Enough experience to teach? Yea or nay?

[jobo]

I appreciate the time you took to respond to these posts but I must say I am a bit surprised that you feel a 40 hour course is sufficient to hang up a sign and teach other people SD in a setting like the YMCA. As a person who has trained their entire life to accumulate the knowledge you have in teaching your style it seems like you wasted your time as a 40 hour course would essentially give you the same qualifications to teach others as well as you do.

There are probably plenty of students that do not care about who certifies the instructor. Even if they do care but cannot understand how to evaluate the certification, they may still join the classes and when they have spent a few years to learn more about the MA I am sure they will be very happy to realize that they too are just as qualified to teach a similar class after they spend 40 hours of time on the floor.

If I understand you correctly, what is the point of dedicating your life to learn a MA if you can learn everything you need to know to teach others SD in a 40 hour course ? What would be the point of spending another minute on training after you completed the 40 hour course ? After you learned everything there is to learn in the 40 hour course, what is the point of staying with this instructor ? Where will they get new material and who will vet the material to make sure it is appropriate for the students being taught ?

Last night I took a free kickboxing class with two of my daughters. The 'trainer' seemed to be a guy that took a course on how to be a kickboxing 'trainer'. I am sure he is a very nice guy and looks physically fit but I found his comments on how to do the work out quite 'interesting'. I was especially interested on how he was teaching me to punch, that I wasn't getting my body into it but I should continue to try but with less power . He was trying to explain that I wasn't doing the correct movement for the workout but it came across as very unrealistic and contrived to fit the exercise.

Hey what do I know ? I'm 52 and after doing a 53 minute workout I lost 837 calories and kept my heart rate up to 86%. I spent 1:35 in the blue zone, 32 sec in the green zone, 12:44 in the yellow zone, 15:55 in the orange zone and 22:16 in the red zone. Is that good ? No idea, no one thought to explain it to me at the end. Did I sweat and have a good time with my daughters ? Yes I did to both. Did I learn anything about kickboxing ? I learned that I do not punch correctly when I do hooks to the body and I do not block correctly .

I think his point was if you know the correct movements, you only need 40 hours to learn how to teach those movements, it could of course be a lot, lit less.

its arguable if you need 40 hours to learn the movements to be honest, depending what movements we are talking about, or even if you have to able able to do them, at all apart from being able to demonstrate them, or have someone else to denonstraihht them. theres only one measure of if a self defence course is good and that is you become more effective at self defence.

theres no guarantee at all, that some old fat bloke with a life time of experience is any better at teaching you self defence than a young fit bloke with a couple of hundred hours under his belt

 

[Yokozuna514]

If you are in the military much easier said than done, we get a wide range of experience in different styles but rarely the opportunity to stay for many years in one place.


The OP did say 'fellow airmen' btw, in my mind you can never go wrong if you are in the air force ( preferably the RAF) but the American one is next best. Seriously though military courses in anything tend to be more intense that civvie ones so I imagine his qualification in a military martial art is going to be good whatever the grade says on paper. Instructing is encouraged too as training for further ranks ( military) so I'm pretty sure his instructing skills will be good, especially if he's been teaching colleagues, military people will soon tell him if he's pants.

I have a lot of respect for the folks that are in the armed services. The SD training is generally taught with the idea that life and death is on the line. Military folks still put their pants on one leg a time though so what I am saying is that I am reluctant to agree that ANY 40 hour or similar type of course will give ANYONE sufficient time in training to deal with people (kids and adults) that are just learning SD for the first time. Maybe it can and there are probably examples of people that CAN do it well but I think that is more the exception than the rule. I do not believe that any 40 hour course can replace years of dedication to learn a MA with any proficiency.

 

[wab25]

If I understand you correctly, what is the point of dedicating your life to learn a MA if you can learn everything you need to know to teach others SD in a 40 hour course ? What would be the point of spending another minute on training after you completed the 40 hour course ? After you learned everything there is to learn in the 40 hour course, what is the point of staying with this instructor ? Where will they get new material and who will vet the material to make sure it is appropriate for the students being taught ?

So, I guess your point is that he should not teach, until he trains in Kyokushin karate, and gains an instructor certificate for Kyokushin karate?

What it would take for me to say he was certified is: We spent time training together so I could observe his technique in Kyokushin Karate. I would witness him take the test and see how he performed. Have the test administered by a high ranking black belt of our organization. Under those conditions I can say he is certified in Kyokushin karate.

Should all MA instructors quit teaching, until they attain such a certificate in Kyokushin karate or is this just for him?

 

[wab25]

I have a lot of respect for the folks that are in the armed services. The SD training is generally taught with the idea that life and death is on the line. Military folks still put their pants on one leg a time though so what I am saying is that I am reluctant to agree that ANY 40 hour or similar type of course will give ANYONE sufficient time in training to deal with people (kids and adults) that are just learning SD for the first time. Maybe it can and there are probably examples of people that CAN do it well but I think that is more the exception than the rule. I do not believe that any 40 hour course can replace years of dedication to learn a MA with any proficiency.

Thats a 40 hour course on top of the 13+ years he has in actual martial arts training... Unless you only count his Kyokushin karate time... Then its just the 40 hour course.

 

[Yokozuna514]

@Yokozuna514 , I am not sure you fully read the OP's post. He has had more than enough experience to benefit from a 40 course much more than someone with zero experience. No where in his post was he belittling people who have put years and decades into their training. Much the opposite the way I read the post. It sounds more concerned with credibility and NOT stepping on the toes of people more experience.

Yes, I did read all the other experience that was listed. I agree that he was not belittling people that have put years and decades into their training. He asked if the training he had was 'enough' especially if he is not a black belt in any style. I simply said that he should perhaps finish a certification in any style so that he is able to say that he has been certified by someone other than himself that he has completed a course. If people feel that the MACP course is sufficient and that he can hang a shingle stating that is what he is teaching so be it. I applaud him for have the desire to do but I would always favour more 'time in' training than not. I think that is a more credible approach than listing the qualifications as they are but that might just be me.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I think his point was if you know the correct movements, you only need 40 hours to learn how to teach those movements, it could of course be a lot, lit less.

its arguable if you need 40 hours to learn the movements to be honest, depending what movements we are talking about, or even if you have to able able to do them, at all apart from being able to demonstrate them, or have someone else to denonstraihht them. theres only one measure of if a self defence course is good and that is you become more effective at self defence.

theres no guarantee at all, that some old fat bloke with a life time of experience is any better at teaching you self defence than a young fit bloke with a couple of hundred hours under his belt

True but all things being equal, more experience in training and practicing what you preach should be better than less.

 

[Yokozuna514]

So, I guess your point is that he should not teach, until he trains in Kyokushin karate, and gains an instructor certificate for Kyokushin karate?


Should all MA instructors quit teaching, until they attain such a certificate in Kyokushin karate or is this just for him?

That is not at all what I said.

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

Thats a 40 hour course on top of the 13+ years he has in actual martial arts training... Unless you only count his Kyokushin karate time... Then its just the 40 hour course.

To be clear, I don't have 13+ years, it's actually closer to 9. The reason being is that I generally train in two complementary martial arts at a time. For example, in Tucson it was Kenpo and Aikido, in Clovis it was BJJ and Shorin-Ryu. Hope that clears my amount of experience up a bit!

 

[jobo]

True but all things being equal, more experience in training and practicing what you preach should be better than less.

well there not equal, ones old and fat and the other isn't, should ? on what are you basing that assumption, you clearly dont get better at most things as you get older, but we are talking about an ability to teach techniques, the abilities of the teacher are not the most crucial thing, except there ability to teach

 

[Yokozuna514]

Thats a 40 hour course on top of the 13+ years he has in actual martial arts training... Unless you only count his Kyokushin karate time... Then its just the 40 hour course.

If I hit some nerve of yours it was purely accidental. If you think that ANY 40 hour course is enough to teach SD, I suppose you have the right to do so. I'm sure your ideas of training will appeal to a segment of the population and they will be happy with what they are learning.

I am not trying to assume too much. I do not know the OP and have not trained with the OP. I have no idea if he will or will not be good at teaching SD at the YMCA but based on what I read of his training credentials, it would not pull me to take his course because I am a student that prefers to learn from people that have dedicated their life to their craft. When I research and compare schools I look at things like years of time in training, courses completed, organizations that they are part of and who created the curriculum. Why is that so difficult to understand ?

 

[Tez3]

To be clear, I don't have 13+ years, it's actually closer to 9. The reason being is that I generally train in two complementary martial arts at a time. For example, in Tucson it was Kenpo and Aikido, in Clovis it was BJJ and Shorin-Ryu. Hope that clears my amount of experience up a bit!

I don't suppose you could get posted to the UK anytime soon?

Other people's opinions ( and that's what they are after all) are all very well, but how do you feel about your teaching? If you feel you have enough experience and can see the results from your students, then go for it, do what you think you should do. For some here you wouldn't have enough experience if you been doing a single art for donkey's years, for other they will encourage you all the one. Go with your gut and enjoy.

 

[Yokozuna514]

well there not equal, ones old and fat and the other isn't, should ? on what are you basing that assumption, you clearly dont get better at most things as you get older, but we are talking about an ability to teach techniques, the abilities of the teacher are not the most crucial thing, except there ability to teach

I base the assumption on the premise that the more you do something the better you should be at it. Hopefully the more you teach the better you become at teaching. Seems to make sense to me.......

 

[Tez3]

f you think that ANY 40 hour course is enough to teach SD,

Course in the military nearly always carry many more hours practice.

I am a student that prefers to learn from people that have dedicated their life to their craft.

So.…. because he's in the military and moves around he's disqualified from your list of suitable instructors. Good job you didn't meet my instructor, he had far more styles under his belt as it were.

Why is that so difficult to understand ?

It's not at all difficult but you are sounding somewhat condescending. Not everyone has the luxury of taking one style and devoting their life to it, they are busy doing things to enable you to be able to stay in that one style for all of your life.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Course in the military nearly always carry many more hours practice.




So.…. because he's in the military and moves around he's disqualified from your list of suitable instructors. Good job you didn't meet my instructor, he had far more styles under his belt as it were.




It's not at all difficult but you are sounding somewhat condescending. Not everyone has the luxury of taking one style and devoting their life to it, they are busy doing things to enable you to be able to stay in that one style for all of your life.

Oh boy, some days it doesn't pay to get out of bed . I think a lot of people are reading more into what I am saying than what I am actually saying. If I am coming off as being condescending because I would prefer to spend my time, energy and money on an instructor that has dedicated his life to one craft that is not my intention. That is simply my preference and I would encourage anyone looking for advice on how to pick a school or instructor to do the same. Does that mean that everyone that does follows a different path should be tossed in the rubbish bin ? No, but they wouldn't necessarily get an endorsement from me.

In the end, people should take an hour out of their day and take a free trial. If they are happy with the trial, then join. If they are not, then don't. I think there is a lot more to teaching than qualifications, certifications and experience but I also think having those things would not hurt. In fact, I think it would only benefit the students more but there are no guarantees.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I appreciate the time you took to respond to these posts but I must say I am a bit surprised that you feel a 40 hour course is sufficient to hang up a sign and teach other people SD in a setting like the YMCA. As a person who has trained their entire life to accumulate the knowledge you have in teaching your style it seems like you wasted your time as a 40 hour course would essentially give you the same qualifications to teach others as well as you do.

There are probably plenty of students that do not care about who certifies the instructor. Even if they do care but cannot understand how to evaluate the certification, they may still join the classes and when they have spent a few years to learn more about the MA I am sure they will be very happy to realize that they too are just as qualified to teach a similar class after they spend 40 hours of time on the floor.

If I understand you correctly, what is the point of dedicating your life to learn a MA if you can learn everything you need to know to teach others SD in a 40 hour course ? What would be the point of spending another minute on training after you completed the 40 hour course ? After you learned everything there is to learn in the 40 hour course, what is the point of staying with this instructor ? Where will they get new material and who will vet the material to make sure it is appropriate for the students being taught ?

Last night I took a free kickboxing class with two of my daughters. The 'trainer' seemed to be a guy that took a course on how to be a kickboxing 'trainer'. I am sure he is a very nice guy and looks physically fit but I found his comments on how to do the work out quite 'interesting'. I was especially interested on how he was teaching me to punch, that I wasn't getting my body into it but I should continue to try but with less power . He was trying to explain that I wasn't doing the correct movement for the workout but it came across as very unrealistic and contrived to fit the exercise.

Hey what do I know ? I'm 52 and after doing a 53 minute workout I lost 837 calories and kept my heart rate up to 86%. I spent 1:35 in the blue zone, 32 sec in the green zone, 12:44 in the yellow zone, 15:55 in the orange zone and 22:16 in the red zone. Is that good ? No idea, no one thought to explain it to me at the end. Did I sweat and have a good time with my daughters ? Yes I did to both. Did I learn anything about kickboxing ? I learned that I do not punch correctly when I do hooks to the body and I do not block correctly .

You've missed my point. Someone with knowledge of the techniques could be trained to teach them in 40 hours. 40 hours to learn AND learn to teach, not so much. My understanding is that the 40-hour course would have come after he'd learned the techniques being taught. And we're talking about a more compact approach than NGA. I don't think NGA is a teachable base if you don't have at least 7 years in it. I could teach someone a usable skill set (not bothering much with the aiki side) that they could pass on, using less than 3 years. I can point to that hypothetical BJJ blue belt I mentioned earlier as an example. Take a better than average blue belt with a knack for teaching, give them a bit of instruction on teaching, and they have a lot of value to deliver in FAR less than the nearly 13 years it took me to get to BB in NGA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's not at all difficult but you are sounding somewhat condescending. Not everyone has the luxury of taking one style and devoting their life to it, they are busy doing things to enable you to be able to stay in that one style for all of your life.

Agreed. I found NGA only after my first two instructors (one Karate, one Karate & Judo) moved away. And my first two NGA instructors moved away, too - I just got lucky that someone kept taking over.

 

[Tez3]

If I am coming off as being condescending because I would prefer to spend my time, energy and money on an instructor that has dedicated his life to one craft that is not my intention. That is simply my preference and I would encourage anyone looking for advice on how to pick a school or instructor to do the same. Does that mean that everyone that does follows a different path should be tossed in the rubbish bin ?

Why mention your preferences at all? Frankly they aren't relevant as you aren't looking for a instructor, mentioning it is like people who are discussing education standards in primary schools and one of them saying 'well of course I have a university degree'. The response to that is ….. and?

 

[Yokozuna514]

Why mention your preferences at all? Frankly they aren't relevant as you aren't looking for a instructor, mentioning it is like people who are discussing education standards in primary schools and one of them saying 'well of course I have a university degree'. The response to that is ….. and?

I mentioned it because the OP asked if we thought it was reasonable for him to teach as a side job. I can only speak from my experience and preference based on what I read. There may be people that think like me so I offer my opinion as a slice of that pie. If you think that means that I feel I am better than you because I feel that way, then you are reading more into what I am saying than I am actually saying.

The more an instructor knows about his craft and when I say 'knows' about his craft I mean has spent years training in their craft compared to someone that has spent 40 hours training in a course, the better they SHOULD be all things created equal. The proof is still in the pudding and people should try the course out to see if it appeals to them.

Hey if you think that time in training, dedicating your life to a particular craft, getting certified and belonging to a larger association with folks that have tons of more experience than you is not necessary to give you the base to teach a MA or SD course, I am not going to argue with you.

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

theres another way of looking at it , as your teaching self defence, have you much experience of defending yourself, if not your in much the same position as most other self defence teachers, and as they cant expect to get their money back if they get beaten up theres not much to loose.

I, unfortunately, do have one real fight under my belt. Ironically, it was not connected with my military service directly, but I did stop one of the scariest men I know (trained in boxing and considerably bigger than me) from strangling a friend of ours, and subsequently subdued him when he decided to try to strangle me instead... and I subdued him with no significant injury to either of us, to boot! I certainly don't have dozens of bar fights under my belt, but then, going around looking for trouble goes against the philosophy of the martial arts, at least in my mind.

I don't suppose you could get posted to the UK anytime soon?

Other people's opinions ( and that's what they are after all) are all very well, but how do you feel about your teaching? If you feel you have enough experience and can see the results from your students, then go for it, do what you think you should do. For some here you wouldn't have enough experience if you been doing a single art for donkey's years, for other they will encourage you all the one. Go with your gut and enjoy.

Sadly no sir, but if you ever want to visit a fellow martial artist across the pond, it would certainly be a pleasure to train with you! And I'm partial to the US Air Force myself, but the SAS dudes I played OPFOR for one time were really cool!

As for my teaching, I generally feel pretty good about it. One of my Aikido instructors (background in Judo and Hapkido, for those of you who are wary of Aikido) watched my first class at the YMCA and was amazed that I was able to wrangle a class of complete beginners. He thought I did an excellent job. Perhaps the best evidence I have, however, is that my tiniest student came into class one day after practicing with her boyfriend and proudly announced that she had to catch him when practicing Osoto Gari because she had successfully thrown him on a collision course with their coffee table!

@Yokozuna514, I just want to say that I very much appreciate your viewpoint, and that very viewpoint is exactly why I posted this thread. I do think I have a knack for teaching (I've done a lot of it in various forms), and I'd like to think I'm a decent martial artist. Still, in a world where so many people have put up a shingle with questionable credentials and taught stuff that is useless at best, and outright dangerous at worst, I want to make sure anything I do both benefits my students while still respecting the many practitioners who have considerably more experience and skill than I do.

 

[Yokozuna514]

You've missed my point. Someone with knowledge of the techniques could be trained to teach them in 40 hours. 40 hours to learn AND learn to teach, not so much. My understanding is that the 40-hour course would have come after he'd learned the techniques being taught. And we're talking about a more compact approach than NGA. I don't think NGA is a teachable base if you don't have at least 7 years in it. I could teach someone a usable skill set (not bothering much with the aiki side) that they could pass on, using less than 3 years. I can point to that hypothetical BJJ blue belt I mentioned earlier as an example. Take a better than average blue belt with a knack for teaching, give them a bit of instruction on teaching, and they have a lot of value to deliver in FAR less than the nearly 13 years it took me to get to BB in NGA.

If your point is that a person can pass on what they learned in a short amount of time, I don't think I missed it. Hopefully everyone can learn something in a short amount of time every time they step on the floor. It is the depth and the breadth of what they can learn and the value of training over a long period of time to finish a course that I think is also important when anyone takes a MA or SD course.

For example, I can take a course in CPR and get certified in 2 to 4 hours. My certification is good for 2 years and then I would be encouraged to take it again. Why ? Because people tend to forget things that they do not practice. Perhaps the person I took the course with did not dedicate their life to CPR training but I would like to think that if I took the course from a person that DID have a higher level of training and more experience using life saving techniques that they would be more capable of answering any questions because of their wider array of experience. That is all I am trying to say.