Ed Parker on change says it all!

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
When you are ready Weedhopper, when you are ready. :asian:

Seig,

The Trash Heap is very likely referring to Whip, Hammer and Thrust as being the only 3 moves in Kenpo.

Mr. Hancock has apparently written a good deal about this and based his teachings on it.

Something about asking a Trash Heap for enlightenment strikes me as very peculiar. I meant to post this sooner.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by cdhall
Seig,

The Trash Heap is very likely referring to Whip, Hammer and Thrust as being the only 3 moves in Kenpo.

Mr. Hancock has apparently written a good deal about this and based his teachings on it.

Something about asking a Trash Heap for enlightenment strikes me as very peculiar. I meant to post this sooner.

You forgot Lift

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
You forgot Lift

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

But then that would make 4...not possible!

 

[Touch Of Death]

Lift, what lift? I think your going off some outdated info. Lift and thrust are the same thing.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by jeffkyle
But then that would make 4...not possible!

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Lift, what lift? I think your going off some outdated info. Lift and thrust are the same thing.

Ok, that's what I got from the tapes and the way he explains it they can't be the same. Care to fill me in.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Touch Of Death]

lift is only an aplication of thrust. Most of the time Thrust represents a pushing concept. The muscles that push are the same that "lift". Its easy to get alittle mixed up because most of the time pushing and or hammer grafted into a push is what a martial artist strives for. Rather than continuing with a 4th catagory he merely accepted that lift and thrust are the same; however, the point of origin (hand or hands at your side) creates a unique application for thrust. To be just a little complex here, there are three types of thrust. Pure, hammer grafted into a thrust, and lift ( that is as your arm naturaly extends to perform thrust, an upward or lifting motion is created and can be of use in striking targets). Personaly I have heard very little on the subject of lift. I find it funny to hear that Kenpo 2000 has that identity. however, for at least the lats eight years or so I've not heard the term within the organization.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
lift is only an aplication of thrust. Most of the time Thrust represents a pushing concept. The muscles that push are the same that "lift". Its easy to get alittle mixed up because most of the time pushing and or hammer grafted into a push is what a martial artist strives for. Rather than continuing with a 4th catagory he merely accepted that lift and thrust are the same; however, the point of origin (hand or hands at your side) creates a unique application for thrust. To be just a little complex here, there are three types of thrust. Pure, hammer grafted into a thrust, and lift ( that is as your arm naturaly extends to perform thrust, an upward or lifting motion is created and can be of use in striking targets). Personaly I have heard very little on the subject of lift. I find it funny to hear that Kenpo 2000 has that identity. however, for at least the lats eight years or so I've not heard the term within the organization.

Lift is what keeps an aircraft in the air. Thrust is what projects it to meet the requirement of lift. Two completely different principles. OK, I may be wrong, but I could've sworn it was on the video.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Touch Of Death]

you are right and that is probably why the whole concept was created; however, the physical motion of the human body only utilizes certain muscles and with that the muscle groupings for thrust and lift are the same. I personaly consider a lift a bad or altered thrust. I don't own the video you are refering to, but you will find that you won't hear that sort of info on future videos. Since I'm on the subject of videos I will say the operation has become much more professional since my haphazard involvment so as far as quality of production goes, I feel you will not be disapointed.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
you are right and that is probably why the whole concept was created; however, the physical motion of the human body only utilizes certain muscles and with that the muscle groupings for thrust and lift are the same. I personaly consider a lift a bad or altered thrust. I don't own the video you are refering to, but you will find that you won't hear that sort of info on future videos. Since I'm on the subject of videos I will say the operation has become much more professional since my haphazard involvment so as far as quality of production goes, I feel you will not be disapointed.

Not to be a spoil sport but I'm sitting here lifting my arm and thrusting my arm and feel distinct differences in the muscle groups used.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Touch Of Death]

I agree that the grouping are "altered" but because of the limited use of lifting in martial arts it wasn't deserving of its own catagory. I'm just speculating on the reasons for discontinuing the concept here. Truth be told you can break down the big three H,T, and W and not only derive lift but thrust in reverse and hammer in reverse which are also distictly different muscle grouping orders. You are on the right track as to why Skip spoke of lift in the first place but in essence, save for L, TiR, and HiR there are only three. We can make it as simple or as complex as we want but we strive for simplicity.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
I agree that the grouping are "altered" but because of the limited use of lifting in martial arts it wasn't deserving of its own catagory. I'm just speculating on the reasons for discontinuing the concept here. Truth be told you can break down the big three H,T, and W and not only derive lift but thrust in reverse and hammer in reverse which are also distictly different muscle grouping orders. You are on the right track as to why Skip spoke of lift in the first place but in essence, save for L, TiR, and HiR there are only three. We can make it as simple or as complex as we want but we strive for simplicity.

OK

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Kirk]

Hey Clyde, check your PMs

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
When you are ready Weedhopper, when you are ready. :asian:

Oh that's very clever If you really believe that you are only rehashing three moves in the entire system, then you are not paying close enough attention.

 

[ArnoldLee]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
Not to be a spoil sport but I'm sitting here lifting my arm and thrusting my arm and feel distinct differences in the muscle groups used.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

It might help to think of lifting and thrusting as to how the initial muscular twitch in the shoulder is transferred down the arm.

Since thrusting uses a relayed method of power delivery and lifting uses a fused method they will (naturally) feel different further down the arm (which I'll bet is what you are experiencing).

I believe what Touch O Death is referring to is that at the shoulder where the motion originates, Thrusting and Lifting should feel identical.

 

[cdhall]

OK.

Then on Thundering Hammers for example.

Is that first strike with your Right Arm

a) Thrusting into your opponent
or
b) Lifting into your opponent

I think it can be said to be doing both or either if I understand correctly. Clue me in. Is this a good example?

Which of Mr. Hancock's videos discusses this?
Would this be the best one?
http://po.kenpo2000.com/item103.htm

I also see this one which looks good as well
http://po.kenpo2000.com/item119.htm

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by cdhall


I also see this one which looks good as well
http://po.kenpo2000.com/item119.htm

The 3 key executions From Maui even! Wow!

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Seig
Oh that's very clever If you really believe that you are only rehashing three moves in the entire system, then you are not paying close enough attention.

Seig:

While I believe that Touch of Death is not a palatable source of information, Mr. Hancock is widely regarded in high-esteem and this idea comes from him.

It may be a very simple idea to get you to improve your execution of everything, I can't say. Maybe not 3 moves. It may be more accurate to say 3 Methods of Execution.

But sometimes I say that there is only One Technique in Kenpo-Move and don't violate a concept or principle.

I don't think that this is wrong, but it is very sophisticated and of course it will not help anyone learn anything and requires one to know all the concepts and principles before it has any meaning. Anyway, I'm not saying that I know everything yet, but I'm sure you get my point. This is an interesting hypothesis I like to think about. It usually starts or complicates a discussion and that is what I use it for.

So I imagine that Mr. Hancock has done something similar. I personally want to look into his stuff. Mr. Conatser has told me it is "different" from most of what I've seen or at least from how I've mostly seen stuff presented.

Off the top of my head are not all the blocks either Thrusting or Hammering? Could not a Push Down Block (like the end of Long 1) be characterized as a "slow" downward thrust? What about a vigorous one? I know there is one in a technique somewhere, I know there is one in Two Man set but I can't think of where one is in a technique.

I'm just thinking out loud now. I should shut up.
:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Just to throw my own bit into this particular pot of stone soup, I'd argue that a) this idea limits everything in kenpo to striking, b) this way of describing strikes suggests that power is generated only from the upper body.

Note that a) only the arms are being discussed, b) there are a lot of comments such as, "in the shoulder...where the motion originates."

 

[roryneil]

If you are going to 3, why not just 2, push or pull