Easy to Carry, Easy to Use Self Defense Weapons

[frank raud]

i happily admitted i was wrong about the fuller, check the thread.
i stand by the use of keys as i described it. everyone who put me down can't think past punching someone with keys, or being unable to grab them in time, both things covered in my analysis. you guys are just dicks.

and citing stats does not prove anything, unless you cite the numbers those percentages were drawn from.

Here are the stats, make of a single line what you will. Ps. No percentages were used in my comment, just a single number. Homicides by murder weapon in the U.S. 2019 | Statista

 

[lklawson]

the first picture on the left shows the correct way to hold a knife for killing a man. the one on the far right shows exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you willlose it. this is exactly what i described, thank you steve for providing this pictoral aid.

Sorry (not sorry) but you are still not as educated on this topic as you think. The "thumb on the flat of the blade" method of holding a fighting knife is comparatively common. Most notably for me, it was a technique taught sometimes for renaissance era left-handed/parrying daggers.



2. G. dall'Agocchie, Dell'arte di scrimia (Venetia, I572) ff. 35 verso-36: "Lep[ido Ranieri]: As for holding it [the dagger] in hand, how do you want it to be held? Gio[vanni dall'Agocchie]: Almost flatly [vs. enemy], directing its right edge toward the right side; in this way you will have the palm freer to beat off the enemy's sword outward, especially its point; besides, having propped up the dagger [blade] with your thumb, you will have more strength in parrying above the head; and moreover, holding it as I have just said, the dagger hilt [guard] will give a better protection."
Some Notes on Parrying Daggers and Poniards
LEONID TARASSUK
Research Associate, Department of Arms and Armor, The Metropolitan Museum of Art

Ref:

http://resources.metmuseum.org/resources/metpublications/pdf/Some_Notes_on_Parrying_Daggers_and_Poniards_The_Metropolitan_Museum_Journal_v_12_1977.pdf

the first picture on the left (marked as incorrect for kitchen use) shows the correct way to hold a knife for killing a man. the one on the far right ( the correct way to hold a kitchen knife) shows exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you willlose it. this is exactly what i described, thank you steve for providing this pictoral aid.

 

[frank raud]

the first picture on the left (marked as incorrect for kitchen use) shows the correct way to hold a knife for killing a man. the one on the far right ( the correct way to hold a kitchen knife) shows exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you willlose it. this is exactly what i described, thank you steve for providing this pictoral aid.

Why is there a cast thumb print on the ricasso of a V42 knife?

 

[Steve]

It's off-topic, but... I'm going to ask anyway. Why?

When you put your index finger on top, it turns your wrist over... changes the orientation of your wrist and hand.

I am by no means a chef - I think if I take it out of the package before microwaving it, that counts as cooking from scratch. But blademaking is a hobby I've enjoyed for a lot of years.
While I don't know about the grip, I'd consider that a poor example of a chefs knife, mostly due to one thing. The bolster. Over time, with repeated sharpening, the blade will become narrower. At which point the bolster will contact the cutting surface but the edge will not. Rendering it impossible to perform the classic cut, where the blade rocks on the belly of the knife.

Can you share some examples of what you'd consider to be a good chef's knife? I can't speak to the quality of that particular knife, but the shape and construction of the bolster looks pretty much like a classic, Western chef's knife. Many very high quality chef's knifes have that basic profile.

There are some forged knives that have a smaller bolster, but I think those are generally more inspired by Asian designs.

You can also get a laser cut, stamped blade that's just fine for most people that doesn't have a bolster at all. I have a stamped bread knife that cost me $25 and does a great job.

 

[jstacy1228]

When you put your index finger on top, it turns your wrist over... changes the orientation of your wrist and hand.


Can you share some examples of what you'd consider to be a good chef's knife? I can't speak to the quality of that particular knife, but the shape and construction of the bolster looks pretty much like a classic, Western chef's knife. Many very high quality chef's knifes have that basic profile.

There are some forged knives that have a smaller bolster, but I think those are generally more inspired by Asian designs.

You can also get a laser cut, stamped blade that's just fine for most people that doesn't have a bolster at all. I have a stamped bread knife that cost me $25 and does a great job.

I once got a some kind of handforged Polish knife from an elderly gent who wanted to give a gift to my SIL for her help on a case of his regarding consumer law. She knew I was into knives, so now I have a pretty decent, unique knife made by a guy in a Polish village.

 

[Dirty Dog]

When you put your index finger on top, it turns your wrist over... changes the orientation of your wrist and hand.

That makes sense.

Can you share some examples of what you'd consider to be a good chef's knife? I can't speak to the quality of that particular knife, but the shape and construction of the bolster looks pretty much like a classic, Western chef's knife. Many very high quality chef's knifes have that basic profile.

Overall quality is going to be more about the materials and the grind. If you removed the bolster below the handle, so the edge went straight off the back of the blade, it would fix my objection.
Kind of like this:

As the blade wears, you will still be able to make contact with the surface with the entire edge.

There are some forged knives that have a smaller bolster, but I think those are generally more inspired by Asian designs.

I think the other major factor is the grind. Most chef knives are a flat grind, tapering from the spine to the edge. This lets you put on a very fine edge, which is obviously good. The problem is that food tends to stick to the blade, basically like a vacuum seal. That's why a lot of blades these days have those little divots carved out of the flat. Better than a flat grind, I think, is a technique that involves a flat grind, followed by a very very slight hollow grind along the flat of the blade, then finishing with a flat grind from there to the edge. I've not yet been able to perform this grind to any degree of satisfaction.

You can also get a laser cut, stamped blade that's just fine for most people that doesn't have a bolster at all. I have a stamped bread knife that cost me $25 and does a great job.

I don't think the bolster is an issue (or as big an issue) with other styles of knives. Because so far as I know, you don't cut by rocking on the belly of the blade with other styles.
But stamped? Really? Laser cut I can understand, since you're just cutting the blank out of the steel, then grinding. But a truly stamped blade strikes me as an awful idea. I guess if they're just stamping the blade shape and then grinding, it's probably not really any different to any other method.

 

[Steve]

That makes sense.

Overall quality is going to be more about the materials and the grind. If you removed the bolster below the handle, so the edge went straight off the back of the blade, it would fix my objection.
Kind of like this:
View attachment 27766
As the blade wears, you will still be able to make contact with the surface with the entire edge.

I think the other major factor is the grind. Most chef knives are a flat grind, tapering from the spine to the edge. This lets you put on a very fine edge, which is obviously good. The problem is that food tends to stick to the blade, basically like a vacuum seal. That's why a lot of blades these days have those little divots carved out of the flat. Better than a flat grind, I think, is a technique that involves a flat grind, followed by a very very slight hollow grind along the flat of the blade, then finishing with a flat grind from there to the edge. I've not yet been able to perform this grind to any degree of satisfaction.

I don't think the bolster is an issue (or as big an issue) with other styles of knives. Because so far as I know, you don't cut by rocking on the belly of the blade with other styles.
But stamped? Really? Laser cut I can understand, since you're just cutting the blank out of the steel, then grinding. But a truly stamped blade strikes me as an awful idea. I guess if they're just stamping the blade shape and then grinding, it's probably not really any different to any other method

Alright. In a thread where you’re dumping on a new user for being uneducated, you’re speaking with authority on something you’ve already said you don’t use.

 

[tim po]

Well, considering that he doesn't understand statistics, the idea that his average isn't good probably doesn't trouble him at all.

View attachment 27759


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Sorry (not sorry) but you are still not as educated on this topic as you think. The "thumb on the flat of the blade" method of holding a fighting knife is comparatively common. Most notably for me, it was a technique taught sometimes for renaissance era left-handed/parrying daggers.



2. G. dall'Agocchie, Dell'arte di scrimia (Venetia, I572) ff. 35 verso-36: "Lep[ido Ranieri]: As for holding it [the dagger] in hand, how do you want it to be held? Gio[vanni dall'Agocchie]: Almost flatly [vs. enemy], directing its right edge toward the right side; in this way you will have the palm freer to beat off the enemy's sword outward, especially its point; besides, having propped up the dagger [blade] with your thumb, you will have more strength in parrying above the head; and moreover, holding it as I have just said, the dagger hilt [guard] will give a better protection."
Some Notes on Parrying Daggers and Poniards
LEONID TARASSUK
Research Associate, Department of Arms and Armor, The Metropolitan Museum of Art

Ref:

http://resources.metmuseum.org/resources/metpublications/pdf/Some_Notes_on_Parrying_Daggers_and_Poniards_The_Metropolitan_Museum_Journal_v_12_1977.pdf

no way is always right or always wrong. but i was certainly not considering renaissance era parrying daggers. look guys, my point was a simple one, not meant to cast myself as an expert or throw anyone else down. i'm not here to win, or even to market myself( i'm not in any of this to earn money), just share and discuss. and i definetly don't give a hoot about how to properly chop veggies. i don't really understand why some people get so uppity and insecure. perhaps it is just the way i made my original point that was unclear, or perhaps it is because i have not spoken of my experience and credentials that people like you and rank fraud over there think i am an easy target. same as in real life, i don;t mind when predators single me out. i have long accepted my role as equalizer, and i don't really need any new friends.

plenty of people grow up tough and handle knives all the time. they know who they are, and they won't be on here asking what kind of knife to carry for self-defense, as if the right knife will be the magic for someone who is not naturally cut-out for fighting. don't know about you but i began this path at 8 years old because Sho Kosugi was so cool. i continued it as a teenager and into my twenties because i was concerned, for myself and those around me. i knew i would never be 'the tough guy' who can just overpower people. since then i have practiced a very wide array of skills in the name of survival preparedness, and offer instruction when it is asked of me.

the knife issue actually really is something i run into over and over again, most often with younger people who have the same concerns i had at their age. first thing i ask them, is 'where is your knife?' if their answer is 'in my pocket', i tell them to pull it out, and while they are stuffing their hand down into their pocket i draw mine (there are a few ways i carry, all designed for concealment and easy access with either hand from any position), turn it handle side out and fake- jab them in the gut before they even have their hand back out of their pocket. thats lesson 1.
then i tell them to open their knife and hold it as though they intend to threaten me and scare me away. every single time i have done this, the untrained person holds the knife in front of them with their thumb on the spine of the blade. and every time, i snatch that knife right out of their hand before they even know what happened. that's lesson two. ( and no, i've never been cut doing this)

an exacto knife can kill. self defense skills are more about mind than body. most people after twenty some years have a good enough grasp on how to move that a knife will be an asset more than a liability, but not all people. and the ones who need to seek advice online belong in the latter category, and should be offered good advice. i do not think it is true that any knife will make any person safer, and in fact i think it is dangerous to tell people that.

 

[tim po]

Here are the stats, make of a single line what you will. Ps. No percentages were used in my comment, just a single number. Homicides by murder weapon in the U.S. 2019 | Statista

so 1700 so people killed by knives. that may be fact, but it tells no story. how many people were attacked by knives and not killed? how many of them defended themselves successfully? or how about how many of those deaths were dealt by a knife that the victim brought to the party?? we don't know those numbers or so many more that would paint a more complete picture, and thus have relevance beyond a cheap way to sum up a point.
no numbers have meaning unless compared to the rest of the numbers.

 

[frank raud]

so 1700 so people killed by knives. that may be fact, but it tells no story. how many people were attacked by knives and not killed? how many of them defended themselves successfully? or how about how many of those deaths were dealt by a knife that the victim brought to the party?? we don't know those numbers or so many more that would paint a more complete picture, and thus have relevance beyond a cheap way to sum up a point.
no numbers have meaning unless compared to the rest of the numbers.

googling statistics to support your argument is weak. stop that.

So pointing out a single line item is not sufficient because we have no other numbers to compare it with? Kind of the definition of statistics. But using statistics is weak. Which one is it? By the way, I notice that in your list of questions to obscure the reality of a single line item, you neglected to include the question I originally asked ( nor have you made an attempt to answer) how many of those people who killed with a knife had previous training? And no, the answer is not to be found in line items of a government report. But as you insist that a person must be trained in order to use a knife outside of a kitchen or a whittling competition, it shouldn't be difficult for you to make an "educated" guess on how many were trained. I'm sure we won't agree on the percentage.

 

[tim po]

So pointing out a single line item is not sufficient because we have no other numbers to compare it with? Kind of the definition of statistics. But using statistics is weak. Which one is it? By the way, I notice that in your list of questions to obscure the reality of a single line item, you neglected to include the question I originally asked ( nor have you made an attempt to answer) how many of those people who killed with a knife had previous training? And no, the answer is not to be found in line items of a government report. But as you insist that a person must be trained in order to use a knife outside of a kitchen or a whittling competition, it shouldn't be difficult for you to make an "educated" guess on how many were trained. I'm sure we won't agree on the percentage.

if i have neglected answering your questions, it is because i have mostly stopped reading your posts, in favor of keeping up with more articulate and thoughtful responses (even if they disagree with me too). how can i possibly answer your ridiculous question? as you stated, the answer is NOT provided in the report you offered, so what kind of question is that? what are you trying to prove, that i'm not omniscient? you got me, can't deny it.

i never 'insisted' that no one can use a knife effectively without training. you insisted that i was implying that, and have aggressively pursued YOUR point at my expense.

rely on googled stats, if you wish, in lieu of actual experience if you don't have any, but it's kind of a cop out to wield them like weapons online, we can't even know if those numbers are real or accurate, or just selected out of a certain context. and as you have just pointed out, there are many unanswerable questions that would need to be answered before we can define that context.

 

[frank raud]

how can i possibly answer your ridiculous question? as you stated, the answer is NOT provided in the report you offered, so what kind of question is that?

It's called an opinion, obviously you have one

i never 'insisted' that no one can use a knife effectively without training.

"I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife."

 

[lklawson]

no way is always right or always wrong. but i was certainly not considering renaissance era parrying daggers.

I wrote that this was what was "most notably for me." I.E. what was most interesting to me, not that it was the only example or that there are no modern representations. On the contrary, as I wrote, the "thumb on the flat of the blade" method of holding a fighting knife is comparatively common and is represented in many modern systems. It's called everything from "Foil Grip" to "Side Hold" to "Modified Saber Grip."

WWII Combatives:

Or this one from Bloody Brazilian Knife Fightin' Techniques:

Or WR Mann, a Silat practitioner:

Or the Foil Grip from James Loriega's "Sevillian Steel" where he writes, "Apart from the standard saber grip, other grips seen in combat are the foil grip and the inverted, or icepick, grip. The foil grip is favored by those navajeros who prefer thrusting to slashing."

Or from Lt. Col. Dwight McLemore's "Paradoxes of a Deadly Myth"

The point is that the "thumb on the side" is really common an in complete contradiction to your claim that it is "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it." The assertion is simply wrong.

 

[lklawson]

i never 'insisted' that no one can use a knife effectively without training. you insisted that i was implying that

To be fair, what you wrote was:
"I do not agree that any weapon automatically makes any person more effective at defending themselves without any training. some people, certain weapons? yeah. a knife, no training whatsoever? probably just gonna piss him off more, and now he has a knife." Which seems pretty close to "no one can use a knife effectively without training."

rely on googled stats, if you wish, in lieu of actual experience

There's a reason that the phrase "the plural of anecdote is not data" exists.

 

[Steve]

I wrote that this was what was "most notably for me." I.E. what was most interesting to me, not that it was the only example or that there are no modern representations. On the contrary, as I wrote, the "thumb on the flat of the blade" method of holding a fighting knife is comparatively common and is represented in many modern systems. It's called everything from "Foil Grip" to "Side Hold" to "Modified Saber Grip."

WWII Combatives:

Or this one from Bloody Brazilian Knife Fightin' Techniques:

Or WR Mann, a Silat practitioner:
View attachment 27770

Or the Foil Grip from James Loriega's "Sevillian Steel" where he writes, "Apart from the standard saber grip, other grips seen in combat are the foil grip and the inverted, or icepick, grip. The foil grip is favored by those navajeros who prefer thrusting to slashing."

Or from Lt. Col. Dwight McLemore's "Paradoxes of a Deadly Myth"

The point is that the "thumb on the side" is really common an in complete contradiction to your claim that it is "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it." The assertion is simply wrong.

Really interesting read. Thanks for sharing all of that.

 

[Oily Dragon]

There's a reason that the phrase "the plural of anecdote is not data" exists.

Yes, and that reason is false.

I hate to be the person who has to inform you of that fact, but it's the truth.

Don't forget: The plural of anecdote is data

This purpose of this point is to preserve the true meaning of Raymond Wolfinger’s oft-misquoted aphorism.

blog.danwin.com

 

[lklawson]

Yes, and that reason is false.

I hate to be the person who has to inform you of that fact, but it's the truth.

Don't forget: The plural of anecdote is data

This purpose of this point is to preserve the true meaning of Raymond Wolfinger’s oft-misquoted aphorism.

blog.danwin.com

The fact is that it really depends on how you define "plural." Sufficient number of [fill-in-the-blank] will become statistically significant. That is 100% true.

But, as it applies to this thread, one person's personal experiences seldom rises to the point of statistical significance.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The fact is that it really depends on how you define "plural." Sufficient number of [fill-in-the-blank] will become statistically significant. That is 100% true.

But, as it applies to this thread, one person's personal experiences seldom rises to the point of statistical significance.

But you misquoted Raymond Wolfinger, so as it applies to all threads going forward, you should never, ever say "the plural of anecdote is not evidence/data" again. It's totally wrong.

It's one of the best examples of the Mandela effect I've ever seen.

 

[lklawson]

But you misquoted Raymond Wolfinger, so as it applies to all threads going forward, you should never, ever say "the plural of anecdote is not evidence/data" again. It's totally wrong.

But you're missing the point. The point is that, as it applies to this thread, one person's personal experiences seldom rises to the point of statistical significance and that's the reason the misquote exists.

It's one of the best examples of the Mandela effect I've ever seen.

Play it again, Sam.

 

[Oily Dragon]

But you're missing the point. The point is that, as it applies to this thread, one person's personal experiences seldom rises to the point of statistical significance and that's the reason the misquote exists.


Play it again, Sam.