.
5. (Continues 4) If Uke is not used to moving with the power he feels, he can not counter effectively. In fact, if Tori does not learn this, his techniques will always be late and in-effective, and the best learning of this is done as Uke.



Amir

Well yes and no Amir

for your point # 1. I do not agree, the important factor you have omitted here is speed. When beginning in the art, each technique should be completed at a very slow rate that sinuous tension can be felt before it is moved upon by both uke and tori. Again, nothing should be forced, yet nobody moves unless their physiology makes them move. To do otherwise is to learn nothing, neither as uke nor tori. When practitioners become more adept, those reflexes become the more efficient and necessarily quicker thus the technique is completed at a rate more akin to real life. The situation you describe is more likely to occur if partners are either a. mismatched in their level of proficiency or b. forcing the technique as described above.. in either case yes, granted damage may very well be sustained so I agree with you on that part.

for your point #2 I do not quite follow this logic forgive me.. I am referring specifically to practice of singular technique wherein it is important that neither partner [and that includes tori] move until they ARE moved. However if you are referring to randori type practice then yes standing static would be foolish, that is a given yes..

Agree with your point #3

for your point #4 well I think it depends here on what kind of training one does in one's Aikido and which kind of benefit is sought. Yes, for uke to be [I would not use your word soft, rather, receptive or even absorbing] for uke to be this way is best for their learning, granted. Yet this is not a situation which has a parallel in reality where the opponent will resist you with 100% effort. In which case, if you do not MAKE him move, he will not move, you may end up on your back and lest you are adept at your BJJ too then that is not so good. So if you are practicing pure technique in a dojo void then yes receptive or absorbing uke.. else [and I know not many aikidoka practice real life situations - we were removed for doing this] and but for real life, hard, unreceptive, uncompliant, non-absorbing uke is requisite. So yes and no here.. depends on what you are trying to get from your training [or which role you are acting].

Not wanting to kick up dust or nothing.. we is all friends here haha.. think you just want to argue w/me that is ok Jennax

 

[morph4me]

Jenna

Reading your previous posts and agreeing with them, I think these suggestions come with great intent, but you miss the correct golden pass and get to the other extreme. I disagree the way you described Uke behavior (and perhaps the problem is in the description) for multiple reasons, all of which come down to two points: being a good Uke is a difficult thing, and one is learning as Uke too. A short list explaining more about this:

1. Not moving unless you have to is dangerous. Some locks could cause some damage during the time it takes one to feel the pain and start moving.
2. Not moving unless you have to is simply wrong. In this way Uke is learning to stay in disadvantageous situations. In the same instant Tori is learning techniques in non-realistic situations.
3. Learning this way, some technique could not happen - some techniques include mid-steps in which Tori uses Uke response to his being unbalanced and/or in a disadvantageous situation.
4. Being Uke one learns how to react to a situation. Ukeshould really learn to be "soft" - sensitive to the situation and adapting responsively. In some Aikido styles which have no sparring (not Korindo which I learn) this is the only opportunity Uke has.
5. (Continues 4) If Uke is not used to moving with the power he feels, he can not counter effectively. In fact, if Tori does not learn this, his techniques will always be late and in-effective, and the best learning of this is done as Uke.


Amir

I'd like to follow Jenna's example and respond to each point.

1. I agree to a point, but I dobn't think it's really an issue. When first learning the technique is put on slowly to avoid damage, at this point uke shouldn't move until tori moves him. When you get better and the attacks come faster, Tori is moving sooner so uke's attack doesn't stop, so his balance is compromised and he has to move to maintain the impetus of the attack and he walks into the lock.

2. Not moving unless you have to doesn't mean that you stand there and wait until you're hit until you move, it means moving to blend with or avoid an attack. It means moving when it's appropriate to do so, not too late, but not too soon either.

3. This is only an issue if you start from a static position, and you don't unbalance uke so he has to move to maintain structural integrity.

4 & 5. I agree with most of this, but I think it works the other way. What happens to uke is a direct response to what tori does. If tori gives uke something to fight against, then uke will resist and the technique will be ineffective. On the other hand, if tori remains soft and uke can't find anything to resist, nothing to fight against, he is sucked into the technique because of his own momentum and to his detriment.

 

[Yari]

Hi

There is one thing I though about, the part that uke learns how to move compared to what tori does.

This is normal human behavior...nobody wants to stand in harms way. But isn't this making uke move in a way that non-uke's would move? And isn't it going to create a stylistisk way of moving that isn't rooted in "reality".

/Yari