Ed Parker on change says it all!

[twinkletoes]

If I remember later I will post the quote from the end of Infinite Insights vol 1 that I love. But it goes something like this:

"I urge you to keep abreast of new innovations in the use of your natural weapons......"

It is all about keeping up with the times!

(If anyone wants to post it first, it's right after the discussion of the machine gun in the colliseum)

~TT

 

[rmcrobertson]

Has it occurred to anybody that there's an inherent contradiction in insisting that we not slavishly repeat the kenpo system, then turning around and repeating Mr. Parker's words again and again and again?

It is NOT all about keeping up with the times. What's as important, the urge to go study this or that style is not the same thing as modernizing.

The basic argument, built into kenpo as a whole, is that kenpo is not just another system. None of the other systems are "foreign," to it. Is it true. From what I've seen, yes. But I dunno if that's what I'll think in ten years.

If you pick and choose without reasons for picking and choosing, there's a problem. Kenpo provides reasons for picking and choosing.

There is groundfighting in kenpo. Its approach is not the same as BJJ. Kenpo does not focus on groundfighting, or any other single fighting skill for that matter. It has a different focus.

It is not necessarily "CRAZY!" to want to study for a long time.

Nobody can plug every hole in their ability to protect themselves.

And, the biggie: what, precisely, are people teaching their students?

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Has it occurred to anybody that there's an inherent contradiction in insisting that we not slavishly repeat the kenpo system, then turning around and repeating Mr. Parker's words again and again and again?

It is NOT all about keeping up with the times. What's as important, the urge to go study this or that style is not the same thing as modernizing.

The basic argument, built into kenpo as a whole, is that kenpo is not just another system. None of the other systems are "foreign," to it. Is it true. From what I've seen, yes. But I dunno if that's what I'll think in ten years.

If you pick and choose without reasons for picking and choosing, there's a problem. Kenpo provides reasons for picking and choosing.

There is groundfighting in kenpo. Its approach is not the same as BJJ. Kenpo does not focus on groundfighting, or any other single fighting skill for that matter. It has a different focus.

It is not necessarily "CRAZY!" to want to study for a long time.

Nobody can plug every hole in their ability to protect themselves.

And, the biggie: what, precisely, are people teaching their students?

WOW!! Once again,here we go....talking in circles. Why can't the question be answered instead of answering it with another queston??????????????????????? Repeating MR, Parkers words....well, considering he has ALOT of knowledge, alot more than some of us here, why not listen to them? Robert, what is YOUR version of modernizing?? Like I have said before, our versions of groundfighting are VERY different. Robert, please share with us, YOUR version of what groundfighting is in Kenpo???

What am I teaching my students? It depends on the student and what THEY want out of it. I teach them the SD, but if it looks like they are not sure about the tech. I make sure that they have an understanding of it. I show them the "What IFS" in the tech. I also add my own little tricks to spice up the tech.

MS

 

[Touch Of Death]

Our instructors are only human Even though Kenpo by defenition
(a way of using your fists with parameters defined) has every possible logical motion that anyone can think of, your instructor can not possibly be privy to all the innovations of modern times. I'll tell you this, my instructor is such a man that I feel I'll never know as much about kenpo as he does; however, he has long since stopped claiming he knows all anyone needs to know. Looking at motion through the filters that other systems provide are the "spaces between the notes" that Ed Parker spoke of, in my opinion.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Our instructors are only human Even though Kenpo by defenition
(a way of using your fists with parameters defined) has every possible logical motion that anyone can think of, your instructor can not possibly be privy to all the innovations of modern times. I'll tell you this, my instructor is such a man that I feel I'll never know as much about kenpo as he does; however, he has long since stopped claiming he knows all anyone needs to know. Looking at motion through the filters that other systems provide are the "spaces between the notes" that Ed Parker spoke of, in my opinion.

TOD- My instructors do NOT know everything. But, they, through the arts that they have studied, have shown me the weaknesses in Kenpo. Through them, I've been able to fill those gaps.

MS

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by MJS
TOD- My instructors do NOT know everything. But, they, through the arts that they have studied, have shown me the weaknesses in Kenpo. Through them, I've been able to fill those gaps.

MS

I hope you mean you are in the process of.

 

[Kalicombat]

Touch 0'Death,
No, I think MJS realy believes he has all the answers. He has spewed his nonsense on the validity of groundfighting, the holes that Kenpo possess, and what a rugged "Real Life" combatant he is. He's even let us in on his prison career. He hasnt however, given us anything we havent heard from any other number of ground fighting proponents that have come to this board. He has a reply for everything. He is after all, only 29 years old, and has been in the martial arts for 17, so it would go to figure that he has it all figured out.
Maybe he's an innovator. Trying to enlighten the kenpo population on the things that we have all missed.

MJS,
Its simple. Regardless of training, system, style, technique, skill conditioning, etc.... If any of us cant make what we learn work for us, then it is useless. Martial artists all have preferences, and those preferences are based upon many factors. For me, experience has shaped my preferences, and knowing what has worked and what hasnt worked for me in the past, even more so.
I dont care what you think of kenpo, but I do care that you come here, and try to continuously convert kenpoists into believing in your rants. You have a right to your opinion, but not at the cost of trying to discredit everyone elses. You're not going to cause John Kenpo Doe to sit at his computer and suddenly question weather the training he has been doing for the last year, 2, 3, 4, 20, etc... is all useless just because some cat from Connecticut has stated that it is.
You continuously spout that there are those in here that are close minded, dont you think that is the pot calling the kettle black? You have already learned enough to know that groundfighting is the way. I have learned that it isnt. I've fought grapplers, with finishing skills and with out. They bleed just like everyone else. They are not impervious to pain, and when their cranials make contact with cement, they suffer from the smae concusions we all do.
You, in my opinion, are a success story for the marketing hype of the Gracies, and the NHB craze. They filled the magazines and pay-per-view schedules with their shows, videos, and ads hoping to attract a group of people much like you seem to be. Those that are looking for THEE answer. Well, sit down for this..... There is NO "THEE" answer. I dont know you, have never met you or ever seen a picture of you, but it is my guess you are a small statured man. Not that small statured men are all like you, but you seem to have the Napolean complex. Or, to put it another way, the smallest dogs make the biggest noise.
Good luck in your quest to teach us all what we are missing or lacking.

Gary Catherman.

 

[Fastmover]

"There is groundfighting in kenpo. Its approach is not the same as BJJ."


I agree to this to some extent. Even though Mr Parker did not leave a ground fighting system in place in Kenpo, many if not most principles of Kenpo do apply on the ground. Our approach on the ground should not be the same as the BJJ guys. I would not advocate anyone to continue to engage and re-engage their opponent on the ground in a self defense situation. Escape and getting back to our feet is key.

By the way it was a good point on the examples of Kenpo on the ground in Vol 3 in another thread.

Take care
John

 

[rmcrobertson]

Thank you.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Fastmover
Greatgrand Master Ed Parker wrote:
“When I am gone, I hope that people won't try to traditionalize my Art. I want you to always remember that Kenpo will always be the Art of Perpetual Change. If you remember this, then the Art will never become obsolete because it will change with the times. While the ignorant refuse to study and the intelligent never stop, we should always be mindful of the fact that our reward in life is proportionate with the contributions we make. A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change, but one who causes it to happen. To live is to change, and to obtain perfection is to have changed often. Progress is a necessity that is a part of nature. While it is true that casting the old aside is not necessary in order to obtain something new, we should study old theories not as a means of discrediting them, but to see if they can be modified to improve our present conditions. A word of advice, The humble man makes room for progress; the proud man believes he is already there."
Edmund Kealoha Parker Sr.

That has been posted on our home page of our SubLevel Four Kenpo site for ten years.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Kalicombat
Touch 0'Death,
No, I think MJS realy believes he has all the answers. He has spewed his nonsense on the validity of groundfighting, the holes that Kenpo possess, and what a rugged "Real Life" combatant he is. He's even let us in on his prison career. He hasnt however, given us anything we havent heard from any other number of ground fighting proponents that have come to this board. He has a reply for everything. He is after all, only 29 years old, and has been in the martial arts for 17, so it would go to figure that he has it all figured out.
Maybe he's an innovator. Trying to enlighten the kenpo population on the things that we have all missed.

MJS,
Its simple. Regardless of training, system, style, technique, skill conditioning, etc.... If any of us cant make what we learn work for us, then it is useless. Martial artists all have preferences, and those preferences are based upon many factors. For me, experience has shaped my preferences, and knowing what has worked and what hasnt worked for me in the past, even more so.
I dont care what you think of kenpo, but I do care that you come here, and try to continuously convert kenpoists into believing in your rants. You have a right to your opinion, but not at the cost of trying to discredit everyone elses. You're not going to cause John Kenpo Doe to sit at his computer and suddenly question weather the training he has been doing for the last year, 2, 3, 4, 20, etc... is all useless just because some cat from Connecticut has stated that it is.
You continuously spout that there are those in here that are close minded, dont you think that is the pot calling the kettle black? You have already learned enough to know that groundfighting is the way. I have learned that it isnt. I've fought grapplers, with finishing skills and with out. They bleed just like everyone else. They are not impervious to pain, and when their cranials make contact with cement, they suffer from the smae concusions we all do.
You, in my opinion, are a success story for the marketing hype of the Gracies, and the NHB craze. They filled the magazines and pay-per-view schedules with their shows, videos, and ads hoping to attract a group of people much like you seem to be. Those that are looking for THEE answer. Well, sit down for this..... There is NO "THEE" answer. I dont know you, have never met you or ever seen a picture of you, but it is my guess you are a small statured man. Not that small statured men are all like you, but you seem to have the Napolean complex. Or, to put it another way, the smallest dogs make the biggest noise.
Good luck in your quest to teach us all what we are missing or lacking.

Gary Catherman.

Gary-I am not trying to convert anybody. I'm simply stating some things that I have seen in Kenpo, and what I have done to change them for my own needs. I'm simply offering a suggestion, what you do is your own business, and I could care less. You keep referring, and I dont know why, to the ground fihgting. I have said before, and I'll say again, that I am not saying study the art for 20 yrs, but there is nothing wrong with taking a few things and adding it to the Kenpo. My age and expereince in the prison also has nothing to do with it. Are you saying that just because I'm only 29 that I'm an expert on every topic? Because that is not what I'm saying. I dont know how long you've been training, maybe its longer and maybe not. Regardless, I have come across other people that I train with that I have trained my Kenpo with, who have found the weaknesses in the art. As for the prison, I used that example, because, there are people in there that could care less about your life, and would think nothing of assaulting or even killing you. If you want to survive in there, you better have some decent skills.

Just because I grapple, does not make me an expert on the subject. It is something I do because I like it..if you dont thats fine, I could care less. It appears to me that everybody in here in content with the skills that they learn. GREAT! However, you should not look down upon somebody just because they are offering a suggestion as to maybe make something a little better. As for my size...well at 5'10, I dont consider myself small or large. I don't have a small mans complex, in fact, I feel very confident with the skills that I have. You, like so many others on here, seem so closed to any suggestions, because God forbid it isnt kenpo, then it must not be any good. You talk about the pot calling the kettle black....well, at least I have an open mind and am not afraid to admit a shortcoming or weakness unlike you. Maybe at some point in your MA training, you will see what I'm talking about, but then again, I'm sure that you won't!

Mike

 

[Fastmover]

I saw that myself, its one of many great quotes that Mr. Parker left behind.

Be Good

 

[Fastmover]

"That has been posted on our home page of our SubLevel Four Kenpo site for ten years."

Whoops sorry......

I saw that myself, its one of many great quotes that Mr. Parker left behind. Good stuff!

 

[sumdumguy]

Ok, Book 5 page 233.
"Therefore, I write not to make converts, but to share concepts and principles overlooked by other systems. I further hope that capitalizing on my discoveries will allow those who are interested, more time to experiment and exploit other areas needing study."
Really, what is he saying? How does this effect us as Martial artists AND Kenpoists? What does it matter what Mr. Parker thought, he is no longer with us to regulate the administration of education of the Kenpo system? What is Kenpo Now?

Happy arguing :asian: :asian:

 

[twinkletoes]

sumdumguy,

That is a great quote. I'm sure it will quickly appear on the other threads at present by one side as validating Parker's encouragement on looking into other arts, and by the other as backup that kenpo has all the principles found in the arts.

At least we will have something new to argue about

~TT

 

[Turner]

I've seen this topic come up time and time again and I've seen people get utterly pummelled because of their opinion. All for what? Is this just another example of Kenpo politics running amok? It is great that you guys/gals are A-type personalities but it would be really nice if you could temper that passion with a good dose of logic and see what the other is saying.

I'll spell it out for you: Both sides are right!

The average Kenpo instructor doesn't teach much in the way of working with a stick or fighting on the ground. The average student is going to have difficulty using the Kenpo principles while standing and while on the ground...

Kenpo attracted me because it was all about self defense. It taught the why's and hows of Kenpo as soon as you started learning. It acted under the presumption that you didn't have 5 years to learn how to defend yourself because you could be attacked on your way home from class that very night. Kenpo is about being effective and efficient.

Kenpo teachs principles that will work in any situation, whether on the ground, with weapons or standing up. It all works because it is founded on basic truths. Yet the average Kenpo instructor doesn't teach how those principles relate to weapons or groundwork so the average student isn't going to quickly grasp how they relate to each other. There is no frame of comparison and the Kenpo teacher may not have the experience, knowledge or understanding to make it click.

What is the student to do? Should they stay with Kenpo and just figure out how those principles work on the ground? It could take a life time to do that. Isn't it more effective and efficient to go to someone who is specifically trained for ground fighting and learn how they do it and then look at the techniques and be able to say "Wow, That principle that I learned in Five Swords also works here."

Everyone has to remember that we are but human. We should strive to achieve our fullest potential no matter which way it takes us. How we teach Kenpo or a Kenpo mix will always be flawwed, we will always have a student look at our art and find little holes that need to be filled. The simple fact is that we are human and can not fill these holes, but we shouldn't give up. If it takes learning Brazilian Jujitsu or Arnis to fill these holes... do it and don't worry what anyone thinks. If you would prefer to look at those holes and see how Kenpo itself can fill those holes... do it and don't worry what anyone thinks. Just shut up and train. If you think that the Kenpo that you are taught doesn't have any holes, then you need to look again. EVERYTHING created by man can be improved upon. If your Kenpo is perfect then what are you training for?

It's all in there. It doesn't matter if you are studying Kenpo, Brazilian Jujitsu, Goju-ryu Karate or Hapkido... All of the answers are contained in that art if you just look hard enough to find them. The principles are there. Just sometimes/most of the times you need to go to another art or another teacher to see how they all relate to each other. Yes it is flawed and yet at the same time it is perfect. I'd have to write a book to explain it well.

But I'm only 25 so my ideas would be thrown out... That is one thing I hate about martial artists. Age don't mean jack when it comes to skill or experience in any aspect of life. I've lived more in my 25 years than most people live in 50, then then that is another book I'd have to write.

So just shut your pie hole and train. There is more than one way to do things and one doesn't have to be better than the other. It's just different.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Turner: Thank you for eloquently summarizing over 100 posts on four different threads.

 

[Michael Billings]

I would at least read your book.

You gave a good, reasonable, synopsis ... and provided answers, or training paradigms, for both sides in the contraversy. Well done!

 

[lonekimono]

It just makes my head spin when i see people talking about Mr Parker and what he said( which i like) but i know some people don't follow the Parker system, and that's ok to but like i said in another post let's put all the power that we are using to get someone mad and have then say something that will get EVERYONE going, what the hell is wrong with people??
let's move on. Mr Parker said alot of cool things and did alot of great things , I THINK WE ALL KNOW THIS OK?? now i have to go open my school, play nice.:asian: :asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

"It could take a life time to do that. Isn't it more effective and efficient to go to someone who is specifically trained for ground fighting and learn how they do it and then look at the techniques...?"

Yes, it could. And the attempt to circumvent the necessity of long study, and to immediately go for what is immediately, "efficient," is exactly where the problems appear.

Martial arts are not simply about learning technology quickly--even if we assume that nobody's instructors teach this stuff. Yes, kenpo offers self-defense organized efficently, teachably, intelligently. Yes, kenpo offers the same criticism of traditional arts that is being offered here, so all some folks are doing is following out the basic logic of Mr. Parker's ideas.

However--and it's a point that Mr. Parker and others have made again and again and again...it is still more efficient to get a gun. As I have in the past, I'd refer everybody to that great theoretical work, Michael Crichton's "Jurassic Park," for commentary on the difference between power acquired quickly, easily, cheaply, and power acquired through slow, tedious, difficult study.

But I never saw this as two sides of an argument, however badly some folks insisted upon such polarization.

And--sorry to be personal--but while it's one thing to have fifty years of experience and another to have one year's experience 50 times, there is also such a thing as experience. Which I am not claiming, in the martial arts--life, different story.