Dropping the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro Hyung

[miguksaram]

To me, the Chil Sung, Yuk Ro, and Hwa Sun Hyung are just bad Tai Chi mixed with bad karate moves. I do not find the forms stimulating or particularly difficult. They are no different than the various sets used in TKD - a bad attempt to replace the classical forms that were born out of actual combat. What use are forms made up of random, purposeless, techniques?

Which forms were born out of actual combat?

 

[MBuzzy]

I fear that a discussion of the history and lineage of most forms is probably a discussion for another thread....as it deals a great deal with widely debated history.

But I think that we can all agree with no problems that that Chil Sungs and Yuk Ros WERE NOT created directly from combat, since they were created by Hwang Kee in the 40s or 50s. Now, they may be based on movements from other forms or based on fighting techniques that were proven to work....

 

[astrobiologist]

I was present when Master Jay S. Penfil showed Master J.B. Yager some of his bunkai for Chil Sung Il Lo. I've always wondered what some of the movements may possibly mean when truly analyzed.

If you are seeking for less forms, but more knowledge of those forms you keep, then I don't see a problem with that.

I personally don't want to remove any of the forms I am currently training with, but I do want to get a deeper understanding of each and every form and technique I use.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

I was present when Master Jay S. Penfil showed Master J.B. Yager some of his bunkai for Chil Sung Il Lo. I've always wondered what some of the movements may possibly mean when truly analyzed.

If you are seeking for less forms, but more knowledge of those forms you keep, then I don't see a problem with that.

I personally don't want to remove any of the forms I am currently training with, but I do want to get a deeper understanding of each and every form and technique I use.

I can arrange that...

 

[astrobiologist]

I can arrange that...

:jediduel:

...and for that I am thankful

 

[tsdmgk1336]

:jediduel:

...and for that I am thankful

Let me tell you you want find a better Master in Bunkai than Master Penfil. he has opened my eyes a lot...

 

[JoelD]

Question for you tsdmgk1336... Does the Mi Guk Kwan practice all 7 Chil sungs AND all 6 Yuk Ros?

I have heard of a couple other orgs that do some of the chil sungs but not all and those like in Master C.S. Kim's organization that dropped them altogether.

 

[JWLuiza]

I was looking at the way that I learned the forms and looking at how they are being practiced on the net and realized that these forms are vibrant and active within the federation. They are living creatures and the version I learned was a thing of the times. Hell, they are the chil sungs of ten years ago.

Also, they are redundant. So much of it is mix and matched from other hyung in the curriculum that it just doesn't make sense to keep practicing them in my dojang.

I've always said that the Chil Sung and Yuk Ros would be great as a martial art all by themselves. Combined with the classical hyungs, its just too much, IMHO.

I just started with a new Fed. that includes the Chil Sung (only through O Ro) but not the Yuk Ro. I remembered this thread and wanted to dredge it up.

Like my esteemed friend and colleague from Hawaii nee Alaska and elsewhere, I've turned my eyes towards an Okinawan view of training, hyung, and applications. Heck, if there were a Koryu Uchinadi group in Pittsburgh, I would undoubtedly be there.

However, coming from a very early offshoot of the MDK, I wanted to explore my Korean heritage a bit more. I do agree with there being too many forms in many schools, but I love forms. I love applications even more. I am finding some value in the Chil Sungs so far... even a few mechanics that are unique or not as accentuated in my other curriculum. I haven't done too much application work yet, but have some ideas.

 

[Makalakumu]

It takes a different mindset in order to train a lot of hyung. You've got to pick and choose applications from the various hyungs you practice and then drill the hell out of them. It's possible to train all of the applications for all of the hyungs, but that is a lifetime of work, something that I would consider a Master level of study.

Essentially, I focus on the following empty hand forms.

Pinan 1-5
Naihanchi 1-3
Bassai Dai and Sho
Chinto
Rohai
Wansu
Jitte
Jion
Kusanku
Seisan
Gojushiho

I know the bunkai for applications for the Pinan series most intimately because that is what I teach the most. The farther we get up the list, the less familiar I am with the applications. From that list, there literally is about eight styles worth of information here.

So, where do the Chil Sung hyung fall into this picture? I see them as their own stand alone style. You could practice those seven kata and drill the bunkai and really have some awesome self defense. It would be a lifetime of work because those are LONG hyungs.

On top of all of the other hyung though? How many lifetimes do you got? See what I mean?

 

[JWLuiza]

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I think if you boil it down, you could get by with one hyung only.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Interesting. The school I started at taught the Chil Sung forms 1 and 2 just after the Pyung Ahn forms. It felt to me like another beginning in forms. Like it started the spiritual end of the martial arts. It's what got me deeper into meditations and expanding my martial arts knowledge. The Chil Sung forms introduced me into another aspect of the martial arts. To say the Chil Sung forms have no practical application is to also say we should not practice our one steps. One steps are far less practical than any form I know. As a matter of fact, to many students, one steps may be dangerous. You certainly don't want to teach self defense by teaching one steps but that is what is being done. It is explained later as a student advances, but nobody tells a white belt that our one steps are merely an exercise and hold very little practical self defense techniques.

The school I learned the Chil Sung forms at closed, I am at a different Tang Soo Do school which does not teach them. One day after class, I was performing Chil Sung Sam Ro. Everybody was looking at me and asked me what the heck that was. They all wanted to learn it. I love the Chil Sung forms and will practice them as long as my body allows me to. I now practice my Chil Sung's regularly before and after class. I am extremely grateful that I was taught them.

 

[EMST930]

"One steps are far less practical than any form I know. As a matter of fact, to many students, one steps may be dangerous. You certainly don't want to teach self defense by teaching one steps but that is what is being done. It is explained later as a student advances, but nobody tells a white belt that our one steps are merely an exercise and hold very little practical self defense techniques."

I don't mean to hijack this thread in a different direction, but I had to respond about the one-steps. Not sure how your school practices them, but they are a VERY important step on the way to fighting. For our students we stress that One-step fighting is the safest way to develop body awareness and distance control. They help develop the basic footwork of lateral movement and balance and give you a living, breathing target to focus technique toward. They force you to develop technique equally on both sides of the body without favoritism and to practice a wider range of technique (also without favoritism.) It is also a drilled, controlled way to develop discipline and respect for one's opponent.

My side note on the Chil Sungs--there are few things more painful than watching them done poorly...karate hell in my opinion would be a neverending stream of young children flopping through the Chil Sungs.

 

[tsdclaflin]

I like the Chil Sungs and in my recent move, I sought out a school that still teaches them.

 

[kbarrett]

I like the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho Hyungs, they bring that element of the Shalion Long Fist into the Tang Soo Do style, there's nothing rong with the regular Hyungs, but I do believe the Chil Sung, Yuk Rho, and Hwa Sun Hyung add the missing Chinese essence to Tang Soo Do, and these hyungs where created by GM Hwang Kee.

Ken