Um... I'm doing what?
I am not a chef. I made that clear. I do use knives. I see how other people use them. And I've been making blades for some 20 years. So I do think I have some idea what works and what doesn't, or what might be problematic. If you think any point I've made has been incorrect, I'm happy to hear why. I've even asked you specific questions. In the post that apparently pushed your buttons, all I did was try to answer questions you asked.
I agree on this point where a dagger is concerned, i would still hold it thumb-over, but that is what i am used to. you. i typically do not expect a dagger to be chosen for self-defense because they are illegal to carry in most places. but again, my response was to the original context of this thread, not directed at people who train in specific knife arts.I wrote that this was what was "most notably for me." I.E. what was most interesting to me, not that it was the only example or that there are no modern representations. On the contrary, as I wrote, the "thumb on the flat of the blade" method of holding a fighting knife is comparatively common and is represented in many modern systems. It's called everything from "Foil Grip" to "Side Hold" to "Modified Saber Grip."
WWII Combatives:
Or this one from Bloody Brazilian Knife Fightin' Techniques:
Or WR Mann, a Silat practitioner:
View attachment 27770
Or the Foil Grip from James Loriega's "Sevillian Steel" where he writes, "Apart from the standard saber grip, other grips seen in combat are the foil grip and the inverted, or icepick, grip. The foil grip is favored by those navajeros who prefer thrusting to slashing."
Or from Lt. Col. Dwight McLemore's "Paradoxes of a Deadly Myth"
The point is that the "thumb on the side" is really common an in complete contradiction to your claim that it is "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it." The assertion is simply wrong.
no, it actually doesn't, unless that is how you already wanted to read into it. note the word' probably' . again, context. it does matter.
Neither the navaja, the bowie, nor the ginunting (all pictured above) are daggers. The "foil grip" (for convenience sake) is applicable to most blade shapes, not just a dagger. I can give more non-dagger examples if you want.
www.personaldefensenetwork.com
I don't know that it's so much you're incorrect, as much as it's so subjective. Better isn't objective... it's a personal preference where there are a lot of really good knives, and they all perform really well over many, many years. And ultimately, given enough time and use, they all wear out. As I said before, the full bolster is really common in Western style chef's knives. I've had one for 15 years (a well worn Wusthof classic, from the same line you posted). I've sharpened it more times than I can remember, and use it just about every day. It has a full bolster and still functions just fine. Holds a great edge, too.
I'm trying to stay out of that entire discussion. FWIW, I think someone who has never held a knife could stab someone... and someone who has trained to stab someone could probably do it a little better.
hold the knife however you want, if you have trained to use it that way. my advice for newbies will always be to hold that knife as tightly and dearly as your hold your life. i am done discussing this point. thank you all for your thoughtful contributions.Neither the navaja, the bowie, nor the ginunting (all pictured above) are daggers. The "foil grip" (for convenience sake) is applicable to most blade shapes, not just a dagger. I can give more non-dagger examples if you want.
"Modified Saber/Pinch GripConventional and Unconventional Knife Grips | Personal Defense Network
Understanding conventional and unconventional knife grips can benefit knife-carrier in a personal protection situation. Learn some techniques from PDN.
The Modified Saber, sometimes called the Foil or Pinch Grip, places the thumb on the side of the blade, orienting the blade horizontally in the hand, with the edge traditionally facing left. A very secure grip with small knives, especially ones with short handles, the pinching force between the thumb and index finger isolates any movement of the blade when applying force to the edge. Inward slashing and especially thrusting are facilitated with this grip, though backhand slashing is limited. Perhaps this grip’s strongest attribute is the ability it offers the user to pick up and strongly thrust any small knife or pointed object."
View attachment 27776
"Forward Knife Grip Technique: Modified SaberKnife Grip Tactics, Techniques, Styles, and Hand-sizing the custom knife by Jay Fisher
Techniques, styles, methods of gripping a tactical combat knife for the professional with illustrations, descriptions, hand sizing methods, pros and cons, advantages and disadvantages of particular knife grip techniques.www.jayfisher.com
A grip is considered forward when the blade opposes the little finger. The modified saber grip technique is the same as a hammer grip, but in the modified saber grip, the thumb is placed on the side of the blade. The advantage here is the same as the hammer, in that the grip is very strong, and it is stronger than the traditional saber grip technique as more of the hand (the thumb) is actually wrapped around the knife generally. The modified saber grip also forces the hand to naturally orient the knife in a horizontal or slashing position if the hand is held in traditional square-fist orientation: the strongest, locked wrist punching position of martial arts. "
View attachment 27775
I agree it's very subjective, and I think I explicitly stated that in at least one post. It's entirely possible that my concern about the bolster only arises because I sharpen on a belt. Which removes more metal than hand sharpening.
I can't recall doing this. Can you enlighten me?
You guys are all having a go at @tim po , and now you’re speaking with authority on chefs knives which you said you don’t use. I think it’s kind of hypocritical. That’s it. I’ve moved on. If you’re still confused, shoot me a dm and I’ll try to explain it to you.
That was a nice clip of Lamont losing his stick. I've never sparred hard core, Dog Bros. style ...but even in light sparring I've lost a stick like that often enough ...too often. Especially wearing heavy gloves. But I must say, Lamont's recovery was inspired. Spontaneous. Beautiful.
I know, it's impressive how fast he reacted and got the cane back.That was a nice clip of Lamont losing his stick. I've never sparred hard core, Dog Bros. style ...but even in light sparring I've lost a stick like that often enough ...too often. Especially wearing heavy gloves. But I must say, Lamont's recovery was inspired. Spontaneous. Beautiful.
How I want? I like what Dwight called "The Universal Grip." I don't much favor the foil grip. But, even so, it is a 100% valid method.
Or of it works. "If you have trained to use it that way" doesn't have to have anything to do with it. Does it work for you? Then use it.
Which is also perfectly valid and a common instruction, often favored by WWII Combatives instructors who, ims, sometimes referred to it as "the convulsive grip."
Me as much as anyone else. But I'm not "dumping on" him nor "having a go." I specifically took exception to his claim that a thumb-on-the-flat-of-the-knife grip was, as he wrote, quoting him, "exactly the way not to hold a knife for fighting, or you will lose it." The assertion is simply wrong. I've given at least 9 different, unique, examples proving that the technique is both valid and common. Nevertheless, he has yet to admit the validity. The closest I've gotten to a mea culpa is when he wrote, "hold the knife however you want, if you have trained to use it that way."
It brings up some very interesting lines of questioning for me. I think I know the answers but I'm going to speak with some friends about what I'm thinking.
Sounds good. I also disagreed with his claim that folks holding a knife are probably going to stab people wrong. Correcting statements is 90% of dialogue on this forum.
I've never ground in dimples either. I merely pointed out why lots of chefs knives have them. The (relatively few) chefs knives I have made have been the classic flat grind from spine to edge. I also do not sell my knives. I've given quite a few to family and friends, or donated them as prizes.
"You guys"? I don't believe I have done any such thing. I am to blame for anything anyone posts that you disagree with?
I know blade making.
Purely for context, I looked into it out of curiosity, and Dirty Dog's first post in this thread (since Tim Po came), was the one directed to you asking about knives. It seems to be lawson/frank that are arguing with him. I checked his other thread in case I was missing something, and there's a lot of people that commented there but dirty dog isn't one.
Oops, read this after I went through and responded to your other post. Oh well, kept me a bit busy during my lunch.Sounds good. I also disagreed with his claim that folks holding a knife are probably going to stab people wrong. Correcting statements is 90% of dialogue on this forum.
For what it's worth, it was the disconnect between the comments about the user's education and general knowledge (not the claims themselves), and then DD saying (paraphrasing), "I don't cook, but I'm going to tell you at length why that very common and popular design for a chef's knife is a bad design for cooks." I'm sure he thought he was being really helpful. As I said, I'm game to help figure out if he's right or not. I cook and bake all the time. Since he doesn't cook, I'm more than happy to give him some practical feedback, if he's interested in making a knife for me. I'd treasure the gift.
Now, I hope that explains things well enough. If @Dirty Dog wants to know where to send that knife, or there is more to discuss, I recommend it not be done on the public forum.
