Ed Parker on change says it all!

[roryneil]

I don't think someone at my mid-belt level should be jumping from art to art, or even bother to look at another art until obtaining a black in his/her primary art. But a 4th degree black doesn't necessarily need slow, tedious and difficult study in a new and perhaps similar art. You certainly don't need to learn how to make a fist or anything of that nature.

 

[twinkletoes]

Turner,

That was a well-thought and articulate post. I'm sure you will get much argument over it In all seriousness, I agree. And don't get down on yourself for being 25-I'm 23 and I know you're right

Rory,

What you say is also true. I know only a few individuals who successfully trained in more than one style WITHOUT starting with a strong base in a single style. (The last one was a guy who got black belts in both Kenpo and Modern Arnis within 5 years....hell of a guy....he's a great teacher, to boot). It is very difficult to train multiple styles without having a solid foundation in one, unless you are very organized, very motivated, and usually pretty athletically inclined. I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be done, but many people burn out or get overwhelmed.

The exception to what I've just said is when an intermediate level student of one art starts taking a completely different art, and the primary art is clearly emphasized over the other. For example, I was a purple belt in Kenpo when I started Arnis, but Arnis was strictly supplemental for me until I got my black in Kenpo. I did it because it was at the same school, and there was little overlap until I became advanced. After black belt, it was all about Arnis!

To study two styles with equal intensity without a background in martial arts is extremely difficult.

Best,

~TT

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Rory:

Study of a new art doesn't need to be slow or tedious, but it does need to go back to the most simple basics.

For instance, compare a Kenpo stance to a Shotokan stance. Kenpo neutral bow has a 50/50 front/rear weight distribution. Kenpo forward bow is 60/40. Shotokan fighting stances are 60/40 and Front Bow's are more like 70/30. This subtle difference in weighting has a huge impact on how much power you deliver and how quickly you move. Whether you train to settle at 50/50 or 60/40 makes a big difference in whether you are going to move like a Kenpoist or like a Shotokan-ist.

Likewise simple basics such as blocking. Does you block start from a neutral position or a check position as in Kenpo, or is it a fully committed and cocked move like in Shotokan?

How about comparing a boxing hook punch vs a Kenpoists hook punch. If other Kenpoists learned to throw a hook in the early 70's like me, they learned to throw a hook punch that starts from the hip, rotates with the hips toward the target and then turns into a straight punch. Boxers learn a hook that starts at head level and rotates around the center line on a horizontal plane. If you train one style, you have to relearn basics to move to another and can't necessarily jump from a 3rd or 4th Degree in Kenpo to the same proficiency in Shotokan, Boxing, or any other art.

The value of this type of cross training is more than just learning the new style. You also learn to question you Kenpo and analyze why movements are done the way they are. It really helps your Kenpo understanding.

An analogy I like to use is studying a foreign language. In high school, everyone had to study a foreign language. I chose Spanish. I learned a lot about grammar that really helped me in my understanding of English. Certainly, I could have refused to study the foreign language arguing that I needed to learn a lot more English before I learned anything else. But then I would have lost out on the insights into English I gained by learning Spanish.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka

An analogy I like to use is studying a foreign language. In high school, everyone had to study a foreign language. I chose Spanish. I learned a lot about grammar that really helped me in my understanding of English. Certainly, I could have refused to study the foreign language arguing that I needed to learn a lot more English before I learned anything else. But then I would have lost out on the insights into English I gained by learning Spanish.

Had you continued to study English would you not have gained the same knowledge?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Clyde: Good question. Yes, actually I already had the knowledge, but what I was missing and would have missed for a very long time was the understanding of the importance of the knowledge.

I understood the basics of English grammar before I got to high school. I knew how to conjugate verbs and knew all kinds of fancy rules for sentence construction. But I took it for granted and didn't think it was important.

What I didn't know before studying Spanish was why the rules were important, that other rules existed or even could exist, and that there were rules for which English had no equivalent. Examples of the rules with no equivalent include having both a familiar and formal version of the word "you" ("tu" and "usted") along with different verb conjugations for tu and usted, and assigning gender to nouns and adjectives.

Learning these rules in Spanish made me look at and compare the rules in English. Learning Spanish grammar forced me to stop taking English grammar for granted.

So too with my Martial Arts study. I took Shotokan for a couple of years to satisfy my college PE requirement. It really helped me understand stances, power, explosion and to better understand how those work in Kenpo. Aiki-Jujitsu helped me understand the joint leverage and manipulation that is so important in many Kenpo techniques. Could I have learned this from a Kenpo instructor? Sure. But, for me, not as quickly. It was the comparative perspective that switched the light on for me. It was looking in from the outside that helped me to understand why Kenpo principles were important and how they work both in Kenpo and outside of Kenpo.

 

[twinkletoes]

I can relate to OFK with the English-spanish connection. I didn't realize that people used adverbs so infrequently until I started needing to use them in spanish.

Could I have learned that without spanish? YES. But sometimes all it takes is a fresh perspective (it could have been a new english teacher) to make that point. But once I saw that, I extrapolated the idea back into English and became newly self-aware. It refined a part of my self-analysis.

The same is true of all the arts I study. They all feed back into one another, and lead me right back to the beginning.

Great analogy, OFK.

~TT

 

[lonekimono]

Hey guys i know what, i'll put on the coffee and we can all come over to my house and talk oh and if someone can bring the coffee cake?

 

[twinkletoes]

i'll bring the eye protection.

ya never know!

~TT

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Had you continued to study English would you not have gained the same knowledge?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Actually Clyde I've learned more about the english language during the short amount of time that I've been studying Russian than I ever did as an undergrad.

Sometimes you need a fresh perspective.

"It could take a life time to do that. Isn't it more effective and efficient to go to someone who is specifically trained for ground fighting and learn how they do it and then look at the techniques...?"

Robertson:
Yes, it could. And the attempt to circumvent the necessity of long study, and to immediately go for what is immediately, "efficient," is exactly where the problems appear.

Says you!!! That is the worst argument I've heard against cross training yet. Do I advocate that every body study two or three arts? No (....but hell... Chapel has studied in a bunch of different arts and everyone seems to be okay with that). I don't care how much you argue, people are, essentially, the summation of their experiences. So I'm not sure how Chapel can argue that his past study doesn't, in any way, effect the way he teaches, but whatever.

If I can be an efficient groundfighter with one year of crosstraining as opposed to 10 years of guided kenpo study, guess which one I'm gonna pick? I guess I'm just contributing to the degradation of the art, huh?

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Actually Clyde I've learned more about the english language during the short amount of time that I've been studying Russian than I ever did as an undergrad.

Sometimes you need a fresh perspective.



Says you!!! That is the worst argument I've heard against cross training yet. Do I advocate that every body study two or three arts? No (....but hell... Chapel has studied in a bunch of different arts and everyone seems to be okay with that). I don't care how much you argue, people are, essentially, the summation of their experiences. So I'm not sure how Chapel can argue that his past study doesn't, in any way, effect the way he teaches, but whatever.

If I can be an efficient groundfighter with one year of crosstraining as opposed to 10 years of guided kenpo study, guess which one I'm gonna pick? I guess I'm just contributing to the degradation of the art, huh?

I suppose it all boils down to what or how you've been taught. If there are holes in your Kenpo it's because of three reasons 1) you didn't grasp or care to take the info given 2)your instructor wasn't/isn't privy to the info so you don't get it either 3)your instructor has/had the info but does not care to share it with you. The same theory could be applied to those that said learning another language made their English better.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[rmcrobertson]

As the only guy here who actually has studied English and martial arts for more than ten years each--well, I think I am...likely to be wrong again--let me repeat: the problem isn't cross-training.

Ya wanna cross-train, cross-train. Groovy. You may get further than I have. Even better.

The problem are the rationales--the Almighty God of Efficiency; becoming a better fighter; acquiring more technology.

Here's another way to put it--borrowed from Mr. Tatum--since by brown belt you can defend yourself in any reasonable situation (I'd add my own twist--by black, you can handle pretty much as you're ever going to be able to handle, in terms of sheer fighting--though not matters like strategy)--what's the point of going beyond brown belt?

If you think it's just a matter of fighting, there is no point. And this is where the real contradiction appears--I don't believe it's just fighting skills that we're trying to learn.

I despise efficiency for efficiency's sake. Among other things--stupid forms! this is a chunk of what those worthless forms teach--it leaves out the fact that in martial arts, the most-beautiful is also the strongest and most appropriate. (Please, spare me the cliche that in a fight form goes out the window; yes, indeedy, I've heard and read the cliche that," guts and heart take over where..." I got it, OK?)

I also don't believe for a second that piling tech on tech, move on move, goes anywhere. This is a big chunk of what's wrong with my writing students--they think writing well is just a matter of learning a buncha tricks, techniques without purpose or meaning or heart. Who cares if you have anything to say?

The best reason I've heard to cross-train is OFK's. But again, if ya wanna, go get 'em for whatever reason. Hell, who am I to say? So many are more talented, more insightful than I am...great. But just quit reiterating that everyvody has to..well, you get the picture.

 

[MJS]

Turner- EXCELLENT post! We all train under different inst. who have different exp and was of teaching. Everybody does things differently. It is true, like Clyde said in reagrds to the training, but unfortunately, we can't all train under a direct student of Parker. As for the cross training, this too, is something that is not for everybody. We are all different. We all learn things in a different way. Some of us would have no problem with learning 2 arts, while others would. It all depends on the person. Just because one person doesnt like it, does not mean that nobody else should do it.

I would not recommend crosstraining until the person has a good understanding of their base art. If someone has never done MA, they will be having a hard enough time learning the basic moves in Kenpo, nevermind trying to learn TKD, or boxing, or BJJ!

Turner, another thing that you said which I find very true. You said, if your Kenpo is so perfect, then why train? Like I said in the beginning, we are all different. Just because one person disagrees, does not mean we all have to! There are many Kenpo inst. that have rank in other arts. They are crosstraining and you are right, nobody seems to say anything to them. Why is that? Instead of being so concerned as to what others are doing, people should be more concerned with themselves!!!! Is your skill level going up? Are you becoming a better fighter? Are you training? If you can answer yes to these questions, then you are on the right path. As long as its working for you, who cares what someone else thinks.

As for crosstraining, I can only speak for myself. If we only do 1 thing, how can you possibly learn how anyone else is going to fight? If I'm making myself better and making my Kenpo better by learning a move from JKD, then who cares. As long as the individual person is getting better, why should anybody else feel the need to get involved?

MJS

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by MJS
Turner- EXCELLENT post! We all train under different inst. who have different exp and was of teaching. Everybody does things differently. It is true, like Clyde said in reagrds to the training, but unfortunately, we can't all train under a direct student of Parker. As for the cross training, this too, is something that is not for everybody. We are all different. We all learn things in a different way. Some of us would have no problem with learning 2 arts, while others would. It all depends on the person. Just because one person doesnt like it, does not mean that nobody else should do it.

I would not recommend crosstraining until the person has a good understanding of their base art. If someone has never done MA, they will be having a hard enough time learning the basic moves in Kenpo, nevermind trying to learn TKD, or boxing, or BJJ!

Turner, another thing that you said which I find very true. You said, if your Kenpo is so perfect, then why train? Like I said in the beginning, we are all different. Just because one person disagrees, does not mean we all have to! There are many Kenpo inst. that have rank in other arts. They are crosstraining and you are right, nobody seems to say anything to them. Why is that? Instead of being so concerned as to what others are doing, people should be more concerned with themselves!!!! Is your skill level going up? Are you becoming a better fighter? Are you training? If you can answer yes to these questions, then you are on the right path. As long as its working for you, who cares what someone else thinks.

As for crosstraining, I can only speak for myself. If we only do 1 thing, how can you possibly learn how anyone else is going to fight? If I'm making myself better and making my Kenpo better by learning a move from JKD, then who cares. As long as the individual person is getting better, why should anybody else feel the need to get involved?

MJS

I never thought of it as an issue until it came up here. My only involvement is my posts, and everybody else's. If you choose not to have this involvement, it's a simple mouse click away. And then there's always that ignore feature on this site, which would be of value on the KenpoNet LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

I also don't believe for a second that piling tech on tech, move on move, goes anywhere. This is a big chunk of what's wrong with my writing students--they think writing well is just a matter of learning a buncha tricks, techniques without purpose or meaning or heart. Who cares if you have anything to say?

The best reason I've heard to cross-train is OFK's. But again, if ya wanna, go get 'em for whatever reason. Hell, who am I to say? So many are more talented, more insightful than I am...great. But just quit reiterating that everyvody has to..well, you get the picture. [/B]

As for piling on tech after tech.--In the Kenpo system, we have countless tech. and extensions afte that. Why do the extension? Isn't that just adding more? Even if you are not adding extra tech. why can't you borrow a concept or idea from another art and apply it to the Kenpo? You mentioned writing. When we first learned to write, we learned how to put a sentence together, add periods, commas, etc. Why bother doing that? Why not just let the sentences run into each other, with no punctuation? That is in a way, adding more to what you already know, right?

Please dont confuse someones input with them being more talented and insightful than you. We are all different. Neither myself, or any of the recent posters is speaking for everybody...they are speaking in general and about themselves. They have made NO mention that in order for someone to be good, they have to cross train. They are simply saying that it happens to work for them.

MJS

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
I never thought of it as an issue until it came up here. My only involvement is my posts, and everybody else's. If you choose not to have this involvement, it's a simple mouse click away. And then there's always that ignore feature on this site, which would be of value on the KenpoNet LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

And that is your choosing!! If you choose not to cross train, then that is your business. I, along with a few others on here happen to do that, and it works for us. Will it work for someone else? Well, that depends on the person. It isnt for everybody!

MJS

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh... if you'd just been explaining what works for you, I doubt anybody'd have any objections.

But that's not the case. From the start, you've insisted in all sorts of ways that anybody who doesn't cross-train is an idiot...

At the very least and most moderate, there's been this sort of thing: "As for crosstraining, I can only speak for myself. If we only do 1 thing, how can you possibly learn how anyone else is going to fight?" On one hand, "I"--fair enough, and on the other, "we." To mention the old joke about Tonto and the Lone Ranger surrounded by Indians, "What's this we...?"

Then there's all this nonsense, about, "it isn't for everybody," and the constant suggestion that only you want to learn "real," martial arts. Tell me what "real," is, and I'll tell you whether I agree. (Trust me: Clyde is real, in all senses. I have the lumps to prove it.)

Two other points. First, part of what I was trying to say is that sheer personal desire and even personal brilliance doesn't make one capable of changing things. You need to be in the right place at the right time, to get an Edward Parker. The times have changed.

Second--learning extensions within kenpo ain't at all the same thing, for reasons I already discussed. Skill, technique--vocabulary in many senses--are all to the good. Unless they lack an animating spirit and an organizing philosophy--which is what can too-easily be lost. And anyway, haven't you argued for doing away with a buncha techniques? the sets? the forms? all that "useless," stuff in kenpo?

For about the 95th time, I think it's great that you're doing what you're doing. Mazeltov. Just quit telling the rest of us about the "holes," the impracticality, of what we're doing, eh? Maybe a few fewer exclamation points too, but that's just the English teacher in me...

I can appreciate what you're doing. You need to appreciate this: some of us are older, and we have different aims. You're interested in fighting--I'm not. I'm interested in teaching, and self-defense.

I could quote the, "Car Talk," guys here, but you get the point.

 

[Touch Of Death]

To be against cross training is to reject understanding how other people think. Plato talked about that "shadows in a cave" thing. We are creating a culture of cave dwellers here. Saying and hearing that those other styles suck might help endear a beginner to Kenpo but that love will be short lived once the real world hits. Step into the light

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sigh.

I guess I'll just have to reconcile myself to being an eyeless cave fish.

 

[Seig]

in these discussions. I have argued with nearly everyone on this board at some point. Sometimes because I actually believed in what I was saying, and others merely because I was playing the devil's advocate. This silly debate has now spanned how long and how many threads? That in and of itself is becoming a common theme,"If a signifigant amount of people disagree with you, create a new thread on the same topic." Instead of endless debate with several of you, I have been debating myself for several days on whether or not to post this. Some believe in cross training, others do not. Here is my simple statement on that entire topic, the martial arts are very similiar to a pyramid. Once you get to the top, regardless of which one you are on, the view is pretty much the same. A very good friend of mine does the Phillipino arts, I do kenpo, we are both advanced students. Guess what, in many ways we move very similiarly. I am all for everyone becoming better martial artists, but what the real argument that is forming is, purists vs mixers. We here about change and evolution of the art, and it is very obvious that SGM wanted just that. What he did not tell us was how. At least he didn't tell me, I wasn't there and have to rely on his books, videos and the accounts of those that were. We have heard from some of them. My question for you is this, at what point have we evolved Kenpo so much that it is no longer Kenpo? If we wish to grow and adapt and innovate our art, should we not have a complete understanding of the base system first? SGM left us the tools to do it, "what if" "formulation". No matter which curriculuum you study, there is a point at which the curriculuum is completed, is there not? Isn't that the point that was set for people to start innovating? In the 32 tech system, it was first degree black, in the 24 tech, it is 3rd degree, and in the 16 tech it is 5th black. Now, I'm not going to go through that particular argument. But the issue within this issue is that you need time and experience within the art to really understand it. Remember, American Kenpo is a system, not a style.

 

[Touch Of Death]

well first of all I never said we should devote years and years to cross training. escapes from the mount or understanding the defensive nature of Muay Thai are things to keep in mind not devote your life to. The lessons these other systems have to teach come very quickly as contasted with your kenpo training. Kenpo is only three simple moves in varying order; so, learning every possible senerio of motion isnt going to add to your ability to move it only adds to your tactical repitios. Kenpo usualy teaches a return motion that is counter to the return motion of Muay Thai. I shouldn't have to do one for fifteen years before I learn the other (which is exactly what I did). I have room in my life for both methods, and I think you do too.